Scottish Independende Debate

[deejjjaaaa]

He probably thinks he's being very, very clever and that no-one would notice

while I think that you are trolling (by switching the discussion from UK/Scotland matters to personal attacks on participant for example), I certainly do not think that you that stupid not to understand that it is flag of the movement I support.

[Misirlou]

while I think that you are trolling (by switching the discussion from UK/Scotland matters to personal attacks on participant for example), I certainly do not think that you that stupid not to understand that it is flag of the movement I support.

Sorry, when I see your "movement's" flag, I can't stop laughing about these guys.

[john beardsworth]

Or you can see both as freedom fighters, depending on your point of view.

Sure, I agree. Some terrorists do indeed become tomorrow's statesmen, and maybe that could have applied in Crimea or East Ukraine if there had been something like secession following the Scottish or Czech examples, Swiss-style federalisation, or respect for minorities as with the Baltic states' Russians or Scotland's Gaelic regions. Instead we've had little green men invading Crimea and the deliberate provision of SA missiles to nationalist thugs.

But my point remains the hypocrisy of some joker using the flag of these murderers and making an inane point about British invasions of countries which had used poison gas on civilians and brought down two airliners. What next, as an ex-Yugoslav (I assume Serbian but I don't know) would you pontificate while using Arkan's or the Ustashe's symbols? Should the English posters here use the Duke of Cumberland's crest? In case you don't get the reference (which is obscure), he won the battle of Culloden which finally ended rebellion in Scotland.

[Christopher Sanderson]

This is veering way off topic and taking on a nasty tone.

Stick to the topic of Scotland's Independence.

Avoid personal attacks.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... would you pontificate...

John, you raise a lot of points simultaneously, which I would be happy to debate, but won't, out of respect for the OP and the subject matter of this thread. I invoked ex-Yugoslavia (and yes, I am a Serb) only when pertinent for this thread, e.g. currency issues.

P.S. The same goes for Isaac, on issues not related to Scotland

[mezzoduomo]

No, I'm too busy talking to Sean Connery (in the Bahamas).

Jeremy

+1

[john beardsworth]

John, you raise a lot of points simultaneously, which I would be happy to debate, but won't, out of respect for the OP and the subject matter of this thread. I invoked ex-Yugoslavia (and yes, I am a Serb) only when pertinent for this thread, e.g. currency issues.

I only raised one point, Slobodan, that I would have hoped we all had the good sense to avoid paramilitary or other provocative symbols.  

Otherwise I only listed examples of better ways other European countries have handled the varied problems of borders not matching national/ethnic identities. It's easy in Scotland's case - the land borders are agreed, Catholic-Protestant sectarianism has weakened, and the 10% English-born don't need protection any more than other minorities like Gallic-speakers. While the independence process has some difficulties like Yes supporters shouting down those disagreeing with them (it may be different today when the Orange Order marches through Edinburgh) those problems are mild and the process is largely a model of how nations decide to separate.

[PhotoEcosse]

In this referendum, the voting age has been lowered to 16 years. Yesterday 2000 16 and 17 year olds took part in the Big Big Debate in Glasgow.

Here is the poem that they all read at the end of the debate:


The morning after by Christine de Luca

Scotland, 19th September 2014

Let none wake despondent: one way
or another we have talked plainly,
tested ourselves, weighed up the sum
of our knowing, ta’en tent o scholars,
checked the balance sheet of risk and
fearlessness, of wisdom and of folly.

Was it about the powers we gain or how
we use them? We aim for more equality;
and for tomorrow to be more peaceful
than today; for fairness, opportunity,
the common weal; a hand stretched out
in ready hospitality.

It’s those unseen things that bind us,
not flag or battle-weary turf or tartan.
There are dragons to slay whatever happens:
poverty, false pride, snobbery, sectarian
schisms still hovering. But there’s
nothing broken that’s not repairable.

We’re a citizenry of bonnie fighters,
a gathered folk; a culture that imparts,
inspires, demands a rare devotion,
no back-tracking; that each should work
and play our several parts to bring about
the best in Scotland, an open heart.

[john beardsworth]

I'm welling up.... Not quite Jerusalem though.

Anyway have a laugh at this 'The buggers are out to get us', Scottish aristocrats talking to Tatler about their independence fears. Oh dear, grouse moors are in grave danger.

[deejjjaaaa]

or respect for minorities as with the Baltic states' Russians

get educated = http://www.noncitizens.eu/faqs

[john beardsworth]

It's you who needs educating, "deejaaa" or "vladimirovich" or whatever name you're hiding behind today. Non citizens can become citizens, doh, and rights for ethnic minorities in the Baltic states were a specific requirement for those countries' EU and NATO membership, don't you know? When you're in a glass house, don't wrap yourself up in a paramilitary flag when you throw bricks.....

[deejjjaaaa]

Non citizens can become citizens, doh, and rights for ethnic minorities in the Baltic states were a specific requirement for those countries' EU and NATO membership

the history is pretty much described in the link provided, granted the situation was improved - but you were talking about what happened right after secession in 1990, not what happened 15 years later   ... like in USA granted it is not as bad for black folks as it is used to be  - that's not the reason to forget how it was some time ago.

[deejjjaaaa]

In this referendum, the voting age has been lowered to 16 years. Yesterday 2000 16 and 17 year olds took part in the Big Big Debate in Glasgow.

http://www.dw.de/scotland-the-brave-yes-campaign-on-a-roll/a-17913763

"...Young people, polls would suggest, are increasingly in favor of Scotland leaving the 300-year union with England. Independence has a lead of 19 points among 16 to 24 year-olds..."

hopefully "YES" will prevail and uk will be weakened further, Spain - Catalonia shall be the next target, then UK - Wales.

[Justinr]

I'm welling up.... Not quite Jerusalem though.

Anyway have a laugh at this 'The buggers are out to get us', Scottish aristocrats talking to Tatler about their independence fears. Oh dear, grouse moors are in grave danger.

Thanks for that, I was expecting a rather pompous whinge but found it a well written and entertaining piece.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

Now, here is a fresh perspective on the issue:

Scotland, you want out? We'll take your place

From the article:

"If Scotland votes to secede, does that open up a spot for another country? And if so -- Scotland, can we take your place?

I realize that Americans fought a bloody war of independence from England in the late 1700s, but our rifts have healed over the past 240 years. In 2013, the Pew Research Center reported that England topped America's list of favorite nations..."

 

[analoguey]

Hehee.

I wonder if this has been discussed here - whats to happen to James Bond?

[Jeremy Roussak]

"If Scotland votes to secede, does that open up a spot for another country? And if so -- Scotland, can we take your place?

I realize that Americans fought a bloody war of independence from England in the late 1700s, but our rifts have healed over the past 240 years. In 2013, the Pew Research Center reported that England topped America's list of favorite nations..."

 

As has been alluded to elsewhere, you'd have to learn to spell first.

Jeremy

[stamper]

As has been alluded to elsewhere, you'd have to learn to spell first.

Jeremy

"If Scotland votes to secede, does that open up a spot for another country? And if so -- Scotland, can we take your place?

I realize that Americans fought a bloody war of independence from England in the late 1700s, but our rifts have healed over the past 240 years. In 2013, the Pew Research Center reported that England topped America's list of favorite nations..."

unquote

Jeremy would you like to point out the "mistakes" ? Considering English isn't Slobodan's first language I think he is doing rather well. Perhaps you can show us your grasp of the Serbian language? If I have made any "mistakes" in my post then feel free to correct them.

[Jeremy Roussak]

Jeremy would you like to point out the "mistakes" ? Considering English isn't Slobodan's first language I think he is doing rather well. Perhaps you can show us your grasp of the Serbian language? If I have made any "mistakes" in my post then feel free to correct them.

As I hoped would have been obvious, my remark was jovial; it was aimed at Americans in general, not Slobodan; and I was referring to this thread (but if you want a specific example, "favourite" has a "u" in it  ).

My Serbian could charitably be described as rudimentary.

Jeremy

[stamper]

Jeremy there wasn't a smiley in the post and there wasn't a link to another thread so your post was there to be misinterpreted by anyone reading it.