Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Colour Management => Topic started by: Lundberg02 on September 12, 2014, 05:22:00 pm

Title: Argyll CMS
Post by: Lundberg02 on September 12, 2014, 05:22:00 pm
Does anyone in this forum use it? If so, how does a non geek install it on a Mac with OS 10.9.4.  The instructions for installing in Mac OSX are not at all helpful. It appears that you should also install dispcalgui to allow use from an interface rather than the command line in Terminal. That installation might be easier but I haven't gotten that far, because googling tells me that I should use Zeroinstall to install Argyll. I found Zeroinstall and installed it, now I can't find it anywhere on my Mac. I'm beginning to think that it put something in the System folder that allows me to use Terminal to execute 0install commands that install apps by using their URLs, but I can't find any list of the commands. Perhaps if I execute "0install man", I'll get something useful. I do know there is a command "0install show" that allegedly opens a window displaying URLs that I suppose you drag into it or something.
I have installed packages in Ubuntu, so I'm not completely unfamiliar with the process, but doing it on a Mac is not transparent to say the least. Even if you id it the geeky way, i would appreciate some guidance.
Title: Re: Argyll CMS
Post by: MarkM on September 12, 2014, 08:17:09 pm
I use it, but I've never used it with dispcalgui — I just use the command line.

ArgyllCMS is actually a little easier than some unix-y packages because you can download Mac binaries here: http://www.argyllcms.com/downloadmac.html

This should be easier that trying to install from source. Once you download the compressed file you should be able to double click it on the mac to get it to decompress into a folder. This folder contains another folder called 'bin' which hold the actual applications. You don't really need to do anything else to use it. If you cd into the folder you can run the individual commands by typing something like:
./extracticc /_D804351.jpg sRGB.icm
(which extracts the embedded icc file from the jpg and saves it).

The instructions about adding a line to your .profile are there for when you don't want to cd into the bin/ directory every time, but would rather simply type a command like extracticc /_D804351.jpg sRGB.icm from anywhere. To allow this OS X needs to know where to look for the commands. To see the current places it looks you can type: echo $PATH into the terminal.  To see your current profile type:

cd
( then hit return—this takes you to your home directory) then type
cat .profile
(hit return and it will show your current .profile file, which is invisible to the finder)

You need to edit that file with something like vi or pico or type:
open .profile
which will probably open it in TextEdit. It's possible if you never do anything like this that .profile doesn't exist, so you'll need to create it. You can do that by typing:
touch .profile
Then running the open command, which will just open the empty file.

Then you need to add a line to this file tell OS X where the Argyll folder lives so it knows to look there when you type commands.

You might add a line like this:
export PATH="$PATH:/Applications/Argyll_V1.6.3/bin"

to the .profile file if you put the Argyll folder in the application directory. The $PATH part tells it to append the new path (/Applications/Argyll_V1.6.3/bin) to the current path so you don't hose the path set up by the OS and other apps.

Not sure if that's clear—I've spent many a late night trying to figure this stuff out so I sympathize with your problem.  
Title: Re: Argyll CMS
Post by: Hening Bettermann on September 12, 2014, 08:23:45 pm
While I was writing my reply, MarkM had posted his. Here is mine anyway.
I have downloaded the Argyll .tar file, expanded it with double-click and placed the result in a folder 'bin' on the first level of my User folder. DispcalGUI comes as a .dmg. The ReadMe file says -Installation: Mac OS X
"Mount the disk image and option-drag its icon to your “Applications” folder. Afterwards open the “dispcalGUI” folder in your “Applications” folder and drag dispcalGUI's icon to the dock if you want easy access."
Well actually, if memory serves me,  I double-clicked the .dmg on the Desktop, then moved the resulting 'dispcalGUI-0install' folder into the Applications folder.
Today, when I try to launch dispcalGUI.app, it tells me that it needs version 2.7 of 0install, which was downloaded and installed by the click of a button.
Now when I launch dispcalGUI.app, it opens a window called '0install'. At bottom right, there is a button 'Run'. I clicked that, and it starts downloading some 60 MB something with Python, then opens a window 'dispcalGUI 2.5.0.0' which seems to be just that.
I have not tried it any further at this time, but if you want it for monitor calibration only, this seems to be it. As to use of the Terminal on the Mac in general, I as a Unix novice found good advice here:
http://mrox.net/blog/2008/06/30/learning-the-terminal-on-the-mac-introduction-and-moving-around/
part 1 does not contain a link to part 2 .. 4, but part 4 does contain backward links to 1..3 :
http://mrox.net/blog/2008/08/09/learning-the-terminal-on-the-mac-part-4-bringing-finder-and-terminal-together/

Good light!
Title: Re: Argyll CMS
Post by: Lundberg02 on September 12, 2014, 11:43:36 pm
Many thanks, guys. I knew some of the real users here in Lula would have gone through the baffles of the  installation process. I wasn't having any luck in CinC.  There's a lot to digest in what you've said, but I think I have the basic guidance I need now. The Zeroinstall page has a a rudimentary user manual, and I now get the basic premise of the install.
I am curious to know if the end result is worth the keyboard whacking to get it in my repertoire. Argyll seems to have a lot of features  to improve profiles.
Title: Re: Argyll CMS
Post by: Ligament on September 13, 2014, 12:22:43 am
I can help you. I, too, found the installation and UI of Argyll to be ridiculously complicated. One must be a computer engineer to install and operate it.

For us mortals on mac OS X, the easiest solution is:

Install WINE emulator

Install CoCa to run within WINE
https://www.winehq.org

Use WINE to create a stand alone application for CoCa. This stand alone application is really an applescript which launches WINE which runs CoCa within it.
http://www.muscallidus.com/coca/

You can now place the "application" in your applications folder or your dock and treat it as any other mac os x application. Double click to launch, and enjoy the CoCa GUI interface.

 
Title: Re: Argyll CMS
Post by: Lundberg02 on September 13, 2014, 01:00:18 am
Oh boy.  I'll have to try to digest that.
Thanks for trying to communicate with an alien species.
 Ok the first link gets you Wine, which is just open source Crossover, which I already have the latest ver of. The second link lets you download CoCa which seems to be an overlay on Argyll. Am I right so far?

If CoCa is a Windows app I'll just install it in Win XP in VMWare Fusion 7. I already use Profile Inspector in XP.
There isn't any way to download the binary Wine anyway, and I can't fool around trying to build it from source.
Title: Re: Argyll CMS
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on September 13, 2014, 07:26:41 am
I've been using it for four years now but run it on a PC and installation & configuration is straight forward.  Sorry that I cannot offer any advice on Mac OS set up but see that others have weighed in.

I run everything from the command line and the only word of advice I have is to create some text templates that you can simple paste in which avoids typo mistakes.
Title: Re: Argyll CMS
Post by: Lundberg02 on September 13, 2014, 03:10:57 pm
I'm just going to install it Win XP I think, when I get around to it. I'm dealing with other techno-strangeness at present.
Title: Re: Argyll CMS
Post by: RHPS on September 14, 2014, 04:31:51 am
If you do decide to run it in Windows you may like to look at a long thread on the Printer Knowledge forum http://www.printerknowledge.com/threads/a-basic-guide-see-post-1-to-setting-up-argyll-cms-profiling-on-your-computer.8570/ This thread contains some batch files that make it much simpler to get started.
Title: Re: Argyll CMS
Post by: Lundberg02 on September 14, 2014, 04:31:50 pm
Thank you for the thread.  I can always count on Lula to get the straight skinny on this stuff. The other forum I visit which shall be nameless unless you know what Cambridge is, offered me suggestions that were almost irrelevant.
Now that I've googled the heck out of this and read here, I may even try installing Argyll in /usr/bin on my Mac.
Title: Re: Argyll CMS
Post by: Lundberg02 on September 14, 2014, 11:11:51 pm
After reading this for the fourth time, I can't understand it.

<Installing the software on Apple OS X


You will need to unpack the downloaded file in the location you have chosen to hold the executable files. Typically this might be in /usr/bin, or perhaps $HOME/bin/, or even $HOME.

You can unpack it by control-click on the downloaded file and “Open With” BOMArchiveHelper or Archive Utility. Drag the resulting folder to where you want it, e.g. into your home folder (/Users/usrnam where usrnam is your username).

Alternatively you can unpack it on the command line using  the command tar -zxf archivename.tgz, which will create a directory Argyll_VX.X.X, where X.X.X is the version number, and the executables will be in Argyll_VX.X.X/bin.

Open a Terminal shell. This will be in Applications->Utilities->Terminal (Dragging it to the dock is a good idea to make it more accessible).

You will have to configure your $PATH environment variable to give access to the executable from your command line environment, by editing your .profile file. You can do this using a graphical editor, by using the open command:

  ~$open .profile

or by using some other editor, such as vi.

And add a line similar to the following line to your .path file

  PATH=$PATH:$HOME/Argyll_VX.X.X/bin

where "$HOME/Argyll_VX.X.X/bin" is the path to the executable directory.>

Why do you need to unpack in /usr/bin and then drag the unpacked file to your username home directory?  You can unpack it anywhere. I unpacked it to the Desktop. /usr/bin contains executables, why shouldn't the Argyll executables stay there if they are unpacked there?
If you install dispcalgui to avoid dealing with the command line, where does it want the Argyll executables and reference files to be, or does it find them no matter where the unpacked folder lives?

 Geekiness is so damn irritating it makes you want to go back to BASIC.
Title: Re: Argyll CMS
Post by: MarkM on September 15, 2014, 01:42:38 am

Why do you need to unpack in /usr/bin and then drag the unpacked file to your username home directory?  You can unpack it anywhere. I unpacked it to the Desktop. /usr/bin contains executables, why shouldn't the Argyll executables stay there if they are unpacked there?
If you install dispcalgui to avoid dealing with the command line, where does it want the Argyll executables

You are right, that is confusing and I think any normal reading of it is contradictory.

Basically you need OS X to find the commands. This means you can either put the executables in a place where it already looks, such as /usr/bin/ or tell it to look in a new place where you put the binaries via a mechanism like the $PATH variable in your .profile file. I prefer the later because I tend to forget where I put things and it's nice to have executables that I think of like applications in the applications folder — things in /usr/bin I tend to treat like system resources. It's completely up to you, however, and sensible people disagree.

One thing to consider — I don't think you can just move the bin folder from Argyll to /usr/bin/ and expect it work. I might be wrong and it might depend on your system, but I think you will need to take the contents of Argyll's bin folder and put them in /usr/bin. Not a big deal, but can be a nuisance to upgrade.

As I mentioned, I haven't used dispalgui, but the docs suggest that it will ask you where the Argyll executables are if it can't find them. This would be nice because it means you might be able to put the folder anywhere you please and simply tell dispalgui the location when it starts up. This is from: http://dispcalgui.hoech.net

Quote
Launch dispcalGUI. If it cannot determine the path to the Argyll CMS binaries, it will prompt you to select the location manually on first launch.
Title: Re: Argyll CMS
Post by: GWGill on September 15, 2014, 11:19:53 am
Geekiness is so damn irritating it makes you want to go back to BASIC.
Technical ineptness is so damn irritating, it makes you want to not bother releasing software in the first place...
Title: Re: Argyll CMS
Post by: GWGill on September 15, 2014, 11:29:42 am
You are right, that is confusing and I think any normal reading of it is contradictory.
Happy to improve the clarity of the documentation, but you'll have to point out what you think is contradictory - I'm not seeing it.

[ For someone not at all familiar with the command line environment, I'm sure it's all a bit bewildering - but they need to either get to grips with it, or not go down that path at all. ]



Title: Re: Argyll CMS
Post by: howardm on September 15, 2014, 12:12:18 pm
when you open a Terminal, the shell gets a certain set of directories that it search for commands by default.  You can modify that set (that's the edit the .profile directive (.cshrc for you csh fans)).  IMO, it's 'poor form' to add the Argyll commands (or any others) to /usr/bin as that 'pollutes' system space.  You're better off creating /usr/local/bin and adding that.  A lot of this stuff comes from knowing how to navigate and do basic system manipulation of and on the command line.  Some form of 'Unix Basics' , 'Unix for Dummies' book or on-line resource would be most helpful and open up the power that is under the GUI hood of a Mac cause sometimes, you just gotta get under the hood.
Title: Re: Argyll CMS
Post by: MarkM on September 15, 2014, 01:29:34 pm
[ For someone not at all familiar with the command line environment, I'm sure it's all a bit bewildering - but they need to either get to grips with it, or not go down that path at all. ]

Agreed — in fact I sometimes think making the install a little challenging is a good way to let people know what skills they'll need to use the software once it's installed.

Happy to improve the clarity of the documentation, but you'll have to point out what you think is contradictory - I'm not seeing it.

You've been at this a long time and have probably seen every tech support question possible — I have no experience dealing with users, so please take this with a grain of salt.

When I'm trying to install or compile software in an unfamiliar environment, I read directions like a linear recipe of steps to follow. If you try to read the current docs this way, you unpack the the file to a place for executables then a couple steps later you drag it to your home folder. Contradictory is an exaggeration, but it's not particularly clear unless you've installed things like this before, in which case the install is so easy you don't really need to read past the first sentence. If I were trying to explain this to someone with little prior knowledge of command line tools in OS X I would make it more linear such as:

Maybe that will confuse a different set of users, I don't know, but it would be pretty clear to me.

Title: Re: Argyll CMS
Post by: Lundberg02 on September 15, 2014, 04:31:25 pm
Quoting MarkM<As I mentioned, I haven't used dispalgui, but the docs suggest that it will ask you where the Argyll executables are if it can't find them. This would be nice because it means you might be able to put the folder anywhere you please and simply tell dispalgui the location when it starts up. This is from: http://dispcalgui.hoech.net

Quote
Launch dispcalGUI. If it cannot determine the path to the Argyll CMS binaries, it will prompt you to select the location manually on first launch.>

 Using my amazing reasoning powers, I just unpacked the Argyll tar to the Desktop and moved the resulting folder to Applications. Then I installed the dispcalgui.dmg which just gave me a window of apps and aliases, so I selected them all and moved them to a folder called, wait for it, dispcalgui, and moved that to Applications. Opening that folder in Applications I clicked on the dispcalgui icon and the app asked me where Argyll was, so I told it and it was happy.  I probably could have put the Argyll bin file in /usr/bin, but this works nicely without doing anything.
At least on a Mac, it's no motte difficult than any other app, just an additional two steps.
By the way, you can't unpack the Argyll tar in /usr/bin, the mac won't let you, an error message says so.
Title: Re: Argyll CMS
Post by: MarkM on September 15, 2014, 04:40:10 pm
Quoting MarkM<As I mentioned, I haven't used dispalgui, but the docs suggest that it will ask you where the Argyll executables are if it can't find them. This would be nice because it means you might be able to put the folder anywhere you please and simply tell dispalgui the location when it starts up. This is from: http://dispcalgui.hoech.net

Quote
Launch dispcalGUI. If it cannot determine the path to the Argyll CMS binaries, it will prompt you to select the location manually on first launch.>

 Using my amazing reasoning powers, I just unpacked the Argyll tar to the Desktop and moved the resulting folder to Applications. Then I installed the dispcalgui.dmg which just gave me a window of apps and aliases, so I selected them all and moved them to a folder called, wait for it, dispcalgui, and moved that to Applications. Opening that folder in Applications I clicked on the dispcalgui icon and the app asked me where Argyll was, so I told it and it was happy.  I probably could have put the Argyll bin file in /usr/bin, but this works nicely without doing anything.
At least on a Mac, it's no motte difficult than any other app, just an additional two steps.
By the way, you can't unpack the Argyll tar in /usr/bin, the mac won't let you, an error message says so.

Great!

/usr/bin/ has permissions set to prevent normal users (or malicious users) from messing things up. For future reference, you can unpack into /usr/bin you just need to use a command like sudo with your administrator password, which overrides the permissions on the folder. I would recommend against using sudo until you're comfortable with the command line, however. The permissions are there to protect you from yourself as much as they are to protect you from others and you can mess things up with a simple typo. Either way, it doesn't sound like you need to mess with any of it — glad you got it working. ArgllyCMS is a really great set of tools and worth the time invested to figure them out.
Title: Re: Argyll CMS
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on September 15, 2014, 06:04:10 pm
Maybe Windows is easier to work with than MacOS.  I've been running Argyll for some time now and found the install process very easy.  I put everything onto my HDD that is separate from the system SSD with Windows and other programs on it simply because Graeme is updating it fairly often and it's easier to manage this way.  I just have to change on <PATH> command and things are good to go.  Personally I find the all the documentation very straight forward and free from the obtuseness that comes with lots of other software.  It does take time to go through all the different command line options and figure out what you need in particular situations.  As I noted in my previous post, I simply created a serious of Notepad templates that can be pasted into the command line and then <ENTER> and things get cooking.  Biggest issue is mistyping commands! :D
Title: Re: Argyll CMS
Post by: Czornyj on September 15, 2014, 06:16:12 pm
Maybe Windows is easier to work with than MacOS.
You must be joking - switching these goddamn' drivers every time you switch from ArgyllCMS to other profiling software is a real PITA ;) ArgyllCMS is a pure fun to use on OSX - it adds some fairy-tale elements to reality, but once you learn the spells it's quite simple to use it :)
Title: Re: Argyll CMS
Post by: Lundberg02 on September 15, 2014, 06:24:09 pm
Where is the documentation, now that you mention it?  I wanted to install it because it looks on paper to be useful. I was pleased to discover that dispcalgui has a profile inspector and what looks like a gamut comparator, and it opened my display profile by default. I'm not happy with ColorSync Utilities.  For instance it tries to tell me that my display gamut is larger than AdobeRGB, even Dell wouldn't try to tell me that.
 I take that Mr Gill is the developer and is touchy about geekiness. I spent a thousand years of my life being a hardware/software integration engineer among other things, and I am quite familiar with software developers and their quirks. When I encountered a problem, I would explain it to a guy we called "No Op", because that was almost without exception, his fix.
Our typical problems were, factor of two, polarity, no default, input or output out of range, global/local variable confusion, overflows, machine language subroutines, and modes not locked against transients.  So I don't need attitude.  But I applaud the hard work that has gone into this app.
Title: Re: Argyll CMS
Post by: fdisilvestro on September 15, 2014, 07:46:08 pm
For instance it tries to tell me that my display gamut is larger than AdobeRGB, even Dell wouldn't try to tell me that.
 

I don't know about your monitor, but it is actually possible to have a display gamut larger than AdobeRGB
Title: Re: Argyll CMS
Post by: Lundberg02 on September 15, 2014, 10:41:37 pm
Well sure it is, but ColorSync tries to show me that my U2413 is about 110% of aRGB, and Dell only claims 98%.  I'll believe if dispcalgui says it too, maybe. I'll also check it Win XP with Profile Inspector.

I did find some documentation for dispcal, but it's more or less a FAQ page on the home site.
I guess Mr Gill doesn't really need to worry about a GUI, since dispcal has been created, but command line apps are so 90s.
Title: Re: Argyll CMS
Post by: fdisilvestro on September 15, 2014, 10:52:36 pm
Well sure it is, but ColorSync tries to show me that my U2413 is about 110% of aRGB, and Dell only claims 98%.  I'll believe if dispcalgui says it too, maybe. I'll also check it Win XP with Profile Inspector.


I'm not sure about the figure that is being reported. The comparative volume of the display gamut vs. Adobe RGB gamut could well be 110%, and it might cover 98% of Adobe RGB  (maybe some colors in Adobe RGB are out of the gamut of the monitor). Otherwise, 110% of Adobe RGB does not make much sense.

I guess Mr Gill doesn't really need to worry about a GUI, since dispcal has been created, but command line apps are so 90s.

Just remember that Dispcal guy covers only a subset of the functionality of Argyll CMS

Regards
Title: Re: Argyll CMS
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on September 16, 2014, 07:58:02 am
You must be joking - switching these goddamn' drivers every time you switch from ArgyllCMS to other profiling software is a real PITA ;)
Why would you need any other profiling software?  ;D  Changing the drivers is trivial in any event.
Title: Re: Argyll CMS
Post by: howardm on September 16, 2014, 11:41:05 am
Mr. Lundberg,

I'm astounded by the rudeness and easy dismissal of thousands of hours of software development work by Mr. Gill, including
custom device drivers just because XRite is a bunch of d*cks and decided to lock-out the CM Display.

You drive a car who's interface was fixed in the 1920's, same thing for many other 'devices'.

If you want to *donate* X000's of hours building the be-all,end-all GUI, go ahead esp since you have upteem experience
with software and hardware but apparently have never dealt w/ a  Unix system.   You can see already that just getting a
good dispcalGUI is *A LOT* of work.  But that isn't enough, you need it all pre-digested and 'click here' when you're delving
into some moderately esoteric color issues.  If you've been around real engineers, you know that they write tools to get the
job done.  GUI programming is hard (esp. multiplatform) and doesn't actually add much 'value'; I'd rather the tools be improved.

</rant>
Title: Re: Argyll CMS
Post by: Lundberg02 on September 16, 2014, 05:45:30 pm
I have lots of experience with Unix systems and so does everyone, but they have GUIs. They're called Windows and OS X.
 The only way any wonder app will have broad acceptance is with a solid GUI. If you don't realize that you will never sell one.
Title: Re: Argyll CMS
Post by: Lundberg02 on September 16, 2014, 06:46:58 pm
I'm not sure about the figure that is being reported. The comparative volume of the display gamut vs. Adobe RGB gamut could well be 110%, and it might cover 98% of Adobe RGB  (maybe some colors in Adobe RGB are out of the gamut of the monitor). Otherwise, 110% of Adobe RGB does not make much sense.

Just remember that Dispcal guy covers only a subset of the functionality of Argyll CMS

Regards

The profile inspector in dispcalgui, to my amazement, DOES show the factory profile for the Dell U2413 is larger than AdobeRGB 1998 on the red side and down to the blue vertex. Although I apparently don't have the right VRML viewer to rotate it around, the missing 2% is probably down in the blue region somewhere. Thank you for the insight that it is possible for a color space to be larger and smaller at the same time. Just never thought of it that way, probably a mental block from seeing so many 2D representations.
I have another viewer somewhere and I might even be able to do it with Dry Creek.
Title: Re: Argyll CMS
Post by: fdisilvestro on September 16, 2014, 07:51:30 pm
Thank you for the insight that it is possible for a color space to be larger and smaller at the same time.

Hi, sorry for being pedantic, but it is not a matter of being larger and smaller at the same time, the idea is that a larger space (3D volume) not necessarilly encompass a smaller space entirely. This is very common when you compare output/printer gamuts with working spaces such as Adobe RGB

The attached image shows two gamuts, where one is considerably larger (wireframe), but the smaller 3D gamut (solid) has a region in the yellows that is outside the gamut of the larger space

Title: Re: Argyll CMS
Post by: Hening Bettermann on September 17, 2014, 12:24:06 pm
> The only way any wonder app will have broad acceptance is with a solid GUI. If you don't realize that you will never sell one.

Graeme does not try to sell his app, he gives it away for free! It is 'geeks' who write the programs we use - what would we do without them? Blaming them for being geeky is both absurd and impudent.
Title: Re: Argyll CMS
Post by: Lundberg02 on September 17, 2014, 06:33:19 pm
Yes, Francisco, I'm aware of the possibility that one wider volume might not encompass all of the smaller. I just wasn't thinking of that when I thought about Dell's claim of 98% versus its actual volume being larger. You'd think their marketing people would rethink  their approach to bragging about gamut.

Hening: If he wants to be a reclusive genius writing software for his own pleasure, fine. It will never be used by many people who would and should use it, if it never has a decent GUI.
Title: Re: Argyll CMS
Post by: MarkM on September 17, 2014, 06:55:53 pm
Hening: If he wants to be a reclusive genius writing software for his own pleasure, fine. It will never be used by many people who would and should use it, if it never has a decent GUI.

I really don't understand where you're coming from. A lot of people use command line tools because they are more flexible than applications that tie you to the limitations of a GUI. It's not a poor-man's substitute; it's a different approach that solves different problems. Try piping the data from something like ColorThink to your favorite 3d package. ColorThink has a gorgeous interface, but what if you need to see the model with different lighting? Or want a cutaway? Or want to create a different projections. You're SOL because the interface limits you to the output the developer coded. With command line tools you can just pipe output to another process or you can integrate them into whatever workflow you like.  

For example, choose your favorite GUI tool that can control an i1 or similar and get it to make this: http://visual.ly/24-crayons

This took a few minutes and about 10 lines of python with Argyll piped to Nodebox.

Despite your background in engineering, you clearly have no knowledge of Unix history or philosophy, and until you have a better handle on it, your arguments don't carry much weight. You've just figured out (with a lot of hand-holding) how to install the damned thing and now you are making predictions about it's user base. It's really out of line.

You've been given free software and free support from people who are trying to help you. If you don't like the software, choose something with a GUI like the offerings from X-rite and be happy. Although I can't speak for Graeme, my suspicion is that he is more interested in supporting serious work than achieving a popular user base among the general public.  And for what it's worth, it's my impression that among power users Argyll is widely-used and admired.
Title: Re: Argyll CMS
Post by: GWGill on October 14, 2014, 01:50:44 am

An updated guide for installing on OS X is here (http://www.argyllcms.com/doc/Installing_OSX.html).

Any errors or omissions, please let me know.
Title: Re: Argyll CMS
Post by: GWGill on October 14, 2014, 01:53:10 am
The only way any wonder app will have broad acceptance is with a solid GUI.
I agree, and rest assured that any version of ArgyllCMS I create that has a GUI, will cost you money.
Title: Re: Argyll CMS
Post by: GWGill on October 14, 2014, 01:59:04 am
You must be joking - switching these goddamn' drivers every time you switch from ArgyllCMS to other profiling software is a real PITA ;)
It's swings and roundabouts - when nothing grabs the instrument permanently on OS X it works well. If something does (like a system driver or an X-Rite daemon), it's actually harder in OS X because there's no built in facility to swap drivers like there is on MSWin, instead you have to start mucking about as super user to fix it.
Title: Re: Argyll CMS
Post by: GWGill on October 14, 2014, 02:00:20 am
 So I don't need attitude.
Then don't be rude when you're looking for help.
Title: Re: Argyll CMS
Post by: startkapital on October 14, 2014, 08:33:42 pm
I love working with Argyll CMS that why I donated some money and will donate in the future since I even make profit out of Argyll using it to calibrate clients printers with 3rd party ink systems.

Title: Interesting discussion
Post by: keith_cooper on October 19, 2014, 05:10:42 pm
I'm finding this a very interesting discussion, both from the POV of a photographer/printer who has a strong interest in colour management, but also from the POV of someone who spent a significant part of their previous career doing research into usability and human factors (and before that hardware/software design).

The software is very distinctly what in the UK would be called a Marmite product (something you either love or hate ;-).
FYI   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marmite

I'm minded to think that a well designed modern user centred interface would result in a popular product that people would pay for, the current command line style being inherently self limiting with respect to broader user acceptability.
Title: Re: Interesting discussion
Post by: GWGill on October 19, 2014, 06:59:32 pm
I'm minded to think that a well designed modern user centred interface would result in a popular product that people would pay for, the current command line style being inherently self limiting with respect to broader user acceptability.
MarkM very nicely summarized the tradeoffs between a pure GUI and command line/tool UI, but don't think that the fact that ArgyllCMS has a command line interface implies in any way that I am advocating it as what "everyone should use" - it is that way due to history - my aim was to get to the core of various colour management tasks as efficiently as possible, and a command line based tool has the lowest development overhead. If I had an army of people working for me, then I could command some of them to write a GUI, but alas I only have my own labour to command. I have no disagreement at all that a GUI would broaden its appeal - but I seem to have mislaid my magic wand.
Title: Re: Argyll CMS
Post by: Lundberg02 on October 19, 2014, 10:12:51 pm
I agree, and rest assured that any version of ArgyllCMS I create that has a GUI, will cost you money.

I buy lots of apps, many of them work well, and I would buy yours. Beauty can be appreciated by the masses if they can access it.
Title: Re: Argyll CMS
Post by: deejjjaaaa on October 19, 2014, 11:26:00 pm
I buy lots of apps, many of them work well, and I would buy yours. Beauty can be appreciated by the masses if they can access it.
there are quite some GUI frontends for argyll...
Title: Re: Argyll CMS
Post by: keith_cooper on October 20, 2014, 05:24:07 am
there are quite some GUI frontends for argyll...
Indeed, that is why I used the phrase "well designed modern user centred interface" rather than GUI. It's about the whole user experience, from installation to patterns of usage.

I know from reviewing many commercial software products over the years, that getting the balance right with respect to functionality and usability for different user categories is not a trivial matter...

I do realise the seriously large amount of work to design, build and test such software, and no criticism at all was intended of the huge amount of work that has been freely given in the development of the core functionality.
Title: Re: Argyll CMS
Post by: Tim Lookingbill on October 20, 2014, 12:46:10 pm
Just curious whether creating a display profile using ArgyllCMS will deliver better or different looking previews editing under an Adobe driven color engine on a calibrated system compared to just relying on something like Colormunki Display profile.

This is the question that never gets asked in discussions of this sort.

And if you don't understand the question or don't see any differences, then I don't need the question answered nor do I need a better solution. OTOH, if there is better preview edit performance, then I'ld like to see hard evidence using screen grabs or taking a picture of an A/B display setup showing this improvement.

Just as a reminder, when I want to correct on the display color errors or undesirable image quality I see on a print, I have to make HUGE edits on the display to see a difference. And what I mean by huge amounts to about a Delta E of 5 and over in HSL.

Just want to see how fine to slice this hair.
Title: Re: Argyll CMS
Post by: GWGill on October 21, 2014, 07:45:15 pm
Just curious whether creating a display profile using ArgyllCMS will deliver better or different looking previews editing under an Adobe driven color engine on a calibrated system compared to just relying on something like Colormunki Display profile.
Some people have reported being more pleased with display profiles created using ArgyllCMS + DispcalGUI than the default Colormunki Display software, but it's hard to make generalizations - every type of color device has it's own behavior that the profiling software may or may not cope well with, and there is a tradeoff of time vs. quality as well. ArgyllCMS gives you more flexibility in this regard, but flexibility = complexity = confusion.
Title: Re: Argyll CMS
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on October 22, 2014, 08:08:38 am
FWIW, I've done some visual comparisons between NEC Spectraview with the dedicated puck they ship and ArgyllCMS.  I didn't see much if any difference so I've stuck with Spectraview as it's easier to setup and maintain.  I use ArgylCMS for all my paper profiling with an i1Pro.
Title: Re: Argyll CMS
Post by: Tim Lookingbill on October 22, 2014, 12:54:30 pm
FWIW, I've done some visual comparisons between NEC Spectraview with the dedicated puck they ship and ArgyllCMS.  I didn't see much if any difference so I've stuck with Spectraview as it's easier to setup and maintain.  I use ArgylCMS for all my paper profiling with an i1Pro.

Alan, when you checked for differences did you determine this editing high gamut scenes like sunsets. As an example did you notice hue differences as demonstrated in the hue twists in the sunset lit clouds image comparison below?

The reason I ask is I've noticed in the passing years a few competing Raw converters interpret these type of color temp influenced hues differently which suggested how different approaches to writing their algorithms can affect previews in unexpected ways that resemble closely what I'ld observed trying out different brands of high/low quality watercolor dye vs pigment based paints back when I was a photo-realist painter. When I saw how such color subtlety could be controlled on a computer display at this level I could see how adhering to strict and exacting color science definitions and constructs for color rendering was futile.
Title: Re: Argyll CMS
Post by: StephaneB on January 04, 2016, 12:47:35 pm
Just curious whether creating a display profile using ArgyllCMS will deliver better or different looking previews editing under an Adobe driven color engine on a calibrated system compared to just relying on something like Colormunki Display profile.

I have made comparisons with the stock software included with my i1 Display Pro and it is not pretty for X-Rite.

I only tested linearity and it was enough. A same file containing a simple gradient in PhotoShop showed linerity defects when displayed with the X-Rite-generated profile and it displayed perfectly when using the ArgyllCMS-generated profile. For display calibration and profiling, I find DispcalGUI very nice to use.

For printing, I used to use QTR for B&W and canned profiles for the very small number of colour pictures I print. I learned how to use ArgyllCMS from the command line to generate profiles for my R3000 and the few papers I use. It is an involved process, but far from insurmountable thanks to tutorials available at different places on the web and the documentation on the ArgyllCMS web site. The most difficult part was to find a way to print the targets without any colour management, thanks Adobe for removing that from PhotoShop !

Thanks to the quality of the generated profiles, I use them for colour and B&W printing, with excellent results. This great because I now have just one printing process for both types of pictures and I can finally use the toning tool in Lightroom.
Title: Re: Argyll CMS
Post by: AlterEgo on January 04, 2016, 01:45:41 pm
For display calibration and profiling, I find DispcalGUI very nice to use.
unfortunately it does not work with H/W LUTs, so if you have a little bit (or a lot) upscale monitor you have to use OEM software (which is not necessarily bad may be for the likes of Eizo or NEC - but for the tiers below it is almost always rebranded X-Rite).
Title: Re: Argyll CMS
Post by: Doug Gray on January 04, 2016, 02:23:41 pm
unfortunately it does not work with H/W LUTs, so if you have a little bit (or a lot) upscale monitor you have to use OEM software (which is not necessarily bad may be for the likes of Eizo or NEC - but for the tiers below it is almost always rebranded X-Rite).

The Eizo CN product calibrates the monitor's internal LUTs extremely well. The CG318 also has a built-in colorimeter that makes creating profiles easy peasy. I've checked color accuracy with Patchtool and I1 Pros and it is quite accurate.

The great thing about CN is that you can right click on the icon and instantly set your monitor for whatever colorspace you have previously created. I have a range of CCTs, and RGB gamuts that I switch based on what I'm working on. I love the flexibility.

I'm kind of nutty about color accuracy and tracking printer colors, profile accuracy for both printing and proofing (these use different ICC tables). 
Title: Re: Argyll CMS
Post by: Doug Gray on January 04, 2016, 02:29:32 pm
The most difficult part was to find a way to print the targets without any colour management, thanks Adobe for removing that from PhotoShop !

There is actually a very simple way to print charts for profiling in Photoshop. Assign any printer profile. In your color preferences set the defaults to Colorimetric and no BPC.  Then just print using Photoshop manages color and selecting the same printer profile with Colorimetric and no BPC. Ignore warning messages.

Works great. It bypasses everything and just sends the RGB values directly to the printer driver.

Etoa: You can use any RGB printer profile but not CYMK profiles. It doesn't have to be the printer you are using at the time.
Title: Re: Argyll CMS
Post by: StephaneB on January 05, 2016, 03:53:22 am
There is actually a very simple way to print charts for profiling in Photoshop. Assign any printer profile. In your color preferences set the defaults to Colorimetric and no BPC.  Then just print using Photoshop manages color and selecting the same printer profile with Colorimetric and no BPC. Ignore warning messages.

Works great. It bypasses everything and just sends the RGB values directly to the printer driver.

Etoa: You can use any RGB printer profile but not CYMK profiles. It doesn't have to be the printer you are using at the time.

Thanks! I'll try that next time.