Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 ... 23   Go Down

Author Topic: Pentax 645Z  (Read 144378 times)

bcooter

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1512
Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #40 on: April 11, 2014, 07:08:54 am »

Welcome, Pentax. We need one decently priced camera in MF, that people who need better quality can get without mortgaging their house.

Edmund

What's affordable.  35, 25, 20, 15, 10, 9, 8 grand . . . even less?

The dealers on this forum can hook you up in a heartbeat with everything from Leaf, Leica, Phase and yes Pentax that will hit any of those numbers and if whether they are new or used, they will perform . . . even out perform even the most discerning of clients and photographers.

Now I believe that for a base body 10 to 20 is the magic number as long as you don't get caught up in two syndromes.  1.  I gotta have a new one the day it's announced and/or 2.  I gotta have 4 billion iso and 10 fps.

For that Nikon and Canon is more than happy to oblige, but an affordable larger than 35mm camera is out there for most professional budgets.

But I think you should remember what Steve said that when he puts a 10 grand pentax on a counter, then a Leaf, then a Phase and then a Leica, even the cost sensitive buyer usually doesn't walk out with the Pentax, even though v1 was a very good camera.

Now if Pentax had the buffer, the repair facilities, easy tethering, a lens line up that took less searching and a clear intention that they plan on being in the medium format business, it might go the other way.

IMO

BC
Logged

Radu Arama

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 138
Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #41 on: April 11, 2014, 08:07:04 am »

Hi Bernard,

I was talking about how it seems the three companies are judging the sensor and for me it doesn't make any sense. Two are rating their cameras ISO 100-6400 and the Pentax is so hugely different that I cannot think but maybe is not same sensor (although it has the precise same dimensions and 99,99% it really is the same sensor). Also the frame rate is not in the P1+hasselblad range.

As for the real IQ we'll have to wait for the hands on tests and real pictures when the camera will be ready but at least on paper based on the factors we already know (such as ISO limits, the high number of pixels, the very apt AF system in low light) this could be (in a very weird kind on way being a medium format camera) the ultimate low light camera.

The second part was an irony because some folks tried to suggest that Pentax 645D was so inexpensive compared with similar camera from P1 or Hasselblad because Pentax took second grade sensors from Kodak, the ones that couldn't qualify for "a better camera". Which is of course totally unproven.

Best regards,
Radu

Hi Radu,

This comment is a bit difficult to interpret. The first part of the sentence implies that the 645Z has better image quality than the P1/H implementations, which I would think may be the case at higher ISOs if the ISO100,000 rumours are true... but then the second part of your sentence seems to hint that the image quality may not be as good with the 645Z... ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

Logged

eronald

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6638
    • My gallery on Instagram
Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #42 on: April 11, 2014, 09:27:48 am »

J,

 As a fashion photographer, with real everyday billing and real ability, what you say is true.

 But if you're a working pro with a studio in a provincial little town, and the economy is bad, you're living off baby pics, passport shots, senior portraits and marriages, then you want a cheap solid performer that has that no-fuss clarity which you get from the bigger cams, and a bottom price ticket, and gets the shot every time.  I think the Pentax will come in *new* at 8.5 list, 7 retail and will hit this population, giving them the decent ISO and SLR flexibility at the price they want.

 Also, I look at the huge interest the Pentax K3 is getting from enthusiasts, and I'm wondering if Pentax isn't doing the same thing as Olympus, staging and unexpected comeback. You've seen the Olympus phenom firsthand and no one would ever have expected that a small cam not made by N or C would become your workhorse. There's nothing less sexy than a K3, but it's at the top of the charts on that consumer site we all love to hate.

Edmund

What's affordable.  35, 25, 20, 15, 10, 9, 8 grand . . . even less?

The dealers on this forum can hook you up in a heartbeat with everything from Leaf, Leica, Phase and yes Pentax that will hit any of those numbers and if whether they are new or used, they will perform . . . even out perform even the most discerning of clients and photographers.

Now I believe that for a base body 10 to 20 is the magic number as long as you don't get caught up in two syndromes.  1.  I gotta have a new one the day it's announced and/or 2.  I gotta have 4 billion iso and 10 fps.

For that Nikon and Canon is more than happy to oblige, but an affordable larger than 35mm camera is out there for most professional budgets.

But I think you should remember what Steve said that when he puts a 10 grand pentax on a counter, then a Leaf, then a Phase and then a Leica, even the cost sensitive buyer usually doesn't walk out with the Pentax, even though v1 was a very good camera.

Now if Pentax had the buffer, the repair facilities, easy tethering, a lens line up that took less searching and a clear intention that they plan on being in the medium format business, it might go the other way.

IMO

BC
« Last Edit: April 11, 2014, 09:35:36 am by eronald »
Logged
If you appreciate my blog posts help me by following on https://instagram.com/edmundronald

BernardLanguillier

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 13280
    • http://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlanguillier/sets/
Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #43 on: April 11, 2014, 10:08:52 am »

Edmund,

The reality is that market was served perfectly fine by the D100 12 years ago and just as well today by any mirrorless camera, including the Nikon V3/J4.

The 645Z is overkill by a factor of 10.

Cheers,
Bernard

BJL

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6600

I was talking about how it seems the three companies are judging the sensor and for me it doesn't make any sense. Two are rating their cameras ISO 100-6400 and the Pentax is so hugely different that I cannot think but maybe is not same sensor (although it has the precise same dimensions and 99,99% it really is the same sensor).
The range of exposure index settings (co-called "ISO") offered on a camera has only a very loose relationship to its "ISO sensitivity" in the sense of noise levels; some cameras limit the EI settings roughy to the ISO recommended upper EI limit "Ssnr10" based on a SNR of 10:1 or better (the upper end of the exposure latitude as described in ISO standard 12232), while others allow much higher settings, perhaps on the basis that those higher settings will be used as a last resort and the noise handled with downsampling, heavy noise reduction, or just by displaying at smaller sizes and so very high PPI.

It could just be the difference of Pentax offering some "High" EI settings ("pushes") to about 102,400 while the others stay roughly within the "normal" EI range based roughly on the ISO Ssnr10 spec., and so stop at 6,400,   That would be the same fours stop gap as the D4S does with its maximum normal speed of 25,600 and maximum high speed of 409,600. I can imagine these different decisions, given the different target usage: Phase One and Hasselblad more "studio and tripod" oriented, while the Pentax 645 system has greater orientation to more mobile outdoor amateur usage, where users might want to be more flexible about salvaging poor light situations by "pushing" the sensor.
Logged

BJL

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6600
Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #45 on: April 11, 2014, 11:23:52 am »

But if you're a working pro with a studio in a provincial little town, and the economy is bad, you're living off baby pics, passport shots, senior portraits and marriages ...
I mostly agree with Bernard: with the possible exception of posed wedding photos intended to allow very large prints, all those other needs are probably served perfectly well by the best of today's 36x24mm format offerings, and probably by even smaller formats, and such options are far more business savvy and cost-effective, even if not "in a studio in provincial little town where the economy is bad".  I will avoid debating whether the sweet spot format for the mug-shot categories of "baby pics, passport shots, senior portraits" is now "APS-C", 4/3", or 1"!
Logged

Ken R

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 849
Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #46 on: April 11, 2014, 11:58:08 am »

But if you're a working pro with a studio in a provincial little town, and the economy is bad, you're living off baby pics, passport shots, senior portraits and marriages, then you want a cheap solid performer that has that no-fuss clarity which you get from the bigger cams, and a bottom price ticket, and gets the shot every time.  I think the Pentax will come in *new* at 8.5 list, 7 retail and will hit this population, giving them the decent ISO and SLR flexibility at the price they want.

 Also, I look at the huge interest the Pentax K3 is getting from enthusiasts, and I'm wondering if Pentax isn't doing the same thing as Olympus, staging and unexpected comeback. You've seen the Olympus phenom firsthand and no one would ever have expected that a small cam not made by N or C would become your workhorse. There's nothing less sexy than a K3, but it's at the top of the charts on that consumer site we all love to hate.

Edmund


Baby pics and portraits? Honestly one can be very successful with a Nikon D3200 (or Canon Equiv. or M4/3 camera) and 2-3 nice lenses. More important would be the service, style, art direction and technical competence.

Regarding the DPreview stats. They usually favor the more recently released products. (That leaves out any Canon DSLR in recent memory).
« Last Edit: April 11, 2014, 12:55:11 pm by Ken R »
Logged

BJL

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6600
Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #47 on: April 11, 2014, 12:01:25 pm »

On one hand, at any one moment that DPReview "popular cameras" is skewed to recently reviewed (it counts page views, and reading a review can mean over dozen of them) or just recently announced, so it is best called "curiosity" and the K3 is on top now because its long-delayed review was finally published. On the other hand, the longer term "curiosity" trend is interesting: there is a far greater diversity beyond Canon and Nikon than a few years ago, with a consistent majority of ILCs on the list being non-SLRs.
Logged

Radu Arama

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 138

I said "ISO is a six figure number", I never said "max ISO is 102480"! Pentax tends to be quite conservative and most of their cameras have usable ISO about 3 stops bellow the upper limit. If this camera will deliver ISO12800 equivalent with the ISO 1600 of the current 645D I imagine I won't be the only one to call this a breakthrough  ...

The range of exposure index settings (co-called "ISO") offered on a camera has only a very loose relationship to its "ISO sensitivity" in the sense of noise levels; some cameras limit the EI settings roughy to the ISO recommended upper EI limit "Ssnr10" based on a SNR of 10:1 or better (the upper end of the exposure latitude as described in ISO standard 12232), while others allow much higher settings, perhaps on the basis that those higher settings will be used as a last resort and the noise handled with downsampling, heavy noise reduction, or just by displaying at smaller sizes and so very high PPI.

It could just be the difference of Pentax offering some "High" EI settings ("pushes") to about 102,400 while the others stay roughly within the "normal" EI range based roughly on the ISO Ssnr10 spec., and so stop at 6,400,   That would be the same fours stop gap as the D4S does with its maximum normal speed of 25,600 and maximum high speed of 409,600. I can imagine these different decisions, given the different target usage: Phase One and Hasselblad more "studio and tripod" oriented, while the Pentax 645 system has greater orientation to more mobile outdoor amateur usage, where users might want to be more flexible about salvaging poor light situations by "pushing" the sensor.
Logged

BJL

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6600

I said "ISO is a six figure number", I never said "max ISO is 102480"!
I was referring to the rumor of "Highest ISO: 102,400 or 204,800", not your words, and anyway those are both six figure numbers, so what exactly are you objecting to in what I said?

If this camera will deliver ISO12800 equivalent with the ISO 1600 of the current 645D I imagine I won't be the only one to call this a breakthrough  ...
Where is that "three stop" claim coming from?  Not that I am rejecting it; I would expect a low light improvement of a couple of stops, based on comparing Sony's CMOS sensors to Kodak and Dalsa's CCDs, and I would expect something like that much gain from Phase One and Hasselblad too, not just Pentax.


Anyway, we should probably not debate the fine details of rumored specs!
« Last Edit: April 11, 2014, 05:20:21 pm by BJL »
Logged

tsjanik

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 720
Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #50 on: April 11, 2014, 03:27:36 pm »

Looks like all of the FA lenses except the 300mm/4 will finally be offered on the US market again.  It's about time as many are as good as the digital lenses of other manufacturers.  Prices are less than their recent new developments, giving users a wide choice of lenses.  They could have done without the 45 and the 33-55, and offered the 300mm/4 instead, but otherwise it's great news as their lens range has become competitive once more. 

Tom,

I can't help but think the absence of the 300mmm f/4 is a data entry problem (in other words, somebody screwed up).  B&H lists the 300mm f/5.6,  which has been discontinued, for $4800.  That price is much higher than in the past and the current prices in Japan and Europe; it's more appropriate for the f/4 version of the lens.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ntt=pentax+645+lenses&N=0&InitialSearch=yes&sts=ma&Top+Nav-Search=

Tom
Logged

mikeSF_

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18
    • Mike Oria Photography
Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #51 on: April 11, 2014, 04:08:37 pm »

good news about the lenses. Pentax/Ricoh is making good on the earlier statement of committing to the 645 platform.
Logged
Pentax 645Z & K3II www.mikeoria.com

Lacunapratum

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 184
Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #52 on: April 11, 2014, 05:30:08 pm »

You do have a point there, Tom.  I was also surprised about the excessive pricing for the 300mm f/5.6 when compared to the other lenses (e.g. the 150-300mm or the 400mm).  The $4.5K range matches what is charged in Japan or Europe for a new 300mm f/4.  Hope you are correct as it's one of my favorite lenses.   
Logged

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11284
    • Echophoto
Re: Pentax 645Z ( a generic comment )
« Reply #53 on: April 12, 2014, 03:27:25 am »

Hi,

I guess that having a state of the alternative MF camera at a decent price would be a great advantage for anyone looking for improved image quality. If leaf shutters and high speed shutter sync is needed or for tethered shooting with C1 look somewhere else.

Putting a twice as large CMOS sensor of EXMOR type into an MFDSLR obviously gives higher image quality in some conditions than a similar sensor of half the area.

A question is weather small sensor cameras with high end lenses like Zeiss Otus and some Sigma A-series can keep up with larger sensor, specially with 54 MP possibly showing up on DSLRs in a year or so. Are those Pentax lenses good enough to compete with the best of 24x36 lenses of today and tomorrow?

Best regards
Erik



« Last Edit: April 12, 2014, 03:47:08 am by ErikKaffehr »
Logged
Erik Kaffehr
 

tsjanik

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 720
Re: Pentax 645Z specs
« Reply #54 on: April 12, 2014, 09:20:16 am »

Specification for the 645Z have appeared on the German site:

http://www.ricoh-imaging.de/de/mittelformatkameras/technische-details/645D.html

Key features (for me anyway):

51 MP
Live view with focus peaking
3 fps

Oh and ISO 100-204,800!!?

Tom


Logged

MrSmith

  • Guest
Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #55 on: April 12, 2014, 09:28:06 am »

"Phase detection autofocus system SAFOX 11 with 27 AF sensors (including 25 cross-type sensors and flux sensors for optimum AF performance with fast lenses).

Spot AF and AF automatic, switchable to tracking (Servo) Autofocus. Focus Lock on trigger.
Each of the 27 AF points can be selected manually.

The Predictive already sums up the subject on the edge and calculates the correct focus for moving subjects advance."

Wonder how good that is compared to tru-focus or the phamiya?
Logged

eronald

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6638
    • My gallery on Instagram
Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #56 on: April 12, 2014, 09:42:13 am »

"Phase detection autofocus system SAFOX 11 with 27 AF sensors (including 25 cross-type sensors and flux sensors for optimum AF performance with fast lenses).

Spot AF and AF automatic, switchable to tracking (Servo) Autofocus. Focus Lock on trigger.
Each of the 27 AF points can be selected manually.

The Predictive already sums up the subject on the edge and calculates the correct focus for moving subjects advance."

Wonder how good that is compared to tru-focus or the phamiya?

Yes, one of our great hopes is that Pentax will finally force the existing guys to upgrade their AF systems to something closer to a normal dSLR, although I guess with the new sony CMOS everybody gets liveview focus in the studio.

There's some camera porn of the Z up on digicameinfo.

The display screen looks tiltable, which makes sense because it lets some cooling airflow get closer to the sensor and distances a heat source. Vertical shooters will as always appreciate the side tripod mount.

Edmund
« Last Edit: April 12, 2014, 10:14:51 am by eronald »
Logged
If you appreciate my blog posts help me by following on https://instagram.com/edmundronald

tsjanik

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 720
Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #57 on: April 12, 2014, 11:01:02 am »

Same images here, but this site confirms a price of $8,500 US.

http://www.cameraegg.org/pentax-645z-front-top-back-side-images/
Logged

eronald

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6638
    • My gallery on Instagram
Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #58 on: April 12, 2014, 11:12:38 am »

Same images here, but this site confirms a price of $8,500 US.

http://www.cameraegg.org/pentax-645z-front-top-back-side-images/

Images *from* the camera might be more interesting than images *of* the camera :)

Edmund
Logged
If you appreciate my blog posts help me by following on https://instagram.com/edmundronald

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11284
    • Echophoto
Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #59 on: April 12, 2014, 11:24:09 am »

You sure? This is an MFD thread!

Best regards
Erik


Images *from* the camera might be more interesting than images *of* the camera :)

Edmund
Logged
Erik Kaffehr
 
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 ... 23   Go Up