Choir practice

[Jim Pascoe]

Not put a picture up here for a while, but this is one I shot yesterday.

Jim

[KirbyKrieger]

Beautifully nicely done   .

Especially like the scale of detail (it is at the level of the most attractive forms, and no more specific — see, for example, the back of the neck of the obscured singer, as well as, of course, the face of the singer in the foreground) and the design of having dark edges on light and light edges on dark.

Suggestions (offered to strengthen — either the picture or your resolve):
 - The forearm as depicted is creepily long.
 - The expression of the seated, blurred man mars the overall presence.  This is only noticed on third look (as it were), but lingers unhappily.
 - I suspect that the meaning of the picture would be better served without the bounding dark of the vertical element picture-left-top.  You seem to be saying something about youth, and light, and possibility.  Formally this is better matched to a composition that is open on at least one side.

[RSL]

I think it's a good piece of selective focus work just as it is. The only way you can avoid problems in the background with selective focus is to use white or black seamless paper behind your subject. With something like this, if you wait for everything back there to be perfect you'll never trip a shutter.

[Jim Pascoe]

Thanks for your comments guys.  For information the man in the background is the choirmaster sat at the piano and there are 22 boys in the room.  I asked if I could switch off the room light so that I could just use the  natural light coming through the windows.  I believe the building is from the Tudor period and the uprights are part of the wooden frame.  The lens is my Voigtlander 25mm on the Panasonic and probably at about f1.2 or so.

As you can imagine the sound was awesome and I did take quite a lot of pictures in about ten minutes.  Apart from switching off the room lights I did not control anything else because I did not want to intrude on what is a professional choir practise session.  I tried to be as discreet as possible.

Jim

[KirbyKrieger]

I think it's a good piece of selective focus work just as it is. The only way you can avoid problems in the background with selective focus is to use white or black seamless paper behind your subject. With something like this, if you wait for everything back there to be perfect you'll never trip a shutter.

I wasn't suggesting avoiding problems, or waiting for perfection, each of which is as silly as a scaring away demons with a straw man.  I was suggesting fixing problems in the recording in order to make a better picture.

I guess I should say that, to me, the picture is what counts.  It is already a complete fiction created mechanically (and, in this case, highly fictionalized by means of stylistic choices).  As a document of a choir practice is has almost no value.  If the value is as a picture, the picture-maker is responsible for making it excellent.

As stated, it's beautifully done.  My suggestions are to make it better, by taking them, or by the picture-maker deciding either, "No, that's not my intent" or "Even though that is my intent, I think it works better this way."

[Jim Pascoe]

I wasn't suggesting avoiding problems, or waiting for perfection, each of which is as silly as a scaring away demons with a straw man.  I was suggesting fixing problems in the recording in order to make a better picture.

I guess I should say that, to me, the picture is what counts.  It is already a complete fiction created mechanically (and, in this case, highly fictionalized by means of stylistic choices).  As a document of a choir practice is has almost no value.  If the value is as a picture, the picture-maker is responsible for making it excellent.

As stated, it's beautifully done.  My suggestions are to make it better, by taking them, or by the picture-maker deciding either, "No, that's not my intent" or "Even though that is my intent, I think it works better this way."

I'm not sure what the sentence "As a document of a choir practice it almost has no value".  Do you mean it has no financial value, or it has no value as a document of the choir practice?  It is one picture amongst hundreds I shoot telling the story of the Choir.  The arm is long and slender, but then the boy is perhaps only ten years old.  I have pictures without the arm, but to me the arm provides a connection to the sheet music they are singing from.

Jim

[KirbyKrieger]

Re: Choirmaster:
One of the results of the out-of-focus rendering is the dark stain around the choirmaster's mouth.  I say "stain" because while the rendering has not overly spread the discerned form of his jaw, it has overly spread the darkness present on it (or picked up something else), so that darkness becomes a surface form: in effect, it has been lifted off the form that created it and is now in the picture plain.  I would correct that.

Re: the building:
The inclusion or exclusion of the detail in question does not in any way change my perception or appreciation for the interior in which the data was recorded.  I accept that the building is impressive.  It is not, however, the subject of the picture.  Because of the highly stylized reproduction, I assume that light itself was not only in part your interest, but was "thematized" — that is to say, was charged with carrying meaning.  Because of this, based on the evidence in the picture, I suggest making decisions based on the light, and not on the setting.

I like the picture   .  I love that you were able to enjoy and photograph the rehearsal.

[Jim Pascoe]

Well Kirby I appreciate that you have only seen one picture from the set, but I can tell you that the building and setting are fundamental to the story of this choir.  I see that your forte perhaps is in still life photography where every detail is under your control.  And of course I could have exerted more control over my images.  But I choose not to.  For me I quite like them 'warts and all'.  I do carry out basic post production, but I rarely spend more than a few minutes on any picture - I don't have the patience!

Here is another picture of the choir I shot in September.  It is staged, and in order to get a fast enough shutter speed in the near-dark conditions I needed to use ISO 3200 and the 85mm lens was at f2.  For this one I probably did spend ten minters in Photoshop because I needed to remove a few distractions.  I have tried to get this picture in previous years but never succeeded in getting a sharp one.

Jim

[Eric Myrvaagnes]

The first shot is truly excellent, IMHO.
I emphatically disagree with Kirby about the length of the boy's arm, which is just right for a kid that age (and reconstructive surgery before taking the picture would not have improved it).

I also disagree about the border on the left, but the photo wouldn't have been much worse without it.

As for the choirmaster's face, I think Kirby is trying too hard to read things into a blurry face. I suspect that adding a bit more of PP blur to the face might take care of that, but it's certainly not necessary. Beautiful, expressive shot!

The other choir shot is nice, too, but not in the same expressive league.

[Jim Pascoe]

Thank you for your input Eric.  Yes, I prefer the first picture - it is exactly the sort of thing I was hoping to get on that morning.  I photograph this choir on a professional basis, but I am also trying to put together my own set of pictures relying on interesting lighting too.  The second picture I would really love if I had not set it up.  Saying that - I only took three pictures in one take, but I did ask the boys to run - something they rarely do in the Cathedral!

Jim

[brandtb]

Jim- The first shot not so great structurally and content-wise...without the narrative...doesn't carry much weight...and darks are way too dark..and there is so much included in the frame, that is not interesting or readable, and that doesn't contribute to a strong graphic image. Backlight effects are interesting but they are not an end in and of themselves. That said, it might work as part of a photo essay or editorial piece.  The staged shot posted later...fantastic...love this.  /B

[Jim Pascoe]

Thanks for your thought Brandt.  I guess I am more a sort of story type of photographer rather than a wow! what a picture type of guy.  I just like what I like and tend not to enjoy dissecting pictures too much.  That said, I am into my third year of judging photo competitions so I do have to look at pictures critically lots of times!

Jim

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

Love the color one!

[RSL]

The advantage of the color shot is that you don't need text to understand what you're seeing. The B&W is subtle and beautiful, but you haven't any idea what's going on unless you read the title.

[Jim Pascoe]

The advantage of the color shot is that you don't need text to understand what you're seeing. The B&W is subtle and beautiful, but you haven't any idea what's going on unless you read the title.

I think maybe you might infer from the fact the boy is reading sheet music might give a clue - but perhaps the image is a bit small to make that out clearly.  But yes, the colour one needs no explaining!

Jim

[stamper]

I don't see any need for criticism of the image? It isn't perfect....nor should it have to be. I find it very likeable and thought provoking. If it provokes positive thoughts then it has succeeded.

[Eric Myrvaagnes]

I hate to disagree with all of LuLa's best experts, but to me the color photo, which is nice, is a "two-second" shot: It takes no more time than that to "get it" and appreciate it, and after that there's not much too it.

The monochrome is a much more powerful image, IMHO. The intense gaze of the boy, and his finger tracing whatever he is reading, evokes a strong sense of deep concentration in his work. The blurry figure is an observer, perhaps a teacher, simply watching what is going on.

I can get all of that without the title and without being able to see the "music" clearly enough to know whether it is indeed music or Hebrew or Sanskrit. This is an image I would spend some time with in a gallery.

Eric

P.S. Stamper nails it!

[RSL]

Looking back at what I wrote I realize I didn't make myself clear. That's an advantage if you're chairwoman of the Fed, but not if you're a critiquer. I agree with Stamper and Eric. The color shot is understandable, but it's photojournalism. The B&W is subtle and beautiful. One is documentation. The other is art.

[luxborealis]

Beautiful work - and yes, the sound must have been amazing. We greatly miss the boys choirs of England!

I agree with Eric and stamper... both are lovely photographs, but the B&W has the added thoughtfulness to it. BTW, try reducing the contrast of the colour and perhaps reducing the saturation. It seems overly lively on screen (albeit that's just what the boys are in the photo!).

[Jim Pascoe]

Many thanks for all of your comments.  I don't very often post images here, partly because I do not have the time and partly because I feel confident enough in what I am doing not to feel the need for critique.  That is not to say I'm arrogant enough to think I cannot improve - far from it, but I think improving ones photography is a personal journey and once you get past the obvious learning curve at the start, then it is just a matter of continually practising.  I have a phrase I often say to myself - 'It is what it is".  This does not mean a picture could not be improved, just that it is also fine as it is.  So I am glad many of you appreciate the first picture on that basis.

Perhaps the problem with this User Critique section is that in truth many of us do not actually want critique - we just want to share our pictures!  Personally I did want to see what you all thought about the picture - to see if the atmosphere was able to overpower any other shortcomings.

The second picture is almost universally liked and only a nit picker would find fault.  It is the sort of picture a non-photographer would instantly be drawn to.  It did take a few years to get a good one like that though!  I like it, but agree with Eric that it is a 'Two minute picture'.  Russ you are very generous with your "art" comment.

I am going to work on a panel of pictures of this choir so perhaps I could share a few more in due course.  They will be like the first picture though, not the second.

Thank you all once again for giving your time to comment, many of you are photographers I greatly respect.