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Author Topic: Epson Native Resolution (360)  (Read 22041 times)

ognita

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Epson Native Resolution (360)
« on: May 26, 2014, 10:53:06 pm »

I have done my share of searching the boards and reading some articles but there in no definitive [practical] answer. I am under the impression that the Epson driver will convert to 360ppi if you send something less than 300ppi file. I always re-size to 360ppi for my regular prints so there's no concern.

But this time, I will be printing larger than my usual and I would like to maintain the integrity of the pixels. I plan not to up-rez but rather, to give it a smaller ppi of 180 to achieve the desired size.

Would the Epson driver convert the 180ppi to 360ppi still?

or is it more like this:
If the ppi is less than 180 - it will convert to 180
If the ppi is more than 180 but less than 360 - it will convert to 360.
But if the ppi is either 180 or 360 exactly - it will remain unconverted.

The answer would dictate the route that I will take in preparing the file for print.

Thank you guys!

Mark D Segal

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Re: Epson Native Resolution (360)
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2014, 11:08:12 pm »

What model Epson printer are you using? On some of the more recent ones there is choice of "360 or 720 native resolution". My understanding is that the driver will up/down res on-the-fly as the case may be to one of the two native resolutions (where you have the choice). As a result, you may bring the file to 360/720 for printing purposes using your image editing software, or you can send whatever PPI you want to the Epson driver and let it handle the conversion. This choice boils down to which approach delivers better quality output, something you should judge for yourself by testing both approaches and observing whether you see any appreciable difference.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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ognita

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Re: Epson Native Resolution (360)
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2014, 11:35:09 pm »

Thank you for your reply, Mark.
I use a 3880 but will a 7900 for the bigger prints.

I think the 720ppi would not be such a concern since my camera does not produce as much pixels to begin with, and is closer to 360.
That's the thing if I lower down the ppi to hit the required size, say 180 Exactly. Would the driver still re-sample to 360?

Mark D Segal

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Re: Epson Native Resolution (360)
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2014, 11:44:31 pm »

I believe so.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Schewe

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Re: Epson Native Resolution (360)
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2014, 12:14:45 am »

Would the Epson driver convert the 180ppi to 360ppi still?

Well, you image data does get transformed to 360ppi but it's not by the print driver, it's the OS level print pipeline that does it...ad it does it with a relatively poor bilinear algorithm. So, if you want the optimal results, you should consider upsampling the image data using a better algorithm in your image app or output app. Photoshop CC has a new and improved upsampling using Preserve Details with is a considerable improvement over bilinear and Lightroom and Qimage will also do a better job that the print pipeline. You can test this yourself, but doing your own upsampling will do a better job particularly for high frequency detailed images.

P.S. The above largely applies to glossy media. Media like canvas or rough watercolor paper may not show any substantial benefits.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Epson Native Resolution (360)
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2014, 12:31:55 am »

Jeff - is the "OS print pipeline" not the software installed as part of the Epson driver? (I wasn't aware that operating systems have independent print pipelines that do up-rezzing - but that doesn't mean they don't of course!)
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Schewe

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Re: Epson Native Resolution (360)
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2014, 01:02:09 am »

The print driver reports it's "resolution" to the OS level print pipeline...the application sends the image data to the print driver via the print pipeline. As far as I can determine, it's the print pipeline that accepts the image data from the app and passes it to the print driver. Part of that "passing" are potential color and resolution transforms...(depending on the OS and the way in which the app or driver handles color).

All I know for a fact is that Epson tech told me that the print driver doesn't do any resolution changes and Adobe engineers have confirmed that the apps don't do any resolution changes (unless you specifically instruct it to), so that leaves the OS level print pipeline.

In the case of Epson that reported resolution will be either 360 or 720 (on pro printers with Finest Detail checked). On Canon or HP that reported resolution will be either 300 or 600 depending on the driver settings.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Epson Native Resolution (360)
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2014, 01:14:55 am »

OK yes, I remember now- not the first time you have mentioned this advice from the Epson tech. I'm not trying to be facetious, but I wonder whether he is correct about that, because it seems strange that Epson would manufacture a printhead and driver designed to handle data at a given parameter for the PPI and then not have its own algorithm for implementing it. Do you think corroboration would be useful/helpful?
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Schewe

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Re: Epson Native Resolution (360)
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2014, 01:25:47 am »

Do you think corroboration would be useful/helpful?

Neither Apple nor MSFT are offering any insight...(and yes, I do believe the Epson and Adobe engineers–we've gone back and forth on this and we're all "pretty sure" it's the OS level pipeline that's altering the resolution).

And through testing we're pretty sure that the resampling is a fast (but not very good) bilinear resampling–which can be improved by using apps to resample.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2014, 01:27:20 am by Schewe »
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Epson Native Resolution (360)
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2014, 01:29:16 am »

Thanks Jeff, that's helpful.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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ognita

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Re: Epson Native Resolution (360)
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2014, 02:51:54 am »

Thanks guys!

That basically answers my question. For optimal control, I need to up-sample to 360ppi and let go of the idea of placing lower ppi (180) to get my desired print size without interpolation.
I'm going to use Perfect Resize for this (any good?) Man! I was somehow praying that I misunderstood the ppi conversion thing, as I was hoping to use the native pixels only. Oh well...

Thanks again guys!

Manoli

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Re: Epson Native Resolution (360)
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2014, 03:06:31 am »

Well, you image data does get transformed to 360ppi but it's not by the print driver, it's the OS level print pipeline that does it...ad it does it with a relatively poor bilinear algorithm.

On OSX 10.9 (Mavericks) printing to an Epson3800 there is no longer the 360 /720 dpi option in the print driver - it's greyed out (depending on your choice of paper). For any of the Photo papers - gloss, semi-gloss, luster - it's now SuperFine 1440 dpi or SuperPhoto 2880 dpi only.

Jeff refers to a resampling of the image data in ppi but I'm not sure how that is now handled/converted to the dpi options of the Epson driver.



« Last Edit: May 27, 2014, 03:25:10 am by Manoli »
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Epson Native Resolution (360)
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2014, 03:21:32 am »

Thanks guys!

That basically answers my question. For optimal control, I need to up-sample to 360ppi and let go of the idea of placing lower ppi (180) to get my desired print size without interpolation.

Hi,

Indeed, upsampling to 360 or 720 PPI always allows better image quality. It also allows to do output sharpening at the final / native printer resolution, instead of sharpening and then upsampling to a blur again. That's why upsampling to 720 PPI is preferred when your image data exceeds 360 PPI, rather than downsampling. Anyway, why throw away data that you already captured?

Quote
I'm going to use Perfect Resize for this (any good?)

Yes, recent versions will do a decent up-sampling, with post resampling sharpening options that can enhance sharp edges.

Cheers,
Bart
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Epson Native Resolution (360)
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2014, 03:51:31 am »

Thanks guys!

That basically answers my question. For optimal control, I need to up-sample to 360ppi and let go of the idea of placing lower ppi (180) to get my desired print size without interpolation.
I'm going to use Perfect Resize for this (any good?) Man! I was somehow praying that I misunderstood the ppi conversion thing, as I was hoping to use the native pixels only. Oh well...

Thanks again guys!

You may wish to consider printing from Lightroom - it's brilliant.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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howardm

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Re: Epson Native Resolution (360)
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2014, 07:50:25 am »

I dont recall the Epson 3800 driver *ever* giving you a 360/720 choice.  It's always been 1440/2880 IIRC

Mark D Segal

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Re: Epson Native Resolution (360)
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2014, 08:06:47 am »

I dont recall the Epson 3800 driver *ever* giving you a 360/720 choice.  It's always been 1440/2880 IIRC

I didn't say the Epson 3800 offers 360/720. Furthermore the 360 or 720 refers to pixels per inch of image resolution. The 1440/2880 is another metric - dots per inch printed.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Epson Native Resolution (360)
« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2014, 08:24:09 am »

I dont recall the Epson 3800 driver *ever* giving you a 360/720 choice.  It's always been 1440/2880 IIRC

Hi Howard,

One needs to enable the 'Finest Detail' option in the printer driver by checking the box.
Without that, the printer will only print in 360 PPI (=pixels not dots!) mode.
The dots option refers to the color dithering (1200/2800 dots) pattern used.

Cheers,
Bart
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Manoli

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Re: Epson Native Resolution (360)
« Reply #17 on: May 27, 2014, 08:39:17 am »

I didn't say the Epson 3800 offers 360/720. Furthermore the 360 or 720 refers to pixels per inch of image resolution. The 1440/2880 is another metric - dots per inch printed.

No, but I referenced it in my post above. The 360/720 you say refers to pixels per inch , but I thought it referred to dithering. The driver clearly lists both 360 and 720 as dpi, as it does for the 1440/2880 metric.

Also, if one selects, for example, 'Enhanced Matte Paper' then there is the additional option of 720dpi. 360 dpi doesn't appear until you get down to 'Photo Quality Inkjet Paper' The four options are described as Normal(360) - Fine(720) - SuperFine(1440) and SuperPhoto(2880).

So if I understand Bart's post the 720ppi is engaged on the Epson printers ONLY by checking the Finest Detail box otherwise it's 360ppi.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2014, 08:46:41 am by Manoli »
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Epson Native Resolution (360)
« Reply #18 on: May 27, 2014, 08:44:56 am »

No, but I referenced it in my post above. The 360/720 you say refers to pixels per inch , but I thought it referred to dithering. The driver clearly lists both 360 and 720 as dpi, as it does for the 1440/2880 metric. So what is the difference ?

Also, if one selects, for example, 'Enhanced Matte Paper' then there is the additional option of 720dpi. 360 dpi doesn't appear until you get down to 'Photo Quality Inkjet Paper' The four options are described as Normal(360) - Fine(720) - SuperFine(1440) and SuperPhoto(2880).

So if I understand Bart's post the 720ppi is engaged on the Epson printers ONLY by checking the Finest Detail box otherwise it's 360ppi.


The 360/720 business is pixels per inch of image resolution regardless of what the nomenclature in the driver says. The dithering happens in the algorithms for laying printer dots of the colour mixtures to paper and that is where the range of 1440-2880 dots per inch comes in. Have a look at Michael Reichmann's very useful article on this website explaining resolution (quite some years ago).
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Epson Native Resolution (360)
« Reply #19 on: May 27, 2014, 08:57:12 am »

So if I understand Bart's post the 720ppi is engaged on the Epson printers ONLY by checking the Finest Detail box otherwise it's 360ppi.

Correctly understood. No amount of waving magic wands or alignment of the planets will achieve 720 PPI, unless/until the 'Finest detail' checkbox is set.

Cheers,
Bart
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