Best copal 0 lens btwn 50 and 120mm?

[DanielStone]

Bernard,
have you see the Coastal Optics APO-Macro UV/IR-capable lens?
pretty neat, but not sure it's "too much" for your needs...
http://diglloyd.com/articles/CoastalOptics60f4/index.html
http://www.jenoptik-inc.com/coastalopt-standard-lenses/uv-vis-nir-60mm-slr-lens-mainmenu-155.html
[pdf download link for brochure of lens]: http://www.coastalopt.com/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_download&gid=29

-Dan

[dchew]

I don't know Bernard, I think the rave, especially with the 90 & 60 highlighted so far is their image circle, and how sharp they are far out into that image circle. For example, my interest in the 90 was because, like you, I play in the mountains. The 90 replaces my 100hr AND my 70hr. With the 90 I can do a 2-image shift in seconds by sliding the back on the STC and get the same angle of view as the 70 with more detail. And my pack got lighter in the process. How often does that happen? 

But having experimented with the Zeiss 100/a7r as shown in the images I sent you, I don't see any compelling benefits, and a few downsides to setting up a rig (like the new Cambo) that mates LF lenses to that sensor. Especially if shifting to you is not important and tilt is "meh".

And even less so vs the Otus.

Dave

Erik,

Tilt would be nice, I see no value in shift for what I do.

I am simply looking for the best possible lens to put in front of a D800/D810 sensor. I keep hearing that LF type digitar lenses are in a totally different league even compared to the best 35mm lenses such a the Otus of the Zeiss 135mm f2.0.

Cheers,
Bernard

[Paul2660]

If you are after shift, the A7r with tech wides may not be a good solution. The A7r when shifted with the 60XL Schneider really shows a severe loss of color saturation even with only 6mm of shift. By 15mm the amount if color loss in very noticeable as the far edges start to look like a B&W image.   The 40mm Rodenstock does a bit better but not much.

The LCC a bit but it won't get most of the color back.  You can work work some back in C1 bit trying to get the sky to blend is really tough especially if it's pure blue.

I guess this is "pixel crosstalk" that Toger has commented on. 

Paul

[MrSmith]

sort of a thread hijack but its not really worthy of its own thread.
i just had an impulse purchase of a rodenstock 60mm WA f4 enlarging lens to hopefully use on a cambo actus with an a7r for tabletop photography and for near macro of wristwatches. it covers 6x6 but the spec says ‘recommended scale range 4× - 15×'
maths is not my strong point and i get brain fade with numbers, i understand 1:1 being true macro and the object being the same size on the sensor but come somebody explain the scale range for me?  
the lens was very cheap so if i have bought a lemon i’ll not lose a great deal.

[ondebanks]

sort of a thread hijack but its not really worthy of its own thread.
i just had an impulse purchase of a rodenstock 60mm WA f4 enlarging lens to hopefully use on a cambo actus with an a7r for tabletop photography and for near macro of wristwatches. it covers 6x6 but the spec says ‘recommended scale range 4× - 15×'
maths is not my strong point and i get brain fade with numbers, i understand 1:1 being true macro and the object being the same size on the sensor but come somebody explain the scale range for me?  
the lens was very cheap so if i have bought a lemon i’ll not lose a great deal.

I think the scale range 4× - 15× refers to the enlargement factor from film to printing paper. IOW they are not recommending enlargements of more than 15x.

Ray

[MrSmith]

Does that then work in reverse for taking not enlarging images? Therefore an object from a bottle of wine (15 times higher than a 35mm sensor) to a watch (4x bigger than a 35mm sensor) would be in the ideal range? Or have I got this all wrong?

[Steve Hendrix]

If you are after shift, the A7r with tech wides may not be a good solution. The A7r when shifted with the 60XL Schneider really shows a severe loss of color saturation even with only 6mm of shift. By 15mm the amount if color loss in very noticeable as the far edges start to look like a B&W image.   The 40mm Rodenstock does a bit better but not much.

The LCC a bit but it won't get most of the color back.  You can work work some back in C1 bit trying to get the sky to blend is really tough especially if it's pure blue.

I guess this is "pixel crosstalk" that Toger has commented on. 

Paul

Hi Paul -

What examples are you referring to with this combination?


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

It is an enlarging lens, optimised for 4x-15x enlargements. So, in macro work it would be good for 1/4 to 1/15 scale I guess. For enlargement you just turn it around, I guess.

Best regards
Erik

sort of a thread hijack but its not really worthy of its own thread.
i just had an impulse purchase of a rodenstock 60mm WA f4 enlarging lens to hopefully use on a cambo actus with an a7r for tabletop photography and for near macro of wristwatches. it covers 6x6 but the spec says ‘recommended scale range 4× - 15×'
maths is not my strong point and i get brain fade with numbers, i understand 1:1 being true macro and the object being the same size on the sensor but come somebody explain the scale range for me?  
the lens was very cheap so if i have bought a lemon i’ll not lose a great deal.

[Paul2660]

Hi Paul -

What examples are you referring to with this combination?


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

Steve,

I have been testing the DSLR2 Arca and an a A7r.  With my first testing, I used the 60XL and 40 HR-W.  My focal target was within about 40 yards max. I had a blue sky with no clouds, to me one of the hardest things to blend back when shifting.  The 60XL at 15mm of left shift showed quite a bit of color fall off, mainly in the greens and hue shift in blue.  The LCC showed a pretty strong Magenta cast on the left side (shifted side).  When I worked the images up in C1, I was able to get most of the green back to my satisfaction with C1 LCC recovery, however the blue sky was very hard to blend, I was able to get close with a bit of work in Photoshop using various filters and layer adjustments.    With the 60XL I had the CF on.  The 40 HR-W did a bit better and had a better recovery.  In both of these focus cases, I had the rear element of the lens very close the Sony sensor, with both the 60XL and 40mm Rodenstock.

Today, working in a field with my subject about 200 to 300 yards out, things were much better.  The lens did not have to come as close to the Camera so I did not see as much casts, and what I saw on the LCC mostly seemed to correct in C1.  The sky had clouds today which made the blues easier to work with but even with that the sky also was easier since I did not have as much color casts. 

I was able to easily get 15mm/16mm of shift on the 60XL and 18mm of shift on the 40 HR-W.  I also used the 90HR Rodenstock and it did fine at 15mm, in fact almost no magenta cast on shift of 15mm.  Focus was a bit harder than the wider lenses, as with this rig, just a tad of a touch and you can be out of focus.  DOF was also a bit tricky with the 90mm, but the DSLR2 has plenty of movements so I was able to get focus solutions both vertical and horizontal.

Paul

[dchew]

Paul,
Isn't this backwards? Why was the lens further away from the sensor when focusing on a 200-300 yd subject vs. a 40 yd subject?

Dave

Steve,

I have been testing the DSLR2 Arca and an a A7r.  With my first testing, I used the 60XL and 40 HR-W.  My focal target was within about 40 yards max. I had a blue sky with no clouds, to me one of the hardest things to blend back when shifting.  The 60XL at 15mm of left shift showed quite a bit of color fall off, mainly in the greens and hue shift in blue.  The LCC showed a pretty strong Magenta cast on the left side (shifted side).  When I worked the images up in C1, I was able to get most of the green back to my satisfaction with C1 LCC recovery, however the blue sky was very hard to blend, I was able to get close with a bit of work in Photoshop using various filters and layer adjustments.    With the 60XL I had the CF on.  The 40 HR-W did a bit better and had a better recovery.  In both of these focus cases, I had the rear element of the lens very close the Sony sensor, with both the 60XL and 40mm Rodenstock.

Today, working in a field with my subject about 200 to 300 yards out, things were much better.  The lens did not have to come as close to the Camera so I did not see as much casts, and what I saw on the LCC mostly seemed to correct in C1.  The sky had clouds today which made the blues easier to work with but even with that the sky also was easier since I did not have as much color casts.  

I was able to easily get 15mm/16mm of shift on the 60XL and 18mm of shift on the 40 HR-W.  I also used the 90HR Rodenstock and it did fine at 15mm, in fact almost no magenta cast on shift of 15mm.  Focus was a bit harder than the wider lenses, as with this rig, just a tad of a touch and you can be out of focus.  DOF was also a bit tricky with the 90mm, but the DSLR2 has plenty of movements so I was able to get focus solutions both vertical and horizontal.

Paul

[Paul2660]

I know it does sound backwards. But the distance was greater. Not by much about a 1/4 or so of an inch. Setup was all the same.   But going to check again tomorrow.

Paul

[dchew]

Yeah something isn't right there. For the 60xl, the difference in lens position from the sensor for 300 yds vs. 40 yds is ~0.08mm. On the 40hr it's even less, like 0.04mm.

Dave

[MrSmith]

Hi,

It is an enlarging lens, optimised for 4x-15x enlargements. So, in macro work it would be good for 1/4 to 1/15 scale I guess. For enlargement you just turn it around, I guess.

Best regards
Erik

I think you mean 'for true macro beyond 1:1 you reverse the lens'
I guess the only way to be sure is to try the lens out, I think I'll pick the other focal length lenses from the horesman/rodenstock list for their VCC-pro camera, what works for that should be good for the actus. I'm not sure how far I'm going to commit to the system so do not want to invest in £1800 each for digitar copal lenses if I'm not using them enough.

I wonder if the actus dealers will stock these lenses or will that steal sales of expensive 'digital' lenses (with shutters you don't need) ?

[Paul2660]

Yeah something isn't right there. For the 60xl, the difference in lens position from the sensor for 300 yds vs. 40 yds is ~0.08mm. On the 40hr it's even less, like 0.04mm.

Dave

Dave, I went back this morning and immediately realized my mistake, I had used the 60XL and 40 HR-W and got a bit confused as to which was on the camera in my mind.  The view on 35mm is pretty similar.  40 vs 60.  I am using the Acra M2 setup for DSLR mounts which Arca calls the DSLR2.

The 60XL shows more color cast at times that's all I can figure out.  It's also VERY dependent on getting the lens and camera lined up straight.  This is not as easy as it seems at least for me.  If you are off just a bit, then of course the shifts will show more color cast since the lens is not optimized on the setup.  I am getting better at this now, but it does make me appreciate just how accurate the Arca rm3di is and how much easier it is to setup, especially field setup.

The 40 HR-W has more color cast issues than I thought it would on extreme shifts, 15mm or more.  You really start to see the loss of color on the last 5mm or so of the shift.  I am using a CF on the 60XL, but not on the 40 HR-W.

From my shooting, it seems the Sony A7r is consistently showing more magenta cast on left shifts than right, on right, there is a bit but mainly just normal light fall off.  Not sure why this would be.

Paul

[BernardLanguillier]

From my shooting, it seems the Sony A7r is consistently showing more magenta cast on left shifts than right, on right, there is a bit but mainly just normal light fall off.  Not sure why this would be.

Paul,

Could it be that the sensor's alignment relative to the mount isn't perfect?

Cheers,
Bernard

[dchew]

Paul,

Could it be that the sensor's alignment relative to the mount isn't perfect?

Cheers,
Bernard

I really think that is a big part of it. Although I will say my neutral (no shift) LCC's from my 40hr are not symmetrical in their cast. I think Torger has some explanation for that, but it is too much physics for me.

Dave, I went back this morning and immediately realized my mistake, I had used the 60XL and 40 HR-W and got a bit confused as to which was on the camera in my mind.  The view on 35mm is pretty similar.  40 vs 60.  I am using the Acra M2 setup for DSLR mounts which Arca calls the DSLR2.

The 60XL shows more color cast at times that's all I can figure out.  It's also VERY dependent on getting the lens and camera lined up straight.  This is not as easy as it seems at least for me.  If you are off just a bit, then of course the shifts will show more color cast since the lens is not optimized on the setup.  I am getting better at this now, but it does make me appreciate just how accurate the Arca rm3di is and how much easier it is to setup, especially field setup.

The 40 HR-W has more color cast issues than I thought it would on extreme shifts, 15mm or more.  You really start to see the loss of color on the last 5mm or so of the shift.  I am using a CF on the 60XL, but not on the 40 HR-W.

From my shooting, it seems the Sony A7r is consistently showing more magenta cast on left shifts than right, on right, there is a bit but mainly just normal light fall off.  Not sure why this would be.

Paul

This probably makes sense. The 40 has a shorter base mount vs. the 60, but the lens elements protrude well past the base probably to straighten out the angle of incidence. See the photos here:
http://www.alpa.ch/en/products/lenses/exclusive-alpa-rodenstock-lenses/rodenstock-alpa-hr-alpagon-4_0-40-mm-sb17.html

vs the 60xl:
http://www.alpa.ch/en/products/lenses/exclusive-alpa-schneider-lenses/alpa-apo-helvetar-5_6-60-mm-sb17.html

Paul, you are making me even more curious to run this lens through it's paces when it arrives. I have the 40hr and the 70hr, so I should be able to do some robust comparisons.

Dave

[HarperPhotos]

Hello,

Did this test at a local park on a lovely winters morning using my Horseman VCC Pro, Nikon D800E and a selection of Rodenstock Apo Rodagon lenses.

All shot with mirror up and focused using live view.

The raw test images which you can download from the link below go as.

https://www.hightail.com/download/ZUcwTkZ1UzcxUURLd01UQw

75mm Rodenstock Apo Rodagon Lens

No1, F8.0
No2, F11.0
No3, F16.0

80mm Rodenstock Apo Rodagon Lens

No4, F8.0
No5, F11.0
No6, F16.0

90mm Rodenstock Apo Rodagon Lens

No7, F8.0
No8, F11.0
No9, F16.0

105mm Rodenstock Apo Rodagon Lens

No10, F8.0
No11, F11.0
No12, F16.0

120mm Rodenstock Apo Rodagon Lens

No13, F8.0
No14, F11.0
No15, F16.0
No16, F22.0

90mm Rodenstock Apo Rodagon Lens

No19, F11.0

Enjoy.

Cheers

Simon

[Steve Hendrix]

Hello,

Did this test at a local park on a lovely winters morning using my Horseman VCC Pro, Nikon D800E and a selection of Rodenstock Apo Rodagon lenses.

All shot with mirror up and focused using live view.

The raw test images which you can download from the link below go as.

https://www.hightail.com/download/ZUcwTkZ1UzcxUURLd01UQw

75mm Rodenstock Apo Rodagon Lens

No1, F8.0
No2, F11.0
No3, F16.0

80mm Rodenstock Apo Rodagon Lens

No4, F8.0
No5, F11.0
No6, F16.0

90mm Rodenstock Apo Rodagon Lens

No7, F8.0
No8, F11.0
No9, F16.0

105mm Rodenstock Apo Rodagon Lens

No10, F8.0
No11, F11.0
No12, F16.0

120mm Rodenstock Apo Rodagon Lens

No13, F8.0
No14, F11.0
No15, F16.0
No16, F22.0

90mm Rodenstock Apo Rodagon Lens

No19, F11.0

Enjoy.

Cheers

Simon

All these look pretty sharp Simon with the exception - to my eyes - of:

75mm Rodenstock Apo Rodagon Lens @ f/8, f/11, f/16
80mm Rodenstock Apo Rodagon Lens @ f/16
90mm Rodenstock Apo Rodagon Lens @ f/16
105mm Rodenstock Apo Rodagon Lens @ f/16
120mm Rodenstock Apo Rodagon Lens @ f/16, f/22

Not too surprising, considering all the results look good except the f/16 - f/22 (which I would expect), except the 75mm for some reason at all apertures.

Thanks for the test files.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

[MrSmith]

Thanks for taking the time to do those tests Simon.
Will download when I'm at my computer.
I think the 75 is the one optimised for 1:1 and was available in 1x and 2x versions? It may have been a rodagon-D (duplication) which might explain a poorer landscape performance?

[Paul2660]

Paul,

Could it be that the sensor's alignment relative to the mount isn't perfect?

Cheers,
Bernard

Bernard

That is possible as there is no way to really know if the camera / sensor are perfectly aligned.  This is something I took for granted with the rm3di and MFD as that system makes it much easier. It's all done manually and is a good bit of the setup time.   However even on my 3rd test where I was very sure of a good alignment there was still more magenta cast towards the left on shifts of 12mm or more.

Paul