Canvas seeds and other manufacturer’s defects

[Justan]

I’m in a dispute with a canvas vendor. I bought a 44” roll of canvas and have had to toss 3 large works due to what appears to be seeds in the canvas. The manufacturer claims this is normal and nothing can be done.

I also noted that the process of putting the canvas on the roll results in the last ~5’ or so being ruined and that anyone who buys the canvas has to eat the cost of this part of the roll. They claimed they “usually add a few extra feet to the rolls of canvas to make up for the part that gets indented.” Note the key word is “usually” meaning there is no guarantee of this.

Add up the tossed works due to the canvas seeds and the tossed last 5’ or so and it is a lot of wasted media.

They offered me a 10% discount on my next purchase, which does not seen reasonable given that I’ve tossed about 20’ from the current roll.

I have only tried canvas from a few vendors. Is this kind of thing common for all canvas?

[jferrari]

Try a cotton/poly blend instead of 100% cotton. That will reduce the possibility of seeds yet still retain a pleasant canvas look.
You could also pay out the length of the print and inspect the canvas for defects prior to committing to print. PITA I know but could save work from being tossed into the scrap pile.
Another thing that I do is stock up small work that is less affected by the creases at the end of the roll. Otherwise it's like you said - wasted. HTH     - Jim

[Justan]

Thank you for the reply and suggestions. Do you think that 3 seeds or more in a 44” roll is typical?

[darlingm]

My biggest frustration in this business is the common hands-off support for issues with canvas.

I'll mention Breathing Color came up with a good idea to solve the last 5' of canvas problem.  They put a small amount of microfoam around the cardboard tube, which really helps prevent harm to the inner canvas.  They've been doing this for a little while, and I can't believe everyone else hasn't copied it yet.

[Justan]

^I remember reading about the solution BC provided for the inner part of the canvas. You’d think others would do the same since it’s a common problem. The logical reason others don’t do is because either it costs them less to not do this or that not enough have complained about the practice.

But my main question is: How many cotton seeds do you see on average in a roll of canvas?

[bill t.]

^I usually get a number of seeds varying between none and way-too-many.  It runs run in cycles, The canvas manufacturers buy the substrate by the huge lot, and some lots are cleaner than others.  That also explains occasional sudden variations in texture between orders.

Yes it's possible to roll off canvas and inspect, but for really long lengths there is a very big possibility that during that process one will pick up dust.  The worst effect is that un-rolling generates a certain amount of static which causes dust already on the roll-out surface to adhere to the BACK of the canvas, where it remains unseen but then transfers from the back to the front during re-rolling.  Not such a problem for 24 x 36's, but an almost insurmountable problem for the 6 to 8 foot long prints.  Yes it's true: my printing space does not meet cleanroom standards.

My present solution is to use fine art papers like Pura Velvet that can kinda-sorta "pass for canvas" because of their texture.  Some of them like the two Pura variations and the Epson Hot&Cold Press variants also take canvas coatings very nicely, but some don't.  Pura's the best in the coating department.  The only real difficulty is that coating pulls down the tonal values of the fine art papers much more than with canvas, you've got to make special after-coating profiles for those papers, because un-coated profiles will surely lead to the dreaded "too-dark" syndrome.

Another less vexing issue is that it's more difficult to glue down the fine art papers on Gator, the edges tend to curl up.  Use lotsa glue, and be persistent.  The result is very nice and I when I compare older canvas-based pieces to newer Pura ones, I definitely prefer the coated Pura look.

Fine art papers from rolls have a curl issue.  As the prints come out of the printer I tape them down on temporary coating-support panels, which are laid flat on a table in front of the printer.  After coating they stay relatively flat.  I roll them out on the gluey Gator from being wound on a tube, just like with canvas.  The Pura and Epson papers have bare surfaces that are pretty rugged right after printing, you can immediately de-curl them if you wish.

[Justan]

Thank you for the reply, Bill.

I can certainly appreciate that there will be quality variations. I would hope that the customer support element of the vendor I usually buy from would do a better job. That is part of the issue.

The problem with inspection is not only as you noted, but in addition, when producing works that can be 7’ long, there is not much I can do short of unrolling the whole thing and trying to work around any defects. It is not as if I can make a custom order shorter. In the end, the defects still cause a lot of wasted media. Finding them may cut down on wasted ink or just change the nature of the problem.

I’m miffed that after writing the vendor and telling them that I lost nearly half a roll due to defects, that they want me to ship the defects back to them so they can inspect and approve. In the meantime then they’ll offer me 10% off the next roll. That is more of an elbow to the eye than good customer service, IMO.

I called HP who makes a quality canvas media to see what they consider normal for cotton seeds, and they don’t have a direct answer, or any answer. HP does not offer media support! They gave me the number of a couple of their support companies. I called them and, !surprise! They don’t have an answer either.

I called Staples to ask what their return would be in the event I was to buy canvas from them. The Staples rep said” “Just bring it back and we’ll refund.”  So part of the solution is where I buy from. Staples has quite a variety –Epson, Cannon, HP, Maiclee, TST, even some Cannon by Hahnemuhle. The other part of the solution here would be to find if there are any vendors who produce a more consistently seedless product.

BTW, I’m not ready to jump ship on canvas just yet…

[dgberg]

Have had no problems with Breathing Color or Lexjet.
BC also has a foam wrapping over the core which elimanites the creases.

[jferrari]

Thank you for the reply and suggestions. Do you think that 3 seeds or more in a 44” roll is typical?

Unfortunately, yes. When I was using 100% cotton (Epson, Lexjet, etc.) I would often see three or more defects (seeds, bumps, creases, etc.) per roll. Much less with the poly blend product.

[bill t.]

I tried a first-batch roll of Lexjet Production Canvas, which is 100% polyester.  There were no defects in the approximately 20 feet I printed.

The good news: Polyester trees have such tiny seeds you can't even see them.  The prints look great in all their OBA glory, very similar to Sunset Select, probably the same emulsion.  Comes in 60 foot rolls, which IMHO is a huge time and hassle saver.  Did I say very cheap?  BTW kudos to Epson for those 50 foot Hot & Cold Press rolls.

The bad news: exceedingly regular weave pattern that speaks of its machine origins.  Very thin, maybe 15 mils versus the 20mils for most common canvases.  And too transparent to mount on black Gator without highlights going grey.  If stretched you might be able to sense strong wall colors through un-backed prints.  In fact, mounting on a white surface may be almost necessary.  And white Gator is a PITA.

edit: You might be able to buy some good canvases through Amazon, which impose a very strict and buyer-friendly return policy on all their vendors.

[TSJ1927]

Unfortunately, yes. When I was using 100% cotton (Epson, Lexjet, etc.) I would often see three or more defects (seeds, bumps, creases, etc.) per roll. Much less with the poly blend product.

I don't believe Lexjet has a "lexjet brand" 100% cotton canvas.  And not all of their poly/cotton canvas have the micro thin foam coatings.

[Mike Guilbault]

It's a selling feature!  I tell my clients that this proves it's 100% cotton... and a much more organic product than that cold, un-contaminated plastic sh*%.  If a cotton seed appears, I charge extra because this print is now unique, one of a kind even if it isn't a limited edition! 

Just kidding... sorta... but I really have had only one canvas 'ruined' by a spec of something with Breathing Color Lyve.  It's my display print and I point it out to customers explaining the possibility of seeds and such in canvas and most of them are not concerned.  I think we fret about it more than the customers do.

[bill t.]

Even though they are undeniably organic, those cotton seeds have a way of revealing themselves in the worst possible places, especially favoring smooth blue skies or the centers of setting Sun discs.  You put one of those canvases up, and if the defect is noticeable enough it shuts down the continuity of sales for that image.  Best to save those types of canvases for February garage sales.

I got so much bad canvas this last fall!  Varicose vein weave errors, seeds, areas that were too thick for the highest head height, lumps of congealed gesso, you name it.  Maybe 20% of the big prints I made in October through December had some sort of defect.  Huge waste of time!  I've got a huge pile of rolled up canvas labeled "DEFECT" over in the corner.  Something's wrong with me because I can't throw them away.

Anyway, good riddance!  It's varnished art papers for me, from now on.  Have not seen a single defect in 6 rolls of Pura, and 3 of Epson Hot Press Bright.  It's uncanny.

[Paul2660]

This is not a plug for Breathing Color, as they have their own set of issues. 

However I have never seen a seed in any of their high end canvas, Lyve or Chromata White Matte and Crystalline Glossy.  I have run off a few thousands of feet of all of them in prints, not as much as Bill or Dan.    If you go with the cheaper canvas, you can expect to find the seeds. 

I will say that I have found weave issues in Breathing Color Canvas.  Which often times are enough to ruin the print as the on weave runner is so much more pronounced than the rest of the canvas.  For me it always tends to be in the sky.  This is true with all the BC brands I have mentioned.  You never know when one might show up. 

BC does use the roll wrap, not sure why everyone else doesn't follow suit on this as it does protect the last 5 feet.  You may see slight impressions, but they won't show on a GW.  If you are mounting to gator or other substrate, you won't see these impressions anyway, but you might on a GW. 

Lexjet's Sunset glossy will at times have seeds, but not a lot.  Lexjet doesn't make their canvas, so they are always looking for a cheaper source, that's the busines these days.  BC still has a mill and runs their own for now.  Lexjet sunset matte has always been a good canvas for me, and the last rolls of 24 inch I purchased were on 3" tubes, but they don't use the tube wraps and you do see the impressions.

Paul

[Justan]

Thanks all for the comments!

I’m replying to all in one post …

Have had no problems with Breathing Color or Lexjet.
BC also has a foam wrapping over the core which elimanites the creases.

May try BC. I have had problems with Lexjet. I do like the idea of foam wrapping for the core. It is suggestive of a better made product.

Unfortunately, yes. When I was using 100% cotton (Epson, Lexjet, etc.) I would often see three or more defects (seeds, bumps, creases, etc.) per roll. Much less with the poly blend product.

How about seeds in particular? Have not tried any of the cotton poly blends or just poly based. Oops! I just checked and according to their web site, Lexjet Sunset Select Matte canvas is a cotton poly blend.

The bright-white, matte-coated surface of this poly/cotton blend canvas

From: http://www.lexjet.com/i-12509-LexJet-Sunset-Select-Matte-Canvas-24in-x-40ft-SSMC2440.aspx

…and has seeds in every roll I’ve bought (~ 20 of them). I don’t have a problem with occasional bumps and even note on custom orders that canvas is an imperfect surface.

The bad news: exceedingly regular weave pattern that speaks of its machine origins.  Very thin, maybe 15 mils versus the 20mils for most common canvases.

Is this typical of all poly based canvas or just this one?

And white Gator is a PITA.

Why did you write that?

I don't believe Lexjet has a "lexjet brand" 100% cotton canvas.  And not all of their poly/cotton canvas have the micro thin foam coatings.

Thanks for that! I thought Sunset Select was 100% cotton until I read your comment but I checked (noted above) and found out i was mistaken. That should make for even less reason to have seeds....

It's a selling feature!  I tell my clients that this proves it's 100% cotton... and a much more organic product than that cold, un-contaminated plastic sh*%.  If a cotton seed appears, I charge extra because this print is now unique, one of a kind even if it isn't a limited edition!  …  I think we fret about it more than the customers do.

I tip my hat to you for making a bad thing good. I’m sure there have been occasions I’ve not seen a seed in a finished work but when they are obvious, they are….

I agree that the artist frets more than the customer but do not agree that the customer would not be concerned with a black spot in an obvious place.

I got so much bad canvas this last fall!  Varicose vein weave errors, seeds, areas that were too thick for the highest head height, lumps of congealed gesso, you name it.  Maybe 20% of the big prints I made in October through December had some sort of defect.  Huge waste of time! 

And ink. Ouch! I average 1 defective print per roll due to manufacturing purposes, and that stinks.

I've got a huge pile of rolled up canvas labeled "DEFECT" over in the corner.  Something's wrong with me because I can't throw them away.

Heh, I do that too! I keep moving the pile around. Perhaps that’s my way of having them circle the proverbial drain…

If you go with the cheaper canvas, you can expect to find the seeds.

This may be the nail on the head, so to speak. Not that it should be permissible at any price, but would be the rationalization a manufacturer uses to justify crap.

Lexjet's Sunset glossy will at times have seeds, but not a lot.

Haven’t used their glossy but the expression “a teaspoon of sewage can ruin a 50 gallon barrel of wine” comes to mind. In my experience they have seeds in every roll of matte canvas.

[Landscapes]

I have a bit of frustration as well.  I'm using Epson Exhibition Canvas Matte exclusively.  I find the prices to be quite good and although I mail order it in, I can get it locally if I run out and need some in a hurry.  But seeds are a problem, and they show up as bill said in the worst place, a light blue gradient sky.  I have gotten good with minor touchups with acrylic paint, but the lighter areas are much harder than the darker ones.  The running coating can sometimes be a problem too, which forms a blob on the canvas, and of course it happens in the sky.  I'm sure it happens in other areas as well but you don't see these.

My biggest issue with my last roll was actually a bit of dirt, almost as if the canvas was dirty.  With dark areas the ink would cover it, but of course, blue gradient sky, I can see it.  Fortunately I am just printing on 24 inch rolls, but if I was working with 44 inches, it would hurt twice as much.

[bill t.]

^I wrote that white Gator is a PITA because the slightly thicker and more brittle surface veneer (compared to black Gator) generates more dust and annoying little fractured pieces when cut, even for those of us who are Samurai of the Utility Knife.  It's also a little harder to cut.  When you roll glue out on black Gator, it's very easy to see where and how much you have applied.  With white Gator, you are constantly bobbing up and down to catch light reflections to get the same information.  White Gator is optimized to accept direct silkscreen and inkjet printing, maybe that's why it's the way it is.

To K P: as a last resort to fix those sky-seeds, you can dab at them with one of the white or grey gel markers you can buy at the art supply stores.  Do it before coating, and go easy.  Cover the seed with delicate, transparent gel until it grays out to a little bit lighter than you want, because the coatings will darken it slightly.  May or may not save the day, but in some cases it will knock the degree of horribleness down a few notches.

[Landscapes]

To K P: as a last resort to fix those sky-seeds, you can dab at them with one of the white or grey gel markers you can buy at the art supply stores.  Do it before coating, and go easy.  Cover the seed with delicate, transparent gel until it grays out to a little bit lighter than you want, because the coatings will darken it slightly.  May or may not save the day, but in some cases it will knock the degree of horribleness down a few notches.

Thanks bill.  I actually do my touchups after coating 1 or 2 times.  This is so that i can wipe it off and start again if it doesn't look right, especially if I am color matching with acrylic.  Its amazing how sensitive our eyes are to gradients.  I have also discovered that sometimes I am way pickier than I need to be.  Many customers might not even notice what I notice, and as another poster said up above, saying its a natural byproduct of processing cotton can hopefully sometimes win the day.

[bill t.]

Are seeds the dead pixels of canvas prints?

We should consider how we feel about dead pixels, because that's how buyers probably feel about seeds.  I can get used to dead pixels, and don't even see them most of the time, but I would be hesitant to buy a monitor that I knew had some.

[BrianWJH]

It's interesting to compare the quality of the cotton input materials for inkjet canvas and cotton based fine art inkjet paper.

The inkjet paper having no seed impurities and the canvas often containing seed trash, is this a historical result of the base manufacturing mills using lower grade cotton and possibly also as a result of the lower quality demands of the original users of the canvas products i.e. artists using oil or acrylic paints?

It seems none of the manufacturing mills are able to raise the quality of the input cotton to produce seedless product for inkjet printing, you generally don't see seed trash in cotton based fabric products, something that end use manufacturers would immediately reject.

Also pricing difference between fine art cotton based paper and inkjet canvas is small so why can't manufacturers raise the quality?

Brian.