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Author Topic: The Canon Vs NikonSony and the future sensor tecnology.  (Read 41913 times)

pedro39photo

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The Canon Vs NikonSony and the future sensor tecnology.
« on: September 06, 2014, 07:12:52 am »

I never look to deep in tech details for any camera or models, as a photographer i just like to see the cameras as my working tools, they donīt make me a better photographer, but somethings they help to produce a better final product or a easy way to produced it.

For the last 8 years my 35mm working horses are Canon gear, and they still amaze me with the quality of her products and the CPS support. ( the plastics , rubbers and the materials that receive the more professional wear over the time are for are the best in the photo industry, the rubbers on my 24-70 and 70-200 with more than 500.000 clicks are like new !!! that still amaze me !)

But, the sensors...in the film days we can chose the gear brand and the velvia, the provia etc...now we still have a great 1Ds mark I or II  series old bodys but outdated because of the sensors...or maybe not... :)

I pass the early D800-E madness resolution, DMF wars etc, but in the last weeks, 2 or 3 pics i saw in the net from the d810 made me to start look a little deep about ther sensor technology, as a professional the bodys and lens are important but the file its a great part of the equation !

And after some reviews, deep tech details, and starting to play with some Nef files from sony 36mp exmor sensor i was in a little shock to not see earlier the big jump in sensor technology that this was, an old tabu that i have was drop dead !!! more MP its bad in small sensors !!

Of course a great sensor its not everything, and not a excuse to make any brand better than other but sometimes feels great to see some " game changers" in the industry and technology.

The 5D mark II was game changer in the video industry and 24Mp sensor, a and i think the sony exmor its a game changer in the sensor technology that proof that there is no tabus for what technology can achieve.

Its as been a great 2 decades to be a photographer and see such transforming in this tool and visual art !!!

I love to see some opinions about the future that this exmor or future canon sensors can bring to another brands, or next cmos DMF with 100mp.

Here are some tecnical detais:

http://www.chipworks.com/en/technical-competitive-analysis/resources/blog/full-frame-dslr-cameras-canon-stays-the-course/

http://www.chipworks.com/en/technical-competitive-analysis/resources/blog/full-frame-dslr-cameras-part-1-nikon-vs-sony/

http://www.sony.net/Products/SC-HP/cx_news/vol47/pdf/featuring47.pdf

My best regards
Pedro
  
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luxborealis

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Re: The Canon Vs NikonSony and the future sensor tecnology.
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2014, 08:08:46 am »

Some good observations and comments, Pedro. I know exactly what you are going through; two years ago after some soul-searching and similar research, I made the leap from Olympus to Nikon. I saw the writing on the wall and lept and have never regretted.

You are correct in observing that it's not all about megapixels. In my leap to Nikon (D800E), I gained mp, as Olympus has topped out at 16 and I might be at 24mp given that I am not using the top of the line 24/1.4G, for example. However the bigger leap by far has been in dynamic range. At a tested DR of 14.4, I can shoot into the sun on a clear summer morning and capture detail right the way through with careful LR-only processing (no HDR, no PS - see Bruce Peninsula post). This is astounding and, for me as a landscape shooter, a game changer like no other. And now, the D810 adds yet another ―-stop of DR.

Whether or not Canon will join Nikon and Sony in this quest is the $64,000 question.

As you said, it certainly has been a great 2 decades for photography! Although, in many respects, we seem to have reached a bit of a plateau in still photography, I am certainly looking forward to see what the next 20 years brings us.
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Paul2660

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Re: The Canon Vs NikonSony and the future sensor tecnology.
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2014, 08:42:30 am »


You are correct in observing that it's not all about megapixels. In my leap to Nikon (D800E), I gained mp, as Olympus has topped out at 16 and I might be at 24mp given that I am not using the top of the line 24/1.4G, for example. However the bigger leap by far has been in dynamic range. At a tested DR of 14.4, I can shoot into the sun on a clear summer morning and capture detail right the way through with careful LR-only processing (no HDR, no PS - see Bruce Peninsula post). This is astounding and, for me as a landscape shooter, a game changer like no other. And now, the D810 adds yet another ―-stop of D


This is an excellent summary of reasons for my move from Canon in mid 2012 to Nikon.  I will note also, for me is was not about 36MP vs 20MP, it was the ability to get one clean frame with out excessive red green banding and shadow noise at base to mid iso range. 

Deep rumors are that Canon has patents on a multilayer chip similar to Foveon design, and with that I wish them well.  It should be an interesting result.

Paul
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Paul Caldwell
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pedro39photo

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Re: The Canon Vs NikonSony and the future sensor tecnology.
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2014, 09:02:21 am »

This was the image comparation that blow my convictions, i was in shock, not for the resolution, that its normal we see in the future canon sensors but the real shock was the amazing clean information in the file after 5 stops under exposing.


Left: Nikon D800, ISO 100, 5 stops underexposed, RAW (NEF) image, 100% crop
Right: Canon EOS 5D MkIII image, 5 stops underexposed, RAW image, 100% crop


Amazing times ! this its the Bar for any future sensors to achieve or surpass  
« Last Edit: September 06, 2014, 11:33:36 am by pedro39photo »
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Paul2660

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Re: The Canon Vs NikonSony and the future sensor tecnology.
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2014, 09:57:14 am »

To me the next world rocker, if it ever happens is a Foveon chip Full frame with workable software solutions from LR and C1.   Canon still has the multilayer patents out there, if they brought this out in 20MP even it could be very interesting.  However no one has figured out higher iso on the Foveon chips yet, so who knows. 

Paul
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Paul Caldwell
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pedro39photo

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Re: The Canon Vs NikonSony and the future sensor tecnology.
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2014, 11:53:41 am »

The Foveon chip with its "in house" Sigma brand its a little sad and exciting to see at the same time.
For me the Foveon its like to see a beautiful wild tiger in a cage, amazing, exciting but will never be free to give and show us its true potentials from Pro brands like canon or nikon and Raw software.
Sigma make some great optic lens, but i thinks it just can not deliver high super demanding professional heavy duty slrs and lens materials.
I give a good top of the line sigma lens to wife, and just 1.5 years of use little amateur use, those matte finish paint just star to peel off
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: The Canon Vs NikonSony and the future sensor tecnology.
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2014, 12:19:34 pm »

To me the next world rocker, if it ever happens is a Foveon chip Full frame...

That is only possible with truly telecentric optics, because otherwise corner rays would travel longer through silicon and that creates a shift in color towards the corners. Calibration of that behavior seems very problematic to me, with potentially even less room for higher ISOs, and thus a software solution would be very unlikely.

Quote
... with workable software solutions from LR and C1.   Canon still has the multilayer patents out there, if they brought this out in 20MP even it could be very interesting.  However no one has figured out higher iso on the Foveon chips yet, so who knows.

It also seems unlikely that LR or C1 would be able to justify the R&D cost involved in such non-standard processing for a relatively limited group of potential users.

Cheers,
Bart
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pedro39photo

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Re: The Canon Vs NikonSony and the future sensor tecnology.
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2014, 12:31:06 pm »

It also seems unlikely that LR or C1 would be able to justify the R&D cost involved in such non-standard processing for a relatively limited group of potential users.

Cheers,
Bart

Yes Bart that its the key point, the Foveon remember me the Betacam and the HD-DVD.
Not always the better quality and technology prevails and triumph...its sad but its real. 
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NancyP

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Re: The Canon Vs NikonSony and the future sensor tecnology.
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2014, 02:29:56 pm »

Foveon sensors are fascinating but currently flawed - see the reviews of the Sigma Quattro and before that, the reviews of the Sigma Merrill cameras on this site. I enjoy my Merrills, particularly for lightweight hiking landscape photography kit, but they are very much specialized tools for landscape, not great all-around action-handling cameras.

I am a Canon shooter, and I think that Canon makes very good all-around cameras that are a pleasure to use. I am anxiously awaiting some sign of Canon sensor / sensor read-out dynamic resolution improvement, because I find that the cameras are ergonomic, many of the lenses are wonderful, and that the system as a whole works well for me. I don't want to change systems, and there's no financial incentive to do so (I am an amateur). Nikon lenses can be used on Canon camera bodies, but Canon lenses can't be used on Nikon camera bodies (I am a manual-focus aficionado, and shoot with some inherited pre-AI/AI/AIS Nikkors along with my trusty interchangeable extra-fine focusing screen). I have a big investment in EF mount lenses and therefore have more interest in a supplemental Sony mirrorless than in a Nikon dSLR.
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Paul2660

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Re: The Canon Vs NikonSony and the future sensor tecnology.
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2014, 04:14:00 pm »

Foveon sensors are fascinating but currently flawed - see the reviews of the Sigma Quattro and before that, the reviews of the Sigma Merrill cameras on this site. I enjoy my Merrills, particularly for lightweight hiking landscape photography kit, but they are very much specialized tools for landscape, not great all-around action-handling cameras.

I am a Canon shooter, and I think that Canon makes very good all-around cameras that are a pleasure to use. I am anxiously awaiting some sign of Canon sensor / sensor read-out dynamic resolution improvement, because I find that the cameras are ergonomic, many of the lenses are wonderful, and that the system as a whole works well for me. I don't want to change systems, and there's no financial incentive to do so (I am an amateur). Nikon lenses can be used on Canon camera bodies, but Canon lenses can't be used on Nikon camera bodies (I am a manual-focus aficionado, and shoot with some inherited pre-AI/AI/AIS Nikkors along with my trusty interchangeable extra-fine focusing screen). I have a big investment in EF mount lenses and therefore have more interest in a supplemental Sony mirrorless than in a Nikon dSLR.

All good points and if Canon makes no new full frame positional or actual announcements at Photokina, the A7 or A7r are a great fit for a Canon  shooter looking to expand DR.  I made the switch and sold all the EF glass I had, 14 years worth, but don't look back very often. 

Having used the A7r with the metabones and Acra DSLR2, it's an amazing solution, with excellent possibilities.  If an adapter ever come out for use with the Nikon glass with AF, I would be in the market.  I actually now prefer EVF unless it's fast moving subject matter (birds) where the EVF makes the viewing a bit harder for me and I still like optical. 

But for carry in the field, the A7r can't be beat.  Light weight, compact etc.  And now Zeiss is coming out with 2 new E mount lenses as I recall. 

The D810/and 14-24 with grip on the D810 goes get a bit heavy for me on a long day. 

Paul
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Paul Caldwell
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John Koerner

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Re: The Canon Vs NikonSony and the future sensor tecnology.
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2014, 01:59:05 pm »

The Canon 7D Mark II is about to come out.

If it has the same old basic sensor, I am switching to Nikon.

But if there is a new, dynamic, significant change in their sensor technology, I am going to stay with Canon.

Unfortunately, I prefer Canon's Macro specialty lenses, and super-telephoto offerings better than Nikon, pretty much across the board, and the one wide-angle zoom Nikkor lens I covet (14-24), that is an asterisk to that statement, can be put on a Canon.

But if Canon expects me to wait another several years for them to "catch up," sensor-wise, they are wrong. I am not waiting much longer.

So the upgrade to the 7D will be the deciding factor for me.

Jack
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David Anderson

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Re: The Canon Vs NikonSony and the future sensor tecnology.
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2014, 05:06:31 pm »



But if Canon expects me to wait another several years for them to "catch up," sensor-wise, they are wrong. I am not waiting much longer.


Canon will have to do something soon or I suspect their loyal customers will simply die of boredom.  ;)

I made the decision to switch to Nikon because there was no true successor to the 1DsIII and the D800e was just to tempting.



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BernardLanguillier

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Re: The Canon Vs NikonSony and the future sensor tecnology.
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2014, 05:25:32 pm »

Unfortunately, I prefer Canon's Macro specialty lenses, and super-telephoto offerings better than Nikon, pretty much across the board, and the one wide-angle zoom Nikkor lens I covet (14-24), that is an asterisk to that statement, can be put on a Canon.

I would try the new Nikon 400mm f2.8 E FL / 800mm f5.6 E FL if I were you.

Expensive but even better optically than the previous version that was already the best lens available in Nikon mount IMHO (and arguably the best overall already). The previous one was too heavy and poorly balanced, the new fixes all that.

Cheers,
Bernard

Chris_Brown

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Re: The Canon Vs NikonSony and the future sensor tecnology.
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2014, 06:02:03 pm »

Good articles. Thanks for the post.

Canon may consider dual-pixel technology as one of their silver bullets, IMO. Mirror-box auto-focus will be phased out at Canon implements dual-pixel tech into new cameras. Lenses may receive upgrades too, that provide smoother focusing while the mirror is slapping at 10 frames per second.

Most guys here don't need face-tracking autofocus, but in video and sports, it's a godsend.
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BJL

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Re: The Canon Vs NikonSony and the future sensor tecnology.
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2014, 07:21:12 pm »

Canon may consider dual-pixel technology as one of their silver bullets, IMO. Mirror-box auto-focus will be phased out at Canon implements dual-pixel tech into new cameras. Lenses may receive upgrades too, that provide smoother focusing while the mirror is slapping at 10 frames per second.

Most guys here don't need face-tracking autofocus, but in video and sports, it's a godsend.
Yes, innovations like Canon's dual-pixel AF may be enough to keep Canon quite competitive for video performance in still cameras and AF in non-DSLRs (both non-SLR system cameras and fixed lens compacts), and its sensors do seem good enough for all but a DR-obsessed niche of the market, judging by its continuing strong market share figures.
 
So I am sure that Canon has time to come up with something to improve DR, such as column-parallel ADC, if and when the commercial need is there.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2014, 07:43:37 pm by BJL »
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pedro39photo

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Re: The Canon Vs NikonSony and the future sensor tecnology.
« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2014, 07:25:59 pm »

Maybe in the past years both companies went to different efforts.
After the boom of the 5d mark II in the video and movie industries, that was a game changer , canon put they efforts in the C lines models, and not so much in new sensor technology. Us, canon photographer lose the "edge" in the digital files to nikon that donīt really do any R&D efforts, just need to buy the sensor to sony (kudos to sony, and thanks as a photographer)
Of course nikon saw a market opportunity and in the last 2 or 3 years put much more DSLR models in the market than canon, but canon donīt saw any "pressure" because they now have a new big sale segment in the video C models and the 5D mark III widely used and bought in double for photographers and cinematographers.

That its just my theory, but like me many canon photographers feel the "need" for a file like Exmor 36MP sensor, and with the time passing we just start to move to the dark side...

What its sad, its to see so much photographers that like very much the canon gear, body, lens, CPS, chang brand just because of the huge improvement of the Exmor files and resolution

Pedro
« Last Edit: September 07, 2014, 07:32:04 pm by pedro39photo »
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Theodoros

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Re: The Canon Vs NikonSony and the future sensor tecnology.
« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2014, 07:35:03 pm »

I would try the new Nikon 400mm f2.8 E FL / 800mm f5.6 E FL if I were you.

Expensive but even better optically than the previous version that was already the best lens available in Nikon mount IMHO (and arguably the best overall already). The previous one was too heavy and poorly balanced, the new fixes all that.

Cheers,
Bernard

Used to own the (identical optics with the just discontinued version) 400mm f2.8D... A bit pricey, but in reality one bought a 560mm f4 and an 800mm f5.6 along with it as long as he added the TCs... The bagger was perfectly usable at full aperture even with the TC-20Eiii and the Kenko 1.4x DGX stacked with it for a 1120mm f8 ! or 1700mm f8 on a D7K ...it would even AF in fairly good daylight with both the TCs stacked on it and the D7K... Amazing lens! ...the worst hood ever on a lens though!  :-[  The later versions where optically identical and the Dii version was 8% lighter, but they also replaced the sturdy leg of my version for a much worst one! Latter they also added VR which of course was a totally useless addition!  :-\
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Chris_Brown

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Re: The Canon Vs NikonSony and the future sensor tecnology.
« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2014, 08:50:02 pm »

. . . but like me many canon photographers feel the "need" for a file like Exmor 36MP sensor, and with the time passing we just start to move to the dark side...

What its sad, its to see so much photographers that like very much the canon gear, body, lens, CPS, chang brand just because of the huge improvement of the Exmor files and resolution

I evaluated the Nikon D800 for my biz, specifically because of the DR and file size, but didn't enjoy the tethered workflow. Combined with having to switch out all my lenses, I passed.
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dwswager

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Re: The Canon Vs NikonSony and the future sensor tecnology.
« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2014, 09:47:58 pm »

I've been a Nikon shooter since Canon obsoleted my FD mount equipment with the EOS mount eons ago.  I was actually concerned that with their bigger size Canon might just outpace Nikon and in pure number of lenses they have.  However, in really thinking it over, it is better that Nikon can source key components that are not really core to "photography", but technology used in Photography.

And while MP isn't everything, it depends what you are using the MP for.  Remember that the 36MP of the D800 isn't even double the resolution of the 12MP D300 which would be 48MP.  Resolution is a square function.

If I had to list my priorities it would be low noise at all ISO, smooth tonal gradiations (MF film advantage over 35mm), true color rendition (lessen post processing demands), exposure depth.
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Chris_Brown

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Re: The Canon Vs NikonSony and the future sensor tecnology.
« Reply #19 on: September 07, 2014, 10:11:27 pm »

I've been a Nikon shooter since Canon obsoleted my FD mount equipment with the EOS mount eons ago.

I, too, popped a gasket when this happened. Went with Mamiya RZ, which suited my workflow better.
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