Not Starting from Scratch with a raw file

[wofsy]

Once in a while. I would like to start processing a raw file from the corresponding jpeg file that is created in the camera. So rather than passing through the raw converter into Photoshop, the idea would be to have a preset or other tool that converts the file automatically to look exactly like the camera jpeg. Is there a way to do this?

[digitaldog]

With the manufacturer's raw converter, that's supposed to be possible (but I don't know how close). With Adobe raw converters, there may be a DNG camera profile that can mimic this closer too. Or you could roll your own. I don't know what or why the JPEG the camera builds from raw, using it's proprietary processing is better or closer to anything you hope to gain but if you want to start that way, you should be able to get "close".

[hjulenissen]

Once in a while. I would like to start processing a raw file from the corresponding jpeg file that is created in the camera. So rather than passing through the raw converter into Photoshop, the idea would be to have a preset or other tool that converts the file automatically to look exactly like the camera jpeg. Is there a way to do this?

I believe that Canons DPP will do this if you are a Canon user.

Other than that, Lightroom can be used to make a pretty decent set of "standard" presets. Remember that there is not only one possible JPEG generated from your camera, it depends on the camera style settings.

-h

[Some Guy]

I agree that the manufacturers RAW converter will probably get you closer than Adobe editing software overall since their own software uses the built-in camera settings as well.  Canon's DPP or Nikon's ViewNX2 or CaptureNX2 probably will work best overall.

I think Qimage Ulitmate will also print a direct RAW image too from most cameras, but probably reads it without the camera's settings applied.  Might be the closest to a RAW print maybe short of the Adobe DNG Converter.

SG

[digitaldog]

A bit OT but a good read is this piece which suggests strongly that rendering the image is a key aspect of photography. JPEG=Polaroid/Chrome? Raw=neg/developing?

http://wwwimages.adobe.com/www.adobe.com/products/photoshop/family/prophotographer/pdfs/pscs3_renderprint.pdf

[mouse]

A bit OT but a good read is this piece which suggests strongly that rendering the image is a key aspect of photography. JPEG=Polaroid/Chrome? Raw=neg/developing?

http://wwwimages.adobe.com/www.adobe.com/products/photoshop/family/prophotographer/pdfs/pscs3_renderprint.pdf

Andrew,
Link not working.

[digitaldog]

Andrew,
Link not working.

Darn, they moved it somewhere. Anyway, try this:

http://www.lumita.com/site_media/work/whitepapers/files/pscs3_rendering_image.pdf

[StoneNYC]

If you import BOTH files to Lightroom it will take preference of the profile of the JPEG I believe then you can export "with changes" to PS... If you use Lightroom as your catalog this should work for you I believe.

[Bryan Conner]

If you import BOTH files to Lightroom it will take preference of the profile of the JPEG I believe then you can export "with changes" to PS... If you use Lightroom as your catalog this should work for you I believe.

Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are saying, but if I set my Canon 7d to shoot raw+jpeg and then set the picture styles to create a monochrome image, and import both the raw and the jpeg into Lightroom 5.3, only the jpeg is monochrome.  The raw file is displayed using the default settings that I have instructed Lightroom to apply to my raw files.  I can not find a setting to instruct Lightroom to honor the in camera settings.  I also tried making other adjustments in camera like decreased saturation, sharpening etc and only the jpeg reflects these changes...not the raw in Lightroom.

[StoneNYC]

Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are saying, but if I set my Canon 7d to shoot raw+jpeg and then set the picture styles to create a monochrome image, and import both the raw and the jpeg into Lightroom 5.3, only the jpeg is monochrome.  The raw file is displayed using the default settings that I have instructed Lightroom to apply to my raw files.  I can not find a setting to instruct Lightroom to honor the in camera settings.  I also tried making other adjustments in camera like decreased saturation, sharpening etc and only the jpeg reflects these changes...not the raw in Lightroom.

Hmm if you hit the "i" key for "info" when the display info shows in the left corner, does it say RAW+JPEG?

I believe it's under settings, file handling, look for something like that, and I believe there's an option to instructed to do so, but I could be wrong and I won't be home for a little while to check, does anyone else know?

[Redcrown]

A point of clarification...

The Adobe "camera" profiles are NOT made to emulate the in-camera jpegs. Instead, they are made to emulate the results of the camera maker's own raw processing software (Canon's DPP for example).

Of course, the camera maker's raw processing software is made to emulate their in-camera jpegs. So, that means Adobe's profiles are an emulation of an emulation. It should not be a surprise that this process yields less than perfect results. Imagine two different language experts translating a book from English to French and then back to English.

Shoot a RAW+jpeg image with a Canon camera set to "Portait" mode. Process one version of the raw with Canon's DPP. Process aonther version with Adobe ACR using the "Camera Portrait" profile. Load the in-camera jpeg and the 2 processed raw images as separate layers in Photoshop and compare. Compare them visually and measure the statistical differences using the StdDev values in the Histogram pallet.

That exercise will demonstrate the inherent error in the process.

The best way to emulate the in-camera jpeg with ACR/Photoshop is to build your own custom profiles (or presets, or adjustment layers). For example, shoot a colorchecker chart in RAW+jpeg. Load the jpeg in ACR, and use the colorpicker to measure and record values for each of the grayscale patches and each of the primary color patches (RGB+CMY).

Then open the raw in ACR. First, select a Adobe camera profile that matches the in-camera jpeg setting you used (Landscape, Portrait, Neutral, etc.). Next, build a tone curve to force all the grayscale patch values to the same values measured on the jpeg. Next, use the color adjustments in ACR to force the primary color patch values to the corresponding jpeg values.

This is a tedious and difficult exercise, but quite educational. It also demonstrates that it's probably not worth the effort.

[Simon Garrett]

A point of clarification...

The Adobe "camera" profiles are NOT made to emulate the in-camera jpegs. Instead, they are made to emulate the results of the camera maker's own raw processing software (Canon's DPP for example).

Of course, the camera maker's raw processing software is made to emulate their in-camera jpegs. So, that means Adobe's profiles are an emulation of an emulation. It should not be a surprise that this process yields less than perfect results. Imagine two different language experts translating a book from English to French and then back to English.

I don't think that's quite right for Nikon - perhaps it is for Canon.

With Nikon, as far as I can tell, neither the in-camera jpeg nor the Nikon raw conversion is the "original" which the other is trying to emulate.  Both are creating Nikon's idea of the rendering of the raw data, using the particular user settings on the camera. 

Thus you can't say that you are closer to the original by starting with either Nikon in-camera jpeg or Nikon-rendered raw.  And of course neither is the one, true, "right" rendering of the raw data; they are both just the Nikon rendering. 

[Steve House]

Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are saying, but if I set my Canon 7d to shoot raw+jpeg and then set the picture styles to create a monochrome image, and import both the raw and the jpeg into Lightroom 5.3, only the jpeg is monochrome.  The raw file is displayed using the default settings that I have instructed Lightroom to apply to my raw files.  I can not find a setting to instruct Lightroom to honor the in camera settings.  I also tried making other adjustments in camera like decreased saturation, sharpening etc and only the jpeg reflects these changes...not the raw in Lightroom.

Raw means just what it says ... the file is the data as it comes off of the sensor prior to any in-camera processing.  Lightroom simply has no way of knowing what the camera did in the process of converting the data to JPG after the sensor was read as that information is not something recorded in the raw file's metadata.  Similarly the JPG from the camera doesn't record how it was changed in its making, only the final result - there is no 'history' to be read so as to be applied by another program.

[Bryan Conner]

Raw means just what it says ... the file is the data as it comes off of the sensor prior to any in-camera processing.  Lightroom simply has no way of knowing what the camera did in the process of converting the data to JPG after the sensor was read as that information is not something recorded in the raw file's metadata.  Similarly the JPG from the camera doesn't record how it was changed in its making, only the final result - there is no 'history' to be read so as to be applied by another program.

You are correct.  I was responding to StoneNYC who had stated that Lightroom could read and use the info for in camera processing in the raw file's meta data.  I was pointing out that what he stated does not work for me in Lightroom 5.3 (nor has it ever worked) with my Canon raw files. 

[StoneNYC]

You are correct.  I was responding to StoneNYC who had stated that Lightroom could read and use the info for in camera processing in the raw file's meta data.  I was pointing out that what he stated does not work for me in Lightroom 5.3 (nor has it ever worked) with my Canon raw files.

I believe I said with the JPEG information, not the RAW information, by importing both files, light room will read those two files as the same image but up by the JPEG changes to the image, this again I haven't tested but I thought was how it worked and the reason for excepting dual file formats like that, I am heading home now and I'm just going to test it myself

[Simon Garrett]

...by importing both files, light room will read those two files as the same image but up by the JPEG changes to the image, ...

I don't know what you mean by that!

My observation is that, with raw+jpeg, unless you select the preference option "Treat JPEG files next to raw files as separate photos", the jpeg is effectively ignored. 

[hjulenissen]

Raw means just what it says ... the file is the data as it comes off of the sensor prior to any in-camera processing.  Lightroom simply has no way of knowing what the camera did in the process of converting the data to JPG after the sensor was read as that information is not something recorded in the raw file's metadata.  Similarly the JPG from the camera doesn't record how it was changed in its making, only the final result - there is no 'history' to be read so as to be applied by another program.

I believe that this is wrong. The raw file contains sufficient meta-data for Canon themselves to "regenerate" the JPEG looks in their raw developer.

The issue seems to be parsing and interpreting the meta-data. "Sharpness +2" might mean something meaningful in Canons cross-platform raw developer, but might not (easily) translate to something meaningful for the ACR pipeline.

-h

[Simon Garrett]

Raw means just what it says ... the file is the data as it comes off of the sensor prior to any in-camera processing.  Lightroom simply has no way of knowing what the camera did in the process of converting the data to JPG after the sensor was read as that information is not something recorded in the raw file's metadata.  Similarly the JPG from the camera doesn't record how it was changed in its making, only the final result - there is no 'history' to be read so as to be applied by another program.

I believe that this is wrong. The raw file contains sufficient meta-data for Canon themselves to "regenerate" the JPEG looks in their raw developer.

The issue seems to be parsing and interpreting the meta-data. "Sharpness +2" might mean something meaningful in Canons cross-platform raw developer, but might not (easily) translate to something meaningful for the ACR pipeline.

-h

Same with NIkon.  The raw file contains many of the camera settings.  Quite a few are in an open form - lens data, exposure data, normal EXIF stuff - but Nikon-specific settings - picture controls, ADL and so on - are in proprietary Nikon metadata that only Nikon software reads. 

Nikon software (ViewNX, Capture NX) reads the Nikon proprietary medata and by default applies the same effects on the raw in the raw processor as the in-camera jpeg processor does.  Hence the image rendered by Nikon raw processing software will look (at default settings) the same as the in-camera jpeg. 

And neither is the "original" that the other "emulates".  Both are doing the same thing to the raw data, and producing the same result. 

Other raw processing software (including Adobe's) can't read the proprietary metadata, so start from their own defaults.  That doesn't make them worse (or better) - just different. 

[digitaldog]

The raw file contains sufficient meta-data for Canon themselves to "regenerate" the JPEG looks in their raw developer.

That is my understanding too. You pick Picture Style A, you get that in the JPEG of course. And some proprietary metadata in raw that the manufacturer's converter can emulate. How well the two match in all cases is another question, I never use this 'feature'.

[StoneNYC]

I believe that this is wrong. The raw file contains sufficient meta-data for Canon themselves to "regenerate" the JPEG looks in their raw developer.

The issue seems to be parsing and interpreting the meta-data. "Sharpness +2" might mean something meaningful in Canons cross-platform raw developer, but might not (easily) translate to something meaningful for the ACR pipeline.

-h

So then, why not just process it through canons processor first and then exported from there to an Adobe product and work on it there now that it's been processed?