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Author Topic: Sunrise Road  (Read 4755 times)

tsjanik

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Sunrise Road
« on: August 15, 2014, 10:33:30 pm »

Michael:

Very nice image.  It captures a windless sunrise in a humid countryside.
 
Very impressive DR in that image; the outline of the sun is clearly visible.  I'll be interested in your thoughts about the 645Z.


Tom
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NancyP

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Re: Sunrise Road
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2014, 11:59:29 pm »

Lovely image.
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Hans Kruse

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Re: Sunrise Road
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2014, 11:26:37 am »

I like this moody picture also, but what disturbs my eyes is the halos around the black poles. This is on thing I have noticed as a problem in Lightroom many times with the highlights slider in situations similar to this picture. This is something I'd really wish got fixed in Lightroom as I assume the picture is post processed in Lightroom.

Eric Myrvaagnes

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Re: Sunrise Road
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2014, 11:47:43 am »

Lovely image.
I agree.
And I can't see any halos on my monitor, even enlarged substantially.
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Hans Kruse

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Re: Sunrise Road
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2014, 11:52:29 am »

I agree.
And I can't see any halos on my monitor, even enlarged substantially.


Well, maybe I'm oversensitive to it :) But see the attached enlarged picture.

michael

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Re: Sunrise Road
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2014, 11:53:18 am »

Thanks everyone,

The dynamic range of the 645z is amazing. I actually believe that it may surpass that of the Sony A7s, or at least match it. I am working on a comprehensive review with detailed analysis of most major features. It should be ready in a few weeks.

Hans, the halo is an optical illusion as much as anything. Chris and I have just spent time looking at the original image, and with no sharpening at all there is a minuscule highlight on the high contrast pole edges but none near the bottom where the contrast is lower. This may also be exacerbated by screen sharpening in Photoshop.

Michael
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Hans Kruse

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Re: Sunrise Road
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2014, 12:26:51 pm »

Hans, the halo is an optical illusion as much as anything. Chris and I have just spent time looking at the original image, and with no sharpening at all there is a minuscule highlight on the high contrast pole edges but none near the bottom where the contrast is lower. This may also be exacerbated by screen sharpening in Photoshop.

The halo I see is not the white halo close to the pole but the dark halo. I see this all the time with black or near black object against a very strong light source and taking down the highlights slider in Lightroom. Mostly I find ways around the problem but wish it wasn't there. It's not an illusion which would be nice if it was, except for me  ;)

Telecaster

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Re: Sunrise Road
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2014, 04:30:37 pm »

I see what Hans is refering to but it doesn't bother me. IMO it's a lovely, atmospheric photo.

-Dave-
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tsjanik

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Re: Sunrise Road
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2014, 05:27:50 pm »

I can see what Hans is referring to, but only after downloading and viewing in PS at 200%.  I know my first response would be to  attribute the effect to jpeg/sharpening artifacts.  That said, I took some shots of backlit  waves last week that exhibit an effect I have never seen before.  Maybe it's related, maybe not, but it's certainly more severe.  I'm attaching two photos taken at the same time with similar lighting conditions.  The first is an accurate image of the scene, the 2nd - well see for yourself. Both with a 645D; 400mm for the first; 150-300mm zoom at 300mm for the second.  Whether related or not, I'd love to hear some thoughts on what is happening.

Tom
« Last Edit: August 18, 2014, 05:38:57 pm by tsjanik »
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Hans Kruse

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Re: Sunrise Road
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2014, 06:23:54 am »

I can see what Hans is referring to, but only after downloading and viewing in PS at 200%.  I know my first response would be to  attribute the effect to jpeg/sharpening artifacts.  That said, I took some shots of backlit  waves last week that exhibit an effect I have never seen before.  Maybe it's related, maybe not, but it's certainly more severe.  I'm attaching two photos taken at the same time with similar lighting conditions.  The first is an accurate image of the scene, the 2nd - well see for yourself. Both with a 645D; 400mm for the first; 150-300mm zoom at 300mm for the second.  Whether related or not, I'd love to hear some thoughts on what is happening.

Tom

As I mentioned I see it immediately without magnification, but I have had this issue in a number of cases. One place is on Sicily at the coast shooting the lava islands with the morning sun behind them. This is a very strong contrast and attached is one picture where one is with highlights taken all the way down to -100 and the other highlights at 0. An exaggeration in this case perhaps, but shows the issue. I have had it also in Tuscany shooting cypresses in similar conditions.

I can live with the issues as I can work around it, but I wish it would be solved instead. The highlights and shadows sliders in Lightroom since version 4 is the best feature that ever came to Lightroom over the life span of Lightroom in my opinion. I still remember how some in these forums were debating if it was worth while upgrading from Lightroom 3 to Lightroom 4 :)

I brought it up as I saw it in Michaels picture. It's still a very nice picture just to be sure I'm not misread ;) ... and in the hope that some Adobe engineers are reading here and maybe have an opinion or secretly work on fixing this. The latter is the preferred in my opinion.

Hans Kruse

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Re: Sunrise Road
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2014, 10:27:46 am »

This is a common in painting...when a darker object in placed next to an object lighter in value. This is, in part, an explanation of how the eye sees value changes. In painting, an artist will make adjustments to compensate for this illusion.

You can see how this works in a simple value scale...this is known as Edge Fluting.

Peter

Thanks Peter,

The issue I'm referring to is not (as far as I can see) a result of the illusion you mention. In addition to the previous example I gave here is another one.

Attached are three pictures. The first one is the one I have published and it has highlights set to zero. The second one has highlights set to -100 is what I would prefer in order to increase the gradations in the highlights around the rising sun. I think Lightroom does a really good job on that, but note the lava rock to the right and the dark halo around it. The third version is the same as the second but only that I put a radial filter around the second rock and increased highlights around it and it made the halo go away. Notice the dark halo is nowhere else in the picture.

ErikKaffehr

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Re: Sunrise Road
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2014, 01:00:42 pm »

Hi,

I have seen that, too. It seems to come around sometimes when "Highlights" are used extensively, like -50 to -100 region. My understanding is that highlights makes use of some tone mapping, and that it may simply not work with some subjects.

Ways around it? I try to use a bit of more negative exposure and I am careful with clarity.

I would like to have a tone mapping slider for highlights and shadows, perhaps even for mid tones!

Best regards
Erik


The halo I see is not the white halo close to the pole but the dark halo. I see this all the time with black or near black object against a very strong light source and taking down the highlights slider in Lightroom. Mostly I find ways around the problem but wish it wasn't there. It's not an illusion which would be nice if it was, except for me  ;)
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Hans Kruse

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Re: Sunrise Road
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2014, 05:00:39 pm »

Hi,

I have seen that, too. It seems to come around sometimes when "Highlights" are used extensively, like -50 to -100 region. My understanding is that highlights makes use of some tone mapping, and that it may simply not work with some subjects.

Ways around it? I try to use a bit of more negative exposure and I am careful with clarity.

I would like to have a tone mapping slider for highlights and shadows, perhaps even for mid tones!

Best regards
Erik



Both highlights and shadows sliders are tone mapping sliders in Lightroom. Clarity you always need to be careful with in my opinion. For most of my landscape pictures and especially these with high DR, the highlights and shadows sliders are eseential to bring out the tonality that I look for. Almost always combined with a reduction in exposure, but how much depends on the scene and ETTR. After the tone mapping slider settings it is essential to set the black point and white point and adjust contrast accordingly. Almost landscape pictures have no problem with the issue I have raised. I do find pictures where the highlights slider do not work well and similar for the shadows slider.

SanderKikkert

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Re: Sunrise Road
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2014, 05:33:42 am »

Hi Hans,

Sander is the name, new to this intrigueing forum. (Not sure if there is an 'introductory board', but I'll find some time to introduce myself a bit more lengthily in a different topic  :))

About the lavarocks: is it just me or is the halo exactly the same in the third picture compared to the second one ? The two pictures look very similar, if not exactly the same over here on an, admittedly bad, monitor. Is there maybe a mixup in the uploads ?

I do understand and have encountered the mentioned problem with the halos in LR and I use the same workaround when needed.

Like the Sunrise Road image a lot and the one you used to highlight ( ;D ) the LR halo-problem as well and there's some very nice images on your site too.

Best Regards, Sander   


The third version is the same as the second but only that I put a radial filter around the second rock and increased highlights around it and it made the halo go away. Notice the dark halo is nowhere else in the picture.
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Hans Kruse

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Re: Sunrise Road
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2014, 11:03:03 am »

Hi Hans,

Sander is the name, new to this intrigueing forum. (Not sure if there is an 'introductory board', but I'll find some time to introduce myself a bit more lengthily in a different topic  :))

About the lavarocks: is it just me or is the halo exactly the same in the third picture compared to the second one ? The two pictures look very similar, if not exactly the same over here on an, admittedly bad, monitor. Is there maybe a mixup in the uploads ?

I do understand and have encountered the mentioned problem with the halos in LR and I use the same workaround when needed.

Like the Sunrise Road image a lot and the one you used to highlight ( ;D ) the LR halo-problem as well and there's some very nice images on your site too.

Best Regards, Sander   



Hi Sander,

Welcome on the forum. There is a lot to enjoy and to learn in here. The two last pictures are not the same (of course :)) I would advise you to look again and on a good monitor.

dchew

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Re: Sunrise Road
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2014, 07:19:31 am »

I think the confusion is around which rock. Hans you say "... the rock to the right," and I think you mean the rock to the right of the sun, in the middle of the photo. There is a dark halo around it in the second photo that is gone in the third photo (even on my mini iPad!). The rock on the far right of the photo looks the same.

Dave
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Hans Kruse

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Re: Sunrise Road
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2014, 09:38:51 am »

I think the confusion is around which rock. Hans you say "... the rock to the right," and I think you mean the rock to the right of the sun, in the middle of the photo. There is a dark halo around it in the second photo that is gone in the third photo (even on my mini iPad!). The rock on the far right of the photo looks the same.

Dave

Yes, it is the rock to the right of the sun. It is the only one that I adjusted. Thanks for pointing out the possible confusion :)

SanderKikkert

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Re: Sunrise Road
« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2014, 10:11:35 am »

Yes, it is the rock to the right of the sun. It is the only one that I adjusted. Thanks for pointing out the possible confusion :)

Oh my...I started to think I was losing it, that was what indeed confused me  :D

Allright, the screen I'm using is really really bad, but then again, not thát bad, it's just for SAP anyway...

Regards, Sander
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Hans Kruse

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Re: Sunrise Road
« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2014, 12:21:47 pm »

Oh my...I started to think I was losing it, that was what indeed confused me  :D

Allright, the screen I'm using is really really bad, but then again, not thát bad, it's just for SAP anyway...

Regards, Sander

Great and OMG SAP ;)
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