Gaza's on-going Palestinian civilians Killing

[Chairman Bill]

Well documented by the Israelis. So the shelling/drone strikes of UN schools, despite Israel being well-informed of their locations, is the Israelis doing everything to avoid civilian casualties? Or is it gross military incompetence? Do tell.

[PeterAit]

The Israelis have done everything in their power to avoid killing civilians

This is not true. They have not done the one thing that is guaranteed to prevent civilian casualties: don't bomb, don't shell.

[ripgriffith]

Have your sources for these stories also explained that the moon is made of green cheese? The attempts by the Israelis to avoid civilian casualties are well documented.

Aren't your knee-jerks endangering your chin?

[mezzoduomo]

So the shelling/drone strikes of UN schools, despite Israel being well-informed of their locations, is the Israelis doing everything to avoid civilian casualties? Or is it gross military incompetence? Do tell.

It's neither, but thanks for positing the false choice. It's the Israelis doing what they think is necessary to kill Hamas fighters who are often nearby, something they are doing very effectively. They do 'everything' they can to avoid civilian casualties...but only insofar as it's consistent with accomplishing their mission. Its a balancing act, it will never be easy, and the world is quite obviously divided about this situation. But as many Arab nations line up behind Israel, the culpability and the utter depravity of Hamas should be pretty obvious.

Personally, I'd like to see massive, intense humanitarian relief efforts, provided jointly by the US and Egypt. But can that happen while Hamas is busy breaking every ceasefire?  Israel should declare a 48 hour unilateral ceasefire and maintain it irrespective of what Hamas does in those intervening 48 hours. Let the world watch what happens, and we'll have a better idea who actually wants peace.

[ripgriffith]

It's neither, but thanks for positing the false choice. It's the Israelis doing what they think is necessary to kill Hamas fighters who are often nearby, something they are doing very effectively. They do 'everything' they can to avoid civilian casualties...but only insofar as it's consistent with accomplishing their mission. Its a balancing act, it will never be easy, and the world is quite obviously divided about this situation. But as many Arab nations line up behind Israel, the culpability and the utter depravity of Hamas should be pretty obvious.

Personally, I'd like to see massive, intense humanitarian relief efforts, provided jointly by the US and Egypt. But can that happen while Hamas is busy breaking every ceasefire?  Israel should declare a 48 hour unilateral ceasefire and maintain it irrespective of what Hamas does in those intervening 48 hours. Let the world watch what happens, and we'll have a better idea who actually wants peace.

Quite clearly, Israel doesn't care a fig about civilian casualties so long as they're Palestinian. 

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... How the hell do you think you can destroy rocket launchers, munitions storage sites, etc., without damaging and killing civilians if the people you're fighting deliberately locate those facilities in the middle of populated areas, schools, hospitals, etc.?...

Russ, since you are such a stickler for war crimes, how about this then:

Protocol 1, Article 51 of the Geneva Conventions explicitly prohibits the bombardment of cities where civilian population might be concentrated regardless of any method.

[RSL]

Hmmm. . . I don't recall the Germans paying much attention to that protocol when they bombed and rocketed London, and I don't recall the Allies paying much attention to that protocol when they bombed, say, Dresden.

But the worst part of your argument, Slobodan is that you obviously failed to read the protocol before you posted. What the protocol actually says is this:

-----------------------------------------------

1. The civilian population and individual civilians shall enjoy general protection against dangers arising from military operations. To give effect to this protection, the following rules, which are additional to other applicable rules of international law, shall be observed in all circumstances.

2. The civilian population as such, as well as individual civilians, shall not be the object of attack. Acts or threats of violence the primary purpose of which is to spread terror among the civilian population are prohibited.

3. Civilians shall enjoy the protection afforded by this Section, unless and for such time as they take a direct part in hostilities.

4. Indiscriminate attacks are prohibited. Indiscriminate attacks are:

(a) those which are not directed at a specific military objective;

(b) those which employ a method or means of combat which cannot be directed at a specific military objective; or

(c) those which employ a method or means of combat the effects of which cannot be limited as required by this Protocol; and consequently, in each such case, are of a nature to strike military objectives and civilians or civilian objects without distinction.

----------------------------------------------------

Looks as if there are few problems with your understanding of how Israeli actions intersect with the protocol.

1. Clearly the Israelis aren't trying to spread terror. They're busting their butts and hazarding their troops to get civilians away from Hamas's military facilities -- without much success I might add.

2. Israeli attacks are directed at specific military objectives.

3. The Israeli attacks are under strict control, unlike Hamas's rockets which are aimed generally and randomly at civilian concentrations.

On the other hand, reading the protocol instead of guessing what it says it becomes quite clear that war crimes are being committed by Hamas. Their rocket launches violate every one of the prohibitions in the protocol.

[RSL]

Interesting way to look at things really.

I don't want to insult you, Bernard, but I won't be responding to your misinformation from here on out. It's pretty clear you've had the Hamas propaganda pipe surgically implanted. To quote Wellington: "If you believe that you will believe anything."

[Chairman Bill]

And Russ, you seem to swallow all the Israeli propaganda. The simple fact is that Hamas is a terrorist organisation & the world would be better off if it was eliminated. At the same time, the Israeli actions over the years have amounted to terrorism of the Palestinian people. Both the Israeli government & Hamas shoulder the blame, but it's the innocent civilians that are shouldering the brunt of the violent fall-out.

[ripgriffith]

And Russ, you seem to swallow all the Israeli propaganda. The simple fact is that Hamas is a terrorist organisation & the world would be better off if it was eliminated. At the same time, the Israeli actions over the years have amounted to terrorism of the Palestinian people. Both the Israeli government & Hamas shoulder the blame, but it's the innocent civilians that are shouldering the brunt of the violent fall-out.

I'm sorry, Russ is obviously incapable of understanding this.  To him, if Israel does it, it's just fine; if Hamas does it, it's obviously terrorism and should be stamped out to the last Palestinian.  Talk about something being implanted in the brain!

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

Hmmm. . . I don't recall the Germans paying much attention to that protocol when they bombed and rocketed London, and I don't recall the Allies paying much attention to that protocol when they bombed, say, Dresden...

That's because the "protocol" did not exist then.

[Isaac]

I have no particular feelings for or against Israel…

Bernard, when you posted the Jul 26th 2014 Jon Snow news report, you chose to characterize it as a report of "genocide".

Nowhere in that news report does Jon Snow suggest this should be described as "genocide".

Hamas is in no way a serious threat to the state of Israel, they are only a vague threat to continued expansion of theft of Palestinian soil.

"…the kind of attacks that are being made in civilian areas in Israel by Palestinian armed groups clearly violate the laws of war … these Israeli strikes … appear to have violated the laws of war …"    David Mepham, UK director at Human Rights Watch

The Washington bureau chief of Al-Hayat, Joyce Karam, was one of the few people to notice the weekend death toll in Syria. She tweeted, in reference to anti-Israel protests in Pakistan, “Syria is essentially Gaza x320 death toll, x30 number of refugees, but no protest in Pakistan…”  

I asked her why she thought this is so. Her answer: “Only reason I can think of is Muslim killing Muslim or Arab killing Arab seems more acceptable than Israel killing Arabs.”

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... Nowhere in that news report does Jon Snow suggest this should be described as "genocide".

Ah, Isaac, you hairsplitopath!

[RSL]

That's because the "protocol" did not exist then.

Quite right, and atrocities like London and Dresden are what led to the protocol. Since then the only people I can think of who've violated the protocol are Hamas and other jihadist fanatics who've randomly attacked Israel's civilian population.

And on this page it appears we have a couple more folks who've been surgically connected to Hamas's propaganda pipeline.

[RSL]

And so Israel, responding to Hamas's ongoing random attacks against their civilian population, is "genocide," but Hamas's attacks on Israel with the avowed intention of removing Israel from the face of the earth and killing all Jews is NOT genocide? You guys need to look up the word "genocide"* and learn what it means before you try to use it.

* Genocide: The systematic killing of people on the basis of ethnicity, religion, political opinion, social status, etc.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

Ok, folks, let's imagine the following scenario: IRA detonates a bomb in London (no, that is not the part to imagine). Then, U.K. government sends bombers and artillery to fight IRA and to restore "piece and calm" in London, and in the process "accidentally" kills thousands of civilians and hundreds of children. How would the world see that? As a legitimate self-defense?

[Vladimirovich]

And Russ, you seem to swallow all the Israeli propaganda. The simple fact is that Hamas is a terrorist organisation & the world would be better off if it was eliminated. At the same time, the Israeli actions over the years have amounted to terrorism of the Palestinian people. Both the Israeli government & Hamas shoulder the blame, but it's the innocent civilians that are shouldering the brunt of the violent fall-out.

so true

[Vladimirovich]

that's a good solution... granting a citizenship to arab population of gaza and west bank shall actually solve the problem pronto :-).

[Vladimirovich]

My views: The civilian casualties are almost entirely the responsibility of Hamas.

indeed... and Nazi reprisals for actions of the/whatever resistance were solely responsibity of the said resistance 

[Vladimirovich]

I heard a news report from Israeli sources saying that remains found suggested Goldin never was captured but died in combat.

he didn't... Israel has a policy to kill captured IDF personnel to prevent a hostage situation... so as soon as IDF heard about capture they bombed the area to kill that Lt.... no Lt no problem