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Author Topic: Argyll CMS  (Read 18705 times)

Lundberg02

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Re: Argyll CMS
« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2014, 06:24:09 pm »

Where is the documentation, now that you mention it?  I wanted to install it because it looks on paper to be useful. I was pleased to discover that dispcalgui has a profile inspector and what looks like a gamut comparator, and it opened my display profile by default. I'm not happy with ColorSync Utilities.  For instance it tries to tell me that my display gamut is larger than AdobeRGB, even Dell wouldn't try to tell me that.
 I take that Mr Gill is the developer and is touchy about geekiness. I spent a thousand years of my life being a hardware/software integration engineer among other things, and I am quite familiar with software developers and their quirks. When I encountered a problem, I would explain it to a guy we called "No Op", because that was almost without exception, his fix.
Our typical problems were, factor of two, polarity, no default, input or output out of range, global/local variable confusion, overflows, machine language subroutines, and modes not locked against transients.  So I don't need attitude.  But I applaud the hard work that has gone into this app.
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fdisilvestro

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Re: Argyll CMS
« Reply #21 on: September 15, 2014, 07:46:08 pm »

For instance it tries to tell me that my display gamut is larger than AdobeRGB, even Dell wouldn't try to tell me that.
 

I don't know about your monitor, but it is actually possible to have a display gamut larger than AdobeRGB

Lundberg02

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Re: Argyll CMS
« Reply #22 on: September 15, 2014, 10:41:37 pm »

Well sure it is, but ColorSync tries to show me that my U2413 is about 110% of aRGB, and Dell only claims 98%.  I'll believe if dispcalgui says it too, maybe. I'll also check it Win XP with Profile Inspector.

I did find some documentation for dispcal, but it's more or less a FAQ page on the home site.
I guess Mr Gill doesn't really need to worry about a GUI, since dispcal has been created, but command line apps are so 90s.
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fdisilvestro

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Re: Argyll CMS
« Reply #23 on: September 15, 2014, 10:52:36 pm »

Well sure it is, but ColorSync tries to show me that my U2413 is about 110% of aRGB, and Dell only claims 98%.  I'll believe if dispcalgui says it too, maybe. I'll also check it Win XP with Profile Inspector.


I'm not sure about the figure that is being reported. The comparative volume of the display gamut vs. Adobe RGB gamut could well be 110%, and it might cover 98% of Adobe RGB  (maybe some colors in Adobe RGB are out of the gamut of the monitor). Otherwise, 110% of Adobe RGB does not make much sense.

I guess Mr Gill doesn't really need to worry about a GUI, since dispcal has been created, but command line apps are so 90s.

Just remember that Dispcal guy covers only a subset of the functionality of Argyll CMS

Regards

Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Argyll CMS
« Reply #24 on: September 16, 2014, 07:58:02 am »

You must be joking - switching these goddamn' drivers every time you switch from ArgyllCMS to other profiling software is a real PITA ;)
Why would you need any other profiling software?  ;D  Changing the drivers is trivial in any event.
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howardm

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Re: Argyll CMS
« Reply #25 on: September 16, 2014, 11:41:05 am »

Mr. Lundberg,

I'm astounded by the rudeness and easy dismissal of thousands of hours of software development work by Mr. Gill, including
custom device drivers just because XRite is a bunch of d*cks and decided to lock-out the CM Display.

You drive a car who's interface was fixed in the 1920's, same thing for many other 'devices'.

If you want to *donate* X000's of hours building the be-all,end-all GUI, go ahead esp since you have upteem experience
with software and hardware but apparently have never dealt w/ a  Unix system.   You can see already that just getting a
good dispcalGUI is *A LOT* of work.  But that isn't enough, you need it all pre-digested and 'click here' when you're delving
into some moderately esoteric color issues.  If you've been around real engineers, you know that they write tools to get the
job done.  GUI programming is hard (esp. multiplatform) and doesn't actually add much 'value'; I'd rather the tools be improved.

</rant>

Lundberg02

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Re: Argyll CMS
« Reply #26 on: September 16, 2014, 05:45:30 pm »

I have lots of experience with Unix systems and so does everyone, but they have GUIs. They're called Windows and OS X.
 The only way any wonder app will have broad acceptance is with a solid GUI. If you don't realize that you will never sell one.
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Lundberg02

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Re: Argyll CMS
« Reply #27 on: September 16, 2014, 06:46:58 pm »

I'm not sure about the figure that is being reported. The comparative volume of the display gamut vs. Adobe RGB gamut could well be 110%, and it might cover 98% of Adobe RGB  (maybe some colors in Adobe RGB are out of the gamut of the monitor). Otherwise, 110% of Adobe RGB does not make much sense.

Just remember that Dispcal guy covers only a subset of the functionality of Argyll CMS

Regards

The profile inspector in dispcalgui, to my amazement, DOES show the factory profile for the Dell U2413 is larger than AdobeRGB 1998 on the red side and down to the blue vertex. Although I apparently don't have the right VRML viewer to rotate it around, the missing 2% is probably down in the blue region somewhere. Thank you for the insight that it is possible for a color space to be larger and smaller at the same time. Just never thought of it that way, probably a mental block from seeing so many 2D representations.
I have another viewer somewhere and I might even be able to do it with Dry Creek.
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fdisilvestro

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Re: Argyll CMS
« Reply #28 on: September 16, 2014, 07:51:30 pm »

Thank you for the insight that it is possible for a color space to be larger and smaller at the same time.

Hi, sorry for being pedantic, but it is not a matter of being larger and smaller at the same time, the idea is that a larger space (3D volume) not necessarilly encompass a smaller space entirely. This is very common when you compare output/printer gamuts with working spaces such as Adobe RGB

The attached image shows two gamuts, where one is considerably larger (wireframe), but the smaller 3D gamut (solid) has a region in the yellows that is outside the gamut of the larger space

Hening Bettermann

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Re: Argyll CMS
« Reply #29 on: September 17, 2014, 12:24:06 pm »

> The only way any wonder app will have broad acceptance is with a solid GUI. If you don't realize that you will never sell one.

Graeme does not try to sell his app, he gives it away for free! It is 'geeks' who write the programs we use - what would we do without them? Blaming them for being geeky is both absurd and impudent.

Lundberg02

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Re: Argyll CMS
« Reply #30 on: September 17, 2014, 06:33:19 pm »

Yes, Francisco, I'm aware of the possibility that one wider volume might not encompass all of the smaller. I just wasn't thinking of that when I thought about Dell's claim of 98% versus its actual volume being larger. You'd think their marketing people would rethink  their approach to bragging about gamut.

Hening: If he wants to be a reclusive genius writing software for his own pleasure, fine. It will never be used by many people who would and should use it, if it never has a decent GUI.
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MarkM

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Re: Argyll CMS
« Reply #31 on: September 17, 2014, 06:55:53 pm »

Hening: If he wants to be a reclusive genius writing software for his own pleasure, fine. It will never be used by many people who would and should use it, if it never has a decent GUI.

I really don't understand where you're coming from. A lot of people use command line tools because they are more flexible than applications that tie you to the limitations of a GUI. It's not a poor-man's substitute; it's a different approach that solves different problems. Try piping the data from something like ColorThink to your favorite 3d package. ColorThink has a gorgeous interface, but what if you need to see the model with different lighting? Or want a cutaway? Or want to create a different projections. You're SOL because the interface limits you to the output the developer coded. With command line tools you can just pipe output to another process or you can integrate them into whatever workflow you like.  

For example, choose your favorite GUI tool that can control an i1 or similar and get it to make this: http://visual.ly/24-crayons

This took a few minutes and about 10 lines of python with Argyll piped to Nodebox.

Despite your background in engineering, you clearly have no knowledge of Unix history or philosophy, and until you have a better handle on it, your arguments don't carry much weight. You've just figured out (with a lot of hand-holding) how to install the damned thing and now you are making predictions about it's user base. It's really out of line.

You've been given free software and free support from people who are trying to help you. If you don't like the software, choose something with a GUI like the offerings from X-rite and be happy. Although I can't speak for Graeme, my suspicion is that he is more interested in supporting serious work than achieving a popular user base among the general public.  And for what it's worth, it's my impression that among power users Argyll is widely-used and admired.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2014, 07:45:49 pm by MarkM »
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GWGill

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Re: Argyll CMS
« Reply #32 on: October 14, 2014, 01:50:44 am »


An updated guide for installing on OS X is here.

Any errors or omissions, please let me know.
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GWGill

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Re: Argyll CMS
« Reply #33 on: October 14, 2014, 01:53:10 am »

The only way any wonder app will have broad acceptance is with a solid GUI.
I agree, and rest assured that any version of ArgyllCMS I create that has a GUI, will cost you money.
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GWGill

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Re: Argyll CMS
« Reply #34 on: October 14, 2014, 01:59:04 am »

You must be joking - switching these goddamn' drivers every time you switch from ArgyllCMS to other profiling software is a real PITA ;)
It's swings and roundabouts - when nothing grabs the instrument permanently on OS X it works well. If something does (like a system driver or an X-Rite daemon), it's actually harder in OS X because there's no built in facility to swap drivers like there is on MSWin, instead you have to start mucking about as super user to fix it.
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GWGill

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Re: Argyll CMS
« Reply #35 on: October 14, 2014, 02:00:20 am »

 So I don't need attitude.
Then don't be rude when you're looking for help.
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startkapital

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Re: Argyll CMS
« Reply #36 on: October 14, 2014, 08:33:42 pm »

I love working with Argyll CMS that why I donated some money and will donate in the future since I even make profit out of Argyll using it to calibrate clients printers with 3rd party ink systems.

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keith_cooper

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Interesting discussion
« Reply #37 on: October 19, 2014, 05:10:42 pm »

I'm finding this a very interesting discussion, both from the POV of a photographer/printer who has a strong interest in colour management, but also from the POV of someone who spent a significant part of their previous career doing research into usability and human factors (and before that hardware/software design).

The software is very distinctly what in the UK would be called a Marmite product (something you either love or hate ;-).
FYI   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marmite

I'm minded to think that a well designed modern user centred interface would result in a popular product that people would pay for, the current command line style being inherently self limiting with respect to broader user acceptability.
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bye for now -- Keith
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GWGill

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Re: Interesting discussion
« Reply #38 on: October 19, 2014, 06:59:32 pm »

I'm minded to think that a well designed modern user centred interface would result in a popular product that people would pay for, the current command line style being inherently self limiting with respect to broader user acceptability.
MarkM very nicely summarized the tradeoffs between a pure GUI and command line/tool UI, but don't think that the fact that ArgyllCMS has a command line interface implies in any way that I am advocating it as what "everyone should use" - it is that way due to history - my aim was to get to the core of various colour management tasks as efficiently as possible, and a command line based tool has the lowest development overhead. If I had an army of people working for me, then I could command some of them to write a GUI, but alas I only have my own labour to command. I have no disagreement at all that a GUI would broaden its appeal - but I seem to have mislaid my magic wand.
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Lundberg02

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Re: Argyll CMS
« Reply #39 on: October 19, 2014, 10:12:51 pm »

I agree, and rest assured that any version of ArgyllCMS I create that has a GUI, will cost you money.

I buy lots of apps, many of them work well, and I would buy yours. Beauty can be appreciated by the masses if they can access it.
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