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Author Topic: Scottish Independende Debate  (Read 62762 times)

deejjjaaaa

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Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #140 on: August 30, 2014, 02:55:38 am »

For once, I agree with Isaac. As someone coming from a disintegrated country, I can tell you it is least of about governance, and much more about national identity, religion, emotions, historical animosities and grievances.
phew, scots are a neutered nation for centuries by now... even irish folk fare better, I mean they actually killed few ukies during our lifetime.
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Jeremy Roussak

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Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #141 on: August 30, 2014, 03:37:22 am »

phew, scots are a neutered nation for centuries by now... even irish folk fare better, I mean they actually killed few ukies during our lifetime.

And murder's good, eh?

Jeremy
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stamper

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Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #142 on: August 30, 2014, 04:26:52 am »

Nobody can foretell the future accurately. There are some things that will likely happen as you want them to be and others won't happen as you want them to be. Yet some people are trying to place a burden on the SNP to answer all of their questions accurately. Two things I believe that are likely to happen are in the event that a No is the verdict then the Tories will undertake savage cuts - they have stated this - mostly on the Scots but also on their own people. In the event of a Yes vote then the savage cuts can be avoided or reduced drastically. Some English and other nationalities will move back down south but quickly realise how savage the cuts are and will want to return. In the long run I envisage migration into a free Scotland because of savage cuts by the Tories. To sum up start up costs and other costs that will be incurred by a free Scotland will pale into insignificance compared to the savage cuts by the Tories. IMO this is what undecided and NO should be thinking about and everything else is of lesser importance. This is why I am voting YES. :) BTW the English are going to have to endure savage cuts no matter the outcome of the vote. :(

AreBee

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Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #143 on: August 30, 2014, 07:44:13 am »

shawnino,

Quote
I guess what I'm struggling with is how anyone can vote "yes" without knowing the exact particulars...Why would I ever vote for change if I don't know what change means?

Implicit in your question is that:

(a) An electorate normally knows the "exact particulars" ahead of a vote, which is untrue.

(b) That the UK will not change, when it is a matter of historical fact that the UK has changed dramatically. There is no reason to expect that change will no longer take place.




Colorado David,

Quote
http://news.stv.tv/scotland-decides/polls/282505-new-referendum-poll-suggests-support-for-yes-vote-has-fallen/

The article you provided a link to is one month old. Please allow me to provide you with an article one day old:

http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/latest-indy-poll-yes-42-no-48-undecided-11-.1409286439
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deejjjaaaa

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Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #144 on: August 30, 2014, 10:07:41 am »

And murder's good, eh?

Jeremy

it was (and still is) is a just cause...  the enemy of my enemy (c)... so I wish Scots to find some long lost balls soon, nothing will be more pleasant than to see England sinking into further obsolence.
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Jeremy Roussak

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Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #145 on: August 30, 2014, 10:54:36 am »

it was (and still is) is a just cause...  the enemy of my enemy (c)... so I wish Scots to find some long lost balls soon, nothing will be more pleasant than to see England sinking into further obsolence.

Your morals are on a par with your spelling.

Jeremy
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shawnino

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Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #146 on: August 30, 2014, 10:59:14 am »

@AreBee: so why not complete the negotiations first if it's going to be so wonderful?
Why ask for people to vote for that pig in a poke?

What happens when "Yes" wins and the negotiations yield something the people are unhappy with?
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AreBee

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Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #147 on: August 30, 2014, 11:39:02 am »

shawnino,

Quote
...so why not complete the negotiations first if it's going to be so wonderful?

The Westminster government has from the outset ruled out any pre-negotiation...and has since then proceeded to pre-negotiate by announcing that there will be no currency union.

Quote
What happens when "Yes" wins and the negotiations yield something the people are unhappy with?

Your question presupposes that Yes voters expect to 'get everything their own way' during the negotiation period that will follow a Yes result. In my view, Yes voters have accepted before they cast their vote that Scotland will accept liabilities as well as assets.
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john beardsworth

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Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #148 on: August 30, 2014, 12:02:25 pm »

The Westminster government has from the outset ruled out any pre-negotiation...and has since then proceeded to pre-negotiate by announcing that there will be no currency union.

It's not "pre-negotiation", whatever that may be, just stating clearly that English voters wouldn't stomach it, just like the separatists say the Faslane nuclear sub facility will close.

I can't imagine significant negotiation could ever precede a referendum. It's an enormous effort and would be a colossal waste of time if the vote went against it. So it has to be a vote on whether or not you want a land of milk and honey, and sorting out the rest over the following years.
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deejjjaaaa

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Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #149 on: August 30, 2014, 12:34:19 pm »

"… John and Joseph McCaig, and their 23-year-old colleague Dougald McCaughey … There is absolutely no doubt that this is a further attempt by republicans to remove from history the fact that the IRA murdered three young boys, two brothers aged 17 and 18 and the third aged 23 who were unarmed and out for an off duty afternoon in Belfast in 1971 simply because they were in the British Army."
they were serving the british occupants who murdered millions of Irish folks - they had a choice to refuse.
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shawnino

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Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #150 on: August 30, 2014, 03:03:03 pm »

shawnino,

The Westminster government has from the outset ruled out any pre-negotiation...and has since then proceeded to pre-negotiate by announcing that there will be no currency union.

Your question presupposes that Yes voters expect to 'get everything their own way' during the negotiation period that will follow a Yes result. In my view, Yes voters have accepted before they cast their vote that Scotland will accept liabilities as well as assets.

How about answering my question, instead of muttering about what it allegedly presupposes. My question's a fair one, especially since you point out that Westminster is playing games--claiming no pre-negotiation one minute, then ruling out a common currency the next. Here it is again:

--Voters vote "yes"
--Negotiations yield something quite unpalatable to a majority of Scots...
...what then?

The longer this goes, the more it becomes obvious that a "yes" vote is mostly based on emotion and unfounded optimism (unfounded in its literal sense: negotiations may turn out OK, but there's been no proof of it).

Makes one wonder if what the "yes" side really needs is "Braveheart" on television 24/7.
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john beardsworth

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Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #151 on: August 30, 2014, 03:12:21 pm »

Makes one wonder if what the "yes" side really needs is "Braveheart" on television 24/7.

Well, it is the 700th anniversary of Bannockburn this year, coincidentally of course.
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AreBee

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Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #152 on: August 30, 2014, 06:03:41 pm »

shawnino,

Quote
How about answering my question...

How about asking in a civilised manner?
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stamper

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Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #153 on: August 31, 2014, 04:04:27 am »

Quote Shawnino Reply#158

-Negotiations yield something quite unpalatable to a majority of Scots...
...what then?

If it was a game of cards then Scotland has two aces and England none. They could agree to keep Trident in Scotland and they could walk away from their share of the almost 1.5 trillion pound deficit which is 150 billion pounds. A lot of money for the English taxpayer to take on as a burden. ;D
« Last Edit: August 31, 2014, 05:45:30 am by stamper »
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stamper

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Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #154 on: August 31, 2014, 05:42:16 am »

Read this and weep.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/10849333/Interest-bill-on-UKs-1.27-trillion-debt-to-hit-1bn-a-week.html

Scotland has a chance to LEGALLY walk away from this mess. There will be savage cuts and rising taxes to pay for the mess otherwise the Uk will crash and burn just as Greece has done. If you are on a sinking ship - the SS UK - and there is a lifeboat bobbing around do you stay on the ship or do you board the lifeboat even though it isn't certain to reach land? The debt is rising and £50 billion a year is a lot of money to find. It is rather ironic that Gordon Brown and Alistair Darling - who loathe each other - are lecturing Scotland on economics and they are responsible for the massive debt. :'( :( >:(

Dave (Isle of Skye)

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Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #155 on: August 31, 2014, 07:54:56 am »

Let us look at a few indisputable facts shall we and cut straight through the rhetoric and emotional fog being put out by both sides in this debate.

Indisputable Fact 1 – Politicians lie, Cameron is lying and so is Salmond, Sturgeon and Darling etc, they will say anything to you and promise you anything you want to get you to vote for them or their half baked ideas. In fact they are so good at lying that they even begin to believe their own lies, that is until it comes to actually putting their promises into action, then you start getting the “Ah well, I didn’t really mean it like that” type statements – a pox on all their houses I say. However, if you are still young enough to believe anything that any politician ever says to you, or promises that they freely give to you for your support, then I apologise for bursting your bubble and know that it is only a matter of time, before the indisputability of this fact and the truth of what I am saying becomes oh so apparent to you in later life.

Indisputable fact 2 – No one knows what will happen if there is a yes vote and Scotland becomes a wholly independent country, it could be good and it could be bad, no one knows, no matter how confidently they tell you that they do, they are lying.

Indisputable fact 3 – Once the vote is cast for yes, then the real consequences of that decision will begin to take effect and most of it will be out of anyone’s control, we will have jumped down a rabbit hole and absolutely no one knows where it will lead us.

Indisputable fact 4 – There is no going back, it is a one-way street which ever way the vote goes.

Indisputable fact 5 – You must base your decision for independence on your current circumstances and how you feel right now, because to do anything else is to base your decision for you and your family's future on guesswork, meaningless promises and lies.

So I suppose it comes down to how you feel you are doing right now in this world and are you happy with your lot as it currently stands? And if you are totally honest with yourself, can you not see that you are doing quite well? Yes I know things could be better, things could always be better if ever we could only find nirvana, but we never will, it doesn’t exist, even though politicians will promise you how it is just around that next corner if you vote for them, it isn't, but don’t you realise that you have better life opportunities than your parents ever had and their parents before them and their parents before them etc?

So however much we like to moan about life and how our glasses are always half empty and never half full, the world is becoming a better place, slowly but surely I grant you, but none the less a better place. So do you really think separation is going to be that instant ticket to a land of milk and honey and that your old world was just so awful, that you needed to take this leap of faith and sign up to separation based on what a bunch of lying politicians are telling you? Or do you actually look at your life and accept and realise just how good it is compared to every other generation that has ever lived before you?

Indisputable fact 6 – Only the Scottish politicians will gain from independence, not you and not me, the other lot down South will not gain anything from the union remaining intact either, as that is the current status quo, that is what is happening right now, so whatever there was to be gained for them, has already been long gone.

Indisputable fact 7 - The grass will not be any greener in an independent Scotland and you know you can believe me, because I am not a politician. So as I said earlier, let’s get real shall we, independence will not bring you any benefits and neither will staying with the rest of the UK, you will not be better off whoever is running the show, but the politicians will always be better off and that is why they want your vote and will promise you anything you want, and who’s interest in you and all those solemnly made promises, will immediately and completely disappear as soon as the last ballet paper is signed.

That is why I am voting No.

Dave
« Last Edit: August 31, 2014, 08:08:40 am by Dave (Isle of Skye) »
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stamper

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Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #156 on: August 31, 2014, 09:09:13 am »

Dave you are correct we won't be "better off" in an independent Scotland but imo we will be a lot worse off in a united Britain. You didn't comment on the austerity cuts that is coming our way. I suspect you have done what a lot of others have. That is you think you will probably be unaffected by the cuts so self interest is to the fore? I am pretty certain that I won't be affected by the cuts but I am also looking at the big picture and voting YES. :)

Dave (Isle of Skye)

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Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #157 on: August 31, 2014, 10:24:04 am »

Dave you are correct we won't be "better off" in an independent Scotland but imo we will be a lot worse off in a united Britain. You didn't comment on the austerity cuts that is coming our way. I suspect you have done what a lot of others have. That is you think you will probably be unaffected by the cuts so self interest is to the fore? I am pretty certain that I won't be affected by the cuts but I am also looking at the big picture and voting YES. :)

Robert, with all due respect, you do not know that 'savage cuts' as you put it in one of your earlier post, are coming, they might be and they might not be and seeing as we are throwing unknowns into the pot, how can you be sure the cuts wouldn't be even worse under independence? But remember, neither you nor I know what will happen, so for you to say there will be 'savage cuts' with such certainty, means you are either guessing and hoping you are correct and that it does indeed turn out bad if we stay unified, or swallowing what Alex Salmond (a politician and therefore a liar) is telling you.

Robert, you have to make your decisions on the here and now, not what some idiot who has smooched his or her way into power is telling you about what they think will happen - don't believe them, only believe what you have now and what you value right now, the future you are being promised or warned against by all sides, is not real and never will be.

Are you happy with what you have right now? That is the only question you should be asking yourself and is it worth the risk of changing any of that based on the biases and misinformation put out by a class of people, who have made a profession out of lying?

Dave
« Last Edit: August 31, 2014, 10:37:25 am by Dave (Isle of Skye) »
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AreBee

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Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #158 on: August 31, 2014, 11:20:51 am »

Isaac,

Quote
The referendum seems to be more about who would be winners and who would be losers after allocation of assets and liabilities, than governance.

To some, yes, more's the pity. To others, no.
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AreBee

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Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #159 on: August 31, 2014, 01:22:10 pm »

Isaac,

Quote
I think you put forward a somewhat abstract, distanced, view on what the referendum means to people. I suspect that is a minority viewpoint.

I have not volunteered what the referendum means to people. I accept, as confirmed in my response to Slobodan, that "People may consider the referendum to be about many things. That is their prerogative."
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