Help setting up 1/1600 flash sync

[Chris Valites]

I understand how hyper sync works. The way I explain it to people is it's basically like a scan of the lit scene (fast shutter over the slow strobe). I also know that the faster sync with my system cuts a bit off the tail as well. I had thought that the original poster had not gotten any sync at all.

That's pretty much the exact way I'd explain it as well. I usually substituted Xerox, but I had a lot of younger customers asking "What's a Xerox?" Go figure...

I agree that the original customer's problem has not been fully solved, but without knowing exactly what camera he has, I can't try that out here to see how it works. He might have a camera that doesn't support using leaf shutters alone, or some other problem entirely.

Mainly because you are using the very top of the range Profoto equipment however, in bright outdoor conditions and using the higher power settings on the packs the flash durations could be as low as 1/500s and if you're shooting at 1/1600s then there will be a loss of flash power. Possibly as you have lots of power on tap you have the luxury of just dialing up the packs more to compensate?

That's my guess as well. The faster the flash duration, the less power loss you'll notice in the long run. Consider the following images I created while working at PocketWizard, taken from osciliscope readings of a Ranger RX pack with the A-head vs the S-head:




Both of these readings were done with the exact same pack, therefore they're putting out the same output of power. However, the peak amplitude of the A head is nearly twice as much as the S head because it puts out all that power in close to half the time. The timing is so important with the leaf shutter usage, as the shorter the shutter speed, the less time the camera has to "see" the output of the flash head. Faster flash heads get more of the overall power in frame faster, and reduce the amount of light loss you'll end up with.

[calindustries]

Pull the gear out, put it in a dark room (so that there is no ambient light) and shoot the same power setting on the light at 1/200th, 1/800th, and 1/1600th. You should notice the 1/1600th is significantly darker even though the flash fired at the same power because your pocketwizards weren't able to fire the flash in perfect sync and therefore the camera only saw a fraction of the flash output.

If you see identical exposures out of all three (or even pretty close exposures) please let us know as it would defy everything we know about PocketWizard high-speed sync and could lead to some interesting experimentation/research to see why it's working when it should not.

So I just did that test. Using:
RangerRXAS pack with A head on B channel full power
H4X with Credo 40 back HCD 35-90 ISO 50, f11
Pocket wizard Plus kit

readings from middle of frame are:
1/60=248
1/125=248
1/250=248
1/500=248
1/800=235

It's about the fall off I've expected, not drastic, but I'm a portrait shooter and am somewhat cavalier with adjustments in post when I need to be. Are these the numbers you would expect?

Thanks,
Craig

[Chris Valites]

So I just did that test. Using:
RangerRXAS pack with A head on B channel full power
H4X with Credo 40 back HCD 35-90 ISO 50, f11
Pocket wizard Plus kit

readings from middle of frame are:
1/60=248
1/125=248
1/250=248
1/500=248
1/800=235

It's about the fall off I've expected, not drastic, but I'm a portrait shooter and am somewhat cavalier with adjustments in post when I need to be. Are these the numbers you would expect?

Thanks,
Craig

Hey Craig,

That actually does make sense to me. The Ranger RX AS with the A head has a flash duration of 1/5120th of a second (according to manufacturer specs. Given that your exposure takes longer than that, the reduction from 248 to 235 is likely due to the speed of the leaf shutter blades themselves just barely catching the end of the exposure.

If you were using the S head, you'd likely see a greater fall off because more of the flash duration happens AFTER the shutter blades have finally closed.

[calindustries]

The same test with a converted Acute head on same pack and settings is (The base 1/125 number could be different based on the head not being aimed exactly the same (stand not different, just different head) and a different reflector obviously)

1/60=225
1/125=225
1/250=225
1/500=220
1/800=184

So obviously the Acute head has a longer flash duration and/or a slower trigger delay. I also expected this.

-C

[Chris Valites]

The same test with a converted Acute head on same pack and settings is (The base 1/125 number could be different based on the head not being aimed exactly the same (stand not different, just different head) and a different reflector obviously)

1/60=225
1/125=225
1/250=225
1/500=220
1/800=184

So obviously the Acute head has a longer flash duration and/or a slower trigger delay. I also expected this.

-C

While I don't know what the flash duration of the Acute head is exactly with that pack, that makes sense to me. It'd be interesting to see an S head vs an A head on the same pack, same position. If I had one I'd break it out!

[calindustries]

Either way find them close enough to not worry about using them at fastest LS speed knowing I can compensate in post, or aperture etc, etc. For fun I'll try a hard sync if I can find it. Stay tuned...

[calindustries]

Plus I don't know how much of the acute head is actually still "acute". It's the same flash tube and housing, but I'm not sure how much of the innards were changed when Peter at Flashclinic converted it for me (I wanted to still use the PF shapers I had)

[calindustries]

FWIW I got the same numbers with the hard sync as I did with the old Plus PW kit while using the A head. So do you think that a PW III kit would improve over the hard line sync or am I maxing out what I can do with the H4X/Ranger combo?

-C

[Chris Valites]

FWIW I got the same numbers with the hard sync as I did with the old Plus PW kit while using the A head. So do you think that a PW III kit would improve over the hard line sync or am I maxing out what I can do with the H4X/Ranger combo?

-C

Nothing will beat cabled sync. With your combination, you likely have a fast enough flash that there's not much advantage to the Plus III's FAST mode over the Plus/Plus II kit. If you had a slower flash, or your particular camera body's shutters travelled slower, then that might be different. As I showed in the 2nd post, with slower flashes, FAST mode can make a big difference. It also reminds me of my HyperSync testing days, because every single camera body and camera manufacturer uses a different shutter in their cameras, and some even differ from line to line. Much like how the 5D Mark III and the 1Dx have different speed shutter travel, your H4x might be much faster than a Phase DF+ body. I don't have the equipment here to measure the FP shutters in the bodies, and I've never tried it with leaf shutters themselves, let alone ones in lenses. Needless to say, it's one of those applications where trying it yourself in edge situations is the best, and it sounds like you've gotten your gear pretty well checked out!

For basic "how fast can I go with X back" questions, our blog post still works great. In terms of actual light loss, though, it might be a real bear testing all the possible permutations. There's four factors involved in that: the shutter in the lens, the shutter in the body, the flash duration of the flash themselves, and the power level of the flashes. I'm no mathmetician, but the number of possible permutations of that makes it pretty impossible to have a fully published list, formulae, or anything similar to what you can expect for power loss.

So, another tl;dr summary to end that: To get the least amount of light loss possible, you'll get the best results with leaf lenses vs FP shutters, and the fastest flash duration strobe you can. You will, unfortunately, likely have to test that exact combination of gear yourself for best results.

[calindustries]

Chris,
Just looked at the blog page. One note is that RZ is listed with FP Shutter. RZ is leaf shutter only.

-C

[Steve Hendrix]

Chris,
Just looked at the blog page. One note is that RZ is listed with FP Shutter. RZ is leaf shutter only.

-C

Darn it, discovered we're not perfect again. Thanks for letting us know C. BTW - the very funny thing about this is that the man who put together that post - Zac Henderson - happened to stop by the office today. And I asked him - RZ, focal pane or leaf shutter? And he said leaf shutter. So clearly, he did not have his coffee when he inserted that field. And I was able to give him a very hard time about that! 

https://captureintegration.com/zac-is-off-on-the-adventure-of-a-lifetime-2/


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

[Chris Valites]

Chris,
Just looked at the blog page. One note is that RZ is listed with FP Shutter. RZ is leaf shutter only.

-C

Shoot! I was looking at that page to edit up the PocketWizard side of things, should have gotten a full shakedown. Thanks for letting us know!

[jojo204]

Hey Guys

Wow thanks for all the info and help on this.  What a great community!  

So after reading though and going out and getting 2 PW Plus III and doing a bit more fiddling around and countless combinations.  I found the best way to get to 1/1600 was the CI blog method only loosing about 1/3-4 of a stop in light loss using the fast mode on the PW Plus III.  anything from 1/160 - 1/400 was the same.  Above 1/400 is when it dropped but even all the way up too 1/1600.

I was able to get it to finally go using Plus III on the Ranger and Plus II or FlexTT5 on the DF+ but it was about a full stop difference from 1/320 to 1/1600.  with MiniTT in i couldnt even get it to go past f/320,  Then when I switched it to trigger only it dropped 2 stops from 1/500 to 1/800.  Any other combination like Plus II to Plus II or Plus II to FlexTT(trigger only mode) was all about the same.

Then trying port A only and then B only they trying 2 heads really didnt make to much of a difference with the Plus III fast mode method.  When not using that mode 2 heads and B only got better results but still about a half stop loss from 1/400 to 1/800.

so after all that what have I learned...  Who wants to buy some pocket wizards and elinchrom rangers lol

thanks again for all the input and help.

and now my accumulated Pocket Wizard Collection.  Have they offered an IPO yet haha

[Chris Valites]

Glad to hear you got it working!

The MiniTT1 and FlexTT5 are interesting because they, by default, operate on ControlTL Channels. When used with a compatible system, those radios are great, because they can use TTL, remote power control, HyperSync, and other advanced features. Unfortunately, those features require a compatible camera, because the TTL, HyperSync, and other signals are much more complex (and longer) signals than the Plus IIs "hey, fire!" signal. Canon and Nikon radios can send those complex signals before the shutter opens on compatible cameras, making timing less of an issue.

However, unless you enable "Basic Trigger mode" on both the MiniTT1 and FlexTT5, you'll be using those same ControlTL signals on your DF+. This means you'll be getting all that complex (long) communications sent out at your X-sync trigger, when the shutter is open. Flash sync is the last signal sent out, and after the other signals, is delayed. This helps contribute to your overall light loss. If you weren't using a LS lens, you'd probably find out that you couldn't even sync up to the nominal sync speed of the camera itself; if you use ControlTL defaults on a non-compatible focal plane shutter, you'll end up losing a stop or more of sync speed.

Do you have both S-heads and A-heads? If you do, I'm curious if you saw any difference in performance between the two using two Plus IIIs in FAST mode. I'd assume that the A-head would perform better in terms of less light loss from shutter speed to shutter speed.

[jojo204]

Yeah unfortunately I only have 2 A heads.  Now all this testing was in my office.  hope it carries in real world work lol

[calindustries]

I know this is a curve ball but has anyone done similar testing with the bron move system and their rfs? I've demoed that system with my old 5dmkii but didn't test any LS lens as I didn't have the hassy system at the time. There are a lot if reasons I'd like to switch to this system and move on from the great in its time ranger set up.

[Steve Hendrix]

I know this is a curve ball but has anyone done similar testing with the bron move system and their rfs? I've demoed that system with my old 5dmkii but didn't test any LS lens as I didn't have the hassy system at the time. There are a lot if reasons I'd like to switch to this system and move on from the great in its time ranger set up.

Hi Craig -

The High Sync Speed link that Chris referenced earlier in the thread indicates that RFS-1 will sync at up to 1/500th and RFS-2 will sync at the full 1/1600th (at least with DF/DF+ and Schneider Leaf Shutter lenses).

https://captureintegration.com/definitive-guide-to-medium-format-high-speed-sync/


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

[gazwas]

I know this is a curve ball but has anyone done similar testing with the bron move system and their rfs?

Bron's RFS 2.1 will give you full sync up to 1/1500s. I think its a wonderful trigger and once you get your head around its menu and lack of buttons its very, very easy to use. The battery in them lasts a long time and the transmitter itself in tiny in comparison to pocket wizard/airsync etc which I think is brilliant. The only down side to the RFS 2 system is they are transmitters only until you add a USB power source where they automatically switch to receivers. Not a problem when using RFS 2 packs (Move, Scoro) but if you need to sync a speedlight then you will need an additional USB battery back.

Sync wise, Move will sync with your 1/1600s shutter and experience no power loss up to a max of 425Ws in Speed mode. Above this you will loose flash power, however how much and its effect on exposure will depend on the camera/lens combination.. 600Ws in Speed mode (that is full power in Speed) is 1/1000s t.01.

I think the Bron Move is an amazing pack and comes very highly recommended from an ex Profoto user who didn't like the Pro-B4. The MobiLED head are a work of art also.

[george2787]

I think the Bron Move is an amazing pack and comes very highly recommended from an ex Profoto user who didn't like the Pro-B4. The MobiLED head are a work of art also.

just out of curiosity... what's not to like in the profoto B4? it seems "perfect"

[Manoli]

just out of curiosity... what's not to like in the profoto B4?

Apart from the sticker price, zilch !