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Author Topic: New Epson Pro-printer with highest DMax (P600)  (Read 18876 times)

mcbroomf

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New Epson Pro-printer with highest DMax (P600)
« on: September 06, 2014, 09:12:10 am »

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/4835137152/epson-launches-a3-sc-p600-printer-with-industrys-highest-black-density
http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/jsp/Landing/precisioncore-advanced-printing-technology.do
I haven't gone all the way through the whitepaper yet but it looks like the new head has 600 nozzles/inch vs 720 and 2 rows of 400 vs 2 rows of 360 on the print chip.

"A source at Epson told DP Review that we should expect the Stylus Pro name to be gradually phased out as new products are launched, but was keen to stress that existing Stylus Pro models are not about to be replaced"

I wonder when we'll see large format versions...

« Last Edit: November 02, 2014, 12:40:22 pm by mcbroomf »
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Paul2660

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Re: New Epson Pro-printer with highest DMax
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2014, 09:54:29 am »

With current tech from Epson, I can get plenty of black.  I would hope they maybe addressed:

1.  Bronzing on glossy or satin with PK
2.  Glossy differential on all satin and glossy media
3.  PK and MK on line all the time, no more switching

That would be worth a consideration for upgrading for me. 

Paul
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Paul Caldwell
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MHMG

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Re: New Epson Pro-printer with highest DMax
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2014, 10:01:40 am »

From this article about the SC-P600 printer:

"The 2.8DMax and a claimed wider colour gamut are produced via Epson’s new nine-colour UltraChrome HD inkset, which includes the new Vivid Magenta ink and, in this machine, 25.9ml cartridges"

Rebadging a K3VM nine color ink set with the "HD" label because the printer squeezes out a little more gamut via better variable dot placement and a PK ink with slightly higher perceptible dmax seems to confuse matters with the current UltraChrome HD ink set that already extends color gamut with additional orange and green inks. Also, no mention of a new yellow pigment with improved light fade resistance.

For the high end photographic market, a slightly higher perceivable  dmax is small consolation over time as skin tones shift more purplish-blue due to more rapid loss of yellow colorant.  Hence, I don't see a compelling reason to upgrade unless the initial print quality truly takes a noticeable jump forward. That objective seems unlikely given the already high initial image quality from the current Epson line of photo printers.

Edit: I was mistaken above in confusing the Epson Ultrachrome HDR pigmented set (as used in the x900 series printers) with this new name of "UltraChrome HD". Epson used the "HD" terminology first when describing its Claria dye-based ink set. DPReview described the new printer as a pigment printer. Yet After rereading the Epson press release, I didn't see any mention of either pigment or dye. So, it's really hard to say what this "new UltraChrome HD with vivid magenta " ink set really is. Could it possibly be a total dye set comparable to Canon's dye set used in the the prosumer Pro-100 printer?  That would explain the high dmax on photo papers. And it would also mean Epson may now have introduced dye-based LLK and LK as well, so indeed a very new ink set for Epson. If so, keeping the Ultrachrome label for a dye based set is certainly confusing, but I seem to recall Epson has already done that with some of its dye-based mini lab printers. I guess we may have to wait for trade show reports from the floor at PhotoKina 2014 to sort it all out ::)

mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
« Last Edit: September 06, 2014, 10:19:16 pm by MHMG »
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michael

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Re: New Epson Pro-printer with highest DMax
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2014, 10:42:18 am »

Anyone notice how small the ink carts are?

Don't throw away your 3880 yet.

Michael
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petermfiore

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Re: New Epson Pro-printer with highest DMax
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2014, 10:54:46 am »

Anyone notice how small the ink carts are?

Don't throw away your 3880 yet.

Michael
My exact thought!!!

Peter

Jim Kasson

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Re: New Epson Pro-printer with highest DMax
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2014, 11:40:11 am »

For the high end photographic market, a slightly higher perceivable  dmax is small consolation over time as skin tones shift more purplish-blue due to more rapid loss of yellow colorant.  Hence, I don't see a compelling reason to upgrade unless the initial print quality truly takes a noticeable jump forward. That objective seems unlikely given the already high initial image quality from the current Epson line of photo printers.

Mark, one thing my 4900 suffers from is clogged nozzles if the printer isn't used at least every other day. I understand that this is a problem with all the x900 printers. My 3880 hardly clogged at all, and my 9800 usually produces perfect nozzle check patterns even if I haven't used it in a month; it pesters me to do a deep cleaning, but I ignore it.

If the new printers are as resistant to nozzle clogs as the 3880 and the x800 printers, I'll be a customer.

Jim

jferrari

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Re: New Epson Pro-printer with highest DMax
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2014, 12:09:29 pm »

Mark, one thing my 4900 suffers from is clogged nozzles if the printer isn't used at least every other day. I understand that this is a problem with all the x900 printers.

Wow! I must have missed the memo that put you in charge of speaking for the ten's of thousands of x900 owners! I hope this isn't the second coming, I'm not ready yet!

Just for the record, I don't have clogs, dots, streaks or head strikes because I keep my print head clean, shake my carts once a month, and keep my wiper/capping station clean. It's really that simple. My PK cart gets used maybe twice a year and is nearly 4 years old. Never a clog. My relative humidity varies between 12 to 70 percent with seasonal changes - I don't waste money on humidifiers.

And just how do you know you have clogged nozzles? It's far more likely that you have clogged filters in the damper (yes, each damper has two filter screens) which get clogged with pigment which is by design as Epson recommends you change the dampers every year.    - Jim
« Last Edit: September 06, 2014, 12:13:22 pm by jferrari »
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Mark D Segal

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Re: New Epson Pro-printer with highest DMax
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2014, 12:24:10 pm »

Michael: Yes of course I sure did notice the much reduced cartridge size and that usually implies much higher ink cost per ml. The key thing of course will be to see "by how much", insofar as for those of using higher-end papers (such as IGFS, Hahn, etc) the cost of the paper considerably exceeds the cost of the ink per sheet. To give you a feel for it, using IGFS 13*19 boxes of 50 sheets, including taxes and in Canadian dollars, if I fill one of those sheets with 11*17 inches of image content (one inch border on each side), while the paper costs me $2.55, the ink costs $1.09. The ink cost is the cost of the 200ml cartridge and the number of ml/sq.ft. expended on an average density print of those dimensions. The data for both these variables remains to be seen for the new printer model, however the "landed cost" of the ink per printed photo would need to more than double before it overtakes the paper. Not insignificant, and this will vary by user and according to a number of projections used to make such calculations, but I figure the amortization of the printer itself is worth about $1.11 for each Super A3.

Mark M-G: In a nutshell, could you give us an idea of roughly how long prints made from the Ultrachrome-HDR inkset on high quality Baryta-based papers can be kept in dark storage before yellow fading would begin to affect skin tones?

Jim: I have to say I am with you on that. I need to ensure at least one print of a real photograph or page of solid patches flows through my 4900 at the longest every three days, otherwise the nozzle check pattern will show gaps in one or more channels. If I use the printer every day or every other day the incidence of these "clogs" is far, far reduced, not eliminated, but easily cleaned out. The printer sits in a humidity range of 25% to 50%, depending. We won't know the reliability of the new set of models until they have been on the market and tested for quite a while by a fairly wide range of users under different conditions. I agree with Michael not to toss out the 3880 - but mainly for this reason. I would not buy one until I have adequate evidence that reliability is no worse than my current 4900.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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digitaldog

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Re: New Epson Pro-printer with highest DMax
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2014, 12:26:31 pm »

Mark, one thing my 4900 suffers from is clogged nozzles if the printer isn't used at least every other day.
I had exactly the same issues. You just have to use it nearly every day or it will clog. My 3880 literally never clogs. I made an Applescript to print a test on the 4900 every day and the clogging disappeared. But between having to keep the beast running every day, it's pretty awful paper handling for 8x11 sheet and the noise, and because the 3880 was such a joy, I ended up donating the 4900 and don't miss it at all. As Jim says, if you use your 4900 every day or run some kind of utility, the clogging issue pretty much disappears. Hopefully the next generation from Epson will fix this issue as it's a major PITA for anyone who doesn't use the product daily.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: New Epson Pro-printer with highest DMax
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2014, 12:30:17 pm »

.................. filters in the damper (yes, each damper has two filter screens) which get clogged with pigment which is by design as Epson recommends you change the dampers every year.    - Jim

Could you please point me to where Epson recommends this? I ask, because there is nothing in the manual for the 4900 that recommends changing dampers every year, at least for that model, and I understand from several very well-placed sources the technology on this model is essentially the same as for the 7900/9900.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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MHMG

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Re: New Epson Pro-printer with highest DMax
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2014, 12:35:38 pm »

Mark, one thing my 4900 suffers from is clogged nozzles if the printer isn't used at least every other day. I understand that this is a problem with all the x900 printers. My 3880 hardly clogged at all, and my 9800 usually produces perfect nozzle check patterns even if I haven't used it in a month; it pesters me to do a deep cleaning, but I ignore it.

If the new printers are as resistant to nozzle clogs as the 3880 and the x800 printers, I'll be a customer.

Jim

Well, it should go without saying that equipment failures or chronic reliability problems will force the enduser to another printer unit sooner rather than later, even if there's no "latest and greatest" one to switch to :-\

cheers,
Mark
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Paul Roark

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Re: New Epson Pro-printer with highest DMax
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2014, 12:38:57 pm »

Near the top of my wish list is a 1.5 pl drop size in a 7xxx 24 inch wide format printer.  The new head seems to be mostly about increased print speed, but it is also capable of 1.5 pl drop size.  Maybe there is hope.

Paul
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Paul2660

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Re: New Epson Pro-printer with highest DMax
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2014, 12:45:30 pm »

Could you please point me to where Epson recommends this? I ask, because there is nothing in the manual for the 4900 that recommends changing dampers every year, at least for that model, and I understand from several very well-placed sources the technology on this model is essentially the same as for the 7900/9900.

Yes, I would be interested in knowing that also, I can't find any mention in the 9900/7900 manual, in fact there is no mention of the dampers.  I have had at least 7 service calls on my 9900 and not once did Epson mention or have me check a damper, actually I don't think there is a way to do this without tearing the printer apart anyway.  

I only ask, because, since I have owned my 9900 (3.5 years now), I have had the left dampers changed out 2x and the right side 1x so you have a great point.  I have long felt that a lot of the problems with this generation of printer is the dampers/pressure or a some combination of problems.  Pressurized carts go back to the 7800 I believe maybe even the 7600 or older so they are not new.  But the dampers in the 9900 are pretty touchy.  

I also wonder if Epson considers a damper change PM?  while under 1 year warranty or extend warranty.  

All of my damper changes occurred under a warranty period.

Paul
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mcbroomf

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Re: New Epson Pro-printer with highest DMax
« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2014, 01:04:26 pm »

Anyone notice how small the ink carts are?

Don't throw away your 3880 yet.

Michael
Well given that this is a 13" printer and the 3880 is a 17" DEFINITELY don't throw out your 3880  ;D

This appears to replace the 2880 so far as I can tell (paper size), and I found suggestion that it's ink cartridges are only ~12ml.
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MHMG

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Re: New Epson Pro-printer with highest DMax
« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2014, 01:22:04 pm »


Mark M-G: In a nutshell, could you give us an idea of roughly how long prints made from the Ultrachrome-HDR inkset on high quality Baryta-based papers can be kept in dark storage before yellow fading would begin to affect skin tones?


If dark storage is the litmus test for print longevity, then any of the dye or pigment aqueous-based inkjet inks can easily turn in 100+ year performance, even the cheapest third party dye sets. Inkjet inks don't really suffer from thermal fading issues like the colour-coupler type dye molecules produced in the processing of traditional chromogenic color photographs. That leaves the media to bear the brunt of dark storage aging such as thermal yellowing, discoloration from airborne contaminants, foxing, embrittlement, cracking, flaking, mould and mildew, insect damage, mishandling, etc. Thus, as far as baryta based papers or any other inkjet media for that matter, one needs to test the specific paper to know where the weak links in the system are and under what circumstances. Even the cheapest litho inks on acid-choked lignin-filled paper will easily "last" over a century if the right environmental storage and display conditions are met and if the collector will accept some "patina of age" as inevitable aging occurs.  

I wasn't really attempting to steer this conversation abruptly toward print permanence. It's but one of many variables that go into the decision making process when buying a new printer. I was only pointing out that the new printer offering from Epson does not appear to have addressed one of my personal printmaking concerns which is the poorer light fade resistance of Epson OEM pigmented ink sets compared to Canon and HP.  Epson's competitive weakness with respect to light fastness lies essentially in just one colorant...the yellow!. Seems to me like low lying fruit for Epson to quietly reformulate the yellow colorant, or to provide an alternate yellow for those of us (admittedly a minority in a minority) who truly care about print permanence.

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
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Mark D Segal

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Re: New Epson Pro-printer with highest DMax
« Reply #15 on: September 06, 2014, 01:53:37 pm »

Hi Mark,

I happen to think longevity is a serious consideration when selecting a printer/printing system, so I agree - talking about longevity is appropriate in this thread - it is one important consideration amongst a number of others when deciding to "upgrade", including print quality, cost and system reliability. The reason I raised dark storage is that a great many people probably (and me for sure) keep their prints in proper boxes or albums where they are shut away from light unless being viewed. I'd need a castle of walls to display it all, and then who would be interested..........so I'm relieved that dark storage is not much of a challenge for the yellows. That means my grand-children will be able to view correctly what their grandfather made for many years into their futures........if they care. !!!
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Rick Popham

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Re: New Epson Pro-printer with highest DMax
« Reply #16 on: September 06, 2014, 07:51:04 pm »

Anyone notice how small the ink carts are?

Don't throw away your 3880 yet.

Michael

This looks to be a replacement for the R3000, which is a 13" printer with the same size carts.  I sure won't throw away my 3880, but it will interesting to see if its replacement will prove to be as great a printer.
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jferrari

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Re: New Epson Pro-printer with highest DMax
« Reply #17 on: September 06, 2014, 09:31:12 pm »

Epson recommends you change the dampers every year.

This is one of those bits of imformation that I stored and now cannot find the original source. It might've been on Eric's site or one of the printer manuals, just can't put my finger on it right now. I also remember reading it here: (scroll down to the second entry by "ssimoncini" third paragraph)

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?96675-Epson-4900-Printer-Extreme-Clogging-Problem/page4

The point to all this is that there are other things to consider before just condemning your printer (and all others) assuming a clogged head. Here is a quote from the InkjetMall: "Traditionally, print heads age gracefully. When there is a plug it nearly always some type of matter in the filters of the ink dampers."

Just like the oil filter on your car protects your expensive engine, the ten dollar damper filter protects the expensive head. Changing an oil filter on a car is a messy job and so is replacing a damper.    - Jim
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mcbroomf

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Re: New Epson Pro-printer with highest DMax (P600)
« Reply #18 on: November 02, 2014, 12:40:04 pm »

Michael posted videos today from PP that includes a long interview (just audio though) with Epson about the P600
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/5_short_interviews_from_photoplus.shtml

Some interesting comments about yellow longevity and the new matt black, but no plans to move this to wider than 13" at present.
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MHMG

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Re: New Epson Pro-printer with highest DMax (P600)
« Reply #19 on: November 02, 2014, 02:35:24 pm »

Michael posted videos today from PP that includes a long interview (just audio though) with Epson about the P600
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/5_short_interviews_from_photoplus.shtml

Some interesting comments about yellow longevity and the new matt black, but no plans to move this to wider than 13" at present.


Thanks for the link to MR's interview with the Epson tech rep about the P600. I was also at the Photo Plus East show this past Friday, and I also asked a knowledgeable Epson tech guy on the trade show floor about the P600.  Maybe I spoke to the same guy as MR :).  I specifically questioned him on whether the yellow colorant was the same one as used in the current K3VM and HDR ink sets.  I was not told the P600 ink set was "ALL NEW", but he did venture to say that the black and the yellow have been reformulated, the PK for better dMax and the yellow for better light fastness. So, although I didn't hear "ALL NEW" inks and the somewhat lame press release only seems to dwell on the better dMax of the system, I think it's very positive news that Epson appears to have quietly reformulated at least the yellow colorant for better light fade resistance.

I will start some light fade testing on the P600 ink set with various media as soon as I can, but I'm not on any of those "industry influencer" lists that companies use to give advanced access to the new stuff.  I will have to wait until the P600 is available for purchase in stores.  I do get a laugh when watching the Epson guys trying to maintain a straight face when saying there are "no plans" to phase this "ALL NEW" ink set into larger format printers at this time :)


cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
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