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Author Topic: Fuji X-T1 review - Part II  (Read 20400 times)

jjj

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Re: Fuji X-T1 review - Part II
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2014, 10:59:00 pm »

BC, in this last post and a couple of others, it seems like you shoot jpeg not raw. Is that the case?

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Rob C

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Re: Fuji X-T1 review - Part II
« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2014, 03:48:57 am »


OK.

Before I answer remember this line.   Penis Envy.  If you like old Sean Connery then the em-1 probably isn't your cup of single malt.

Rotten low light.

Nothing without a tripod works well in rotten low light.   I mean you can shot it and some cameras like the 5d3, or d3/d4 will smooth the heck out of it but honestly nothing really works that well past 1000 or so iso unless you don't mind doing a cinema look and silouettes.

Remember between f 4 and 5.6 on a 35mm  camera is 2.8 on a m43 so what takes almost 3,000 iso Full Frame takes under 1,000 iso on m43


Skin Tones

Beautiful as any camera I've used.   The camera is adjustable, you can make a look, even if you shoot raw and they color quickly because next to my 1dx which has more of a global color the em-1/em5 have more specific color.  

They do hold up as well as my Canon 1dx.

But under really good light medium format kills, even old medium format.

_______________________________


I never bought m43 for stills, I bought the pana m43 for smaller motion cameras to compliment our REDs.  

I bought the em-5 just because I wanted to though It took me two months to actually trust that that tiny sensor.

I actually believe the em-5 shoots a slightly prettier file than the em-1 (different sensors) bought the em-1 because it had a pc connection and is  a much better thought out  camera.

Also sleep can be turned off when tethering wi-fi to an ipad (what a drag to tether to an ipad)

______________________________

To me the upside of the em-1 is.

1.   It's built beautifully.   Not leica like because of the design, but think what a film nikon would feel like if Leica built it.

Obviously Olympus hit it with the em-5 then the em-1 because Sony, Nikon and Fuji copied it, though without the feel and in the A7's case, the build quality.    

You really have to use it to understand how well olympus makes this camera.  

2.  wysiwyg viewfinder.  I use the em-4 add on finder because it goes waist level to straight on and it keeps my nose away from the rear lcd.  Either way you can adjust any of the viewfinders to more closely match your computer.  Not exact but closer.

3.  Any lens.  This comes with an asterick because whatever lens you use you double the length.  25 is 50, 42 is 84, 12 is 24.    

4.  Manual focus.   You can actually see what your shooting.    Now it takes a while to get use to an evf.  

5.  Static Auto focus.  Wicked fast and covers the whole frame (almost)

6.  Tracking focus.  Not as bad as people think, but not the camera to shoot at Silverstone. Could be some day, but today that 1dx or D4 territory.  

7.  Size.   I'm not a walk around take a picture guy, but 6 lenses and two bodies can easily fit in a small messenger bag, but see #1 on downsides.

8.  Format.   43 is great for verticals, not great for horizontal.  If I shot fine art, then everything would be 43 format and having those extra sides for some reason let's you allow the image to breath.

9.  Touch screen that works, though I turn it off cause the switches are easier.

10.  Once set up you have built your own camera.

The downside of the em-1

1.   Penis envy.   It's really difficult to look at a little camera and a little sensor and think your going to be serious about the image.

I can prove it's good, I do use it, but I always feel in the back of my mind I could do better.  (in so, so many ways).

Though I think if the olympus was the size of a pentax 6x7 and had a fake frame format and big lenses and you saw the output people would scream  "yea boy, that's the way big film like cameras shoot."

2.   Other cameras, which translates to penis envy.   I wanted the Sony A7 to be better.     I tested it time and time again against my em-5 and every file, every time was not up to the olympus.  I know some people are going to show me a chart to prove the opposite, but I never saw it.

In fact I was very surprised since the em-5 has a Sony sensor and shoots a beautiful file

3.  Lenses.  The negative is I dig lenses and they all have a use.  The Oly primes are great most are fast, the slowest f2.   Nothing wider than 12 (24mm) at F4.   Then there is the non micro 43 lenses that are semi big but all fast f2 for a 150 (300mm in ff).

That's a great lens.  The Pana Leicas are nice from 1.2 to 1.4 but are expensive over a grand for each.

Really all the lenses are covered, it just costs to really cover and want autofocus.   If you manually focus I'd just buy the three .95 Voightlanders and be done with it.  Those are beautiful lenses, period.

4.  Crazy ass menu.  Doesn't revert back to where you were.  It takes hours to get it right and the manual is just as insane.  Now once you've done it, it's done and your camera is really "your" camera.

The menu makes sense it's just deep, deep and deep.  

(Ever see your Parents try to program a vhs recorder?  Now you get the idea of the olympus menu).

IMO

BC

PS  Just one other thing.  Once you get past the screwy menu, the evf learning, the setup, as crazy as this sounds for an all electronic device but it becomes very analog.  It's like picking up an F3 and start shooting.  Sure you gotta set you wb and iso, but that's like loading film so no big, but of all the cameras out there, except Leica, in the modern world this camera is analog and I think even more so than the fuji and I can't really explain why.




Thanks, BC, for the time for your exhaustive response!

Penis envv isn't a problem here -  don't think it ever was; what exists has kept me happy long enough - isn't that what it's for? ;-)

Anyway, thanks again for your views on the camera. As you probably know, I was/am a Nikon shooter since forever, but I did once look at the Leica R6 in a dealership; it felt very good, very solid and heavy for the size. But wasn't it actually a Minolta product? Whatever, it didn't offer full screen coverage so that was that.

I agree with the problems about 135 format verticals: too skinny and cramping, but the format's rather nice as horizontals. It's the reason I now tend to keep the camera horizontal most of the time - no page shapes to fill, and the sense of 'location' comes through better when there's a bit more of it on show around the subject.

Still digging London?

Rob C

MHMG

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Re: Fuji X-T1 review - Part II
« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2014, 01:18:33 pm »

It's amazing how well a second camera body helps to alleviate all those "What lens plus settings to choose as preset" anxieties when working under uncertain conditions in the field :)

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
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bcooter

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Re: Fuji X-T1 review - Part II
« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2014, 04:01:36 pm »


Still digging London?

Rob C



Yea, though traveling now.  Warm in LA, tomorrow cold in NY.

I didn't mean to go so far in my response, it set on the computer for a few days and I just added on it between sessions.

I guess I should proofread.

Most of what I said on the Olympus holds true for the fuji and of all the camera companies, I like the people at fuji, like their low key style.

I'd have done the fuji in a heartbeat if they did video well, but like I said I backed into m43 because of video.  The still side was just a plus.

IMO

BC
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Rob C

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Re: Fuji X-T1 review - Part II
« Reply #24 on: March 05, 2014, 05:15:07 pm »

Yea, though traveling now.  Warm in LA, tomorrow cold in NY.

I didn't mean to go so far in my response, it set on the computer for a few days and I just added on it between sessions.

I guess I should proofread.

Most of what I said on the Olympus holds true for the fuji and of all the camera companies, I like the people at fuji, like their low key style.

I'd have done the fuji in a heartbeat if they did video well, but like I said I backed into m43 because of video.  The still side was just a plus.

IMO

BC


Are you crazy? Folks here love your replies; you're one of the few doing very much anyone else would love to be doing!

Keep 'em alive and coming.

Rob C

peterzpicts

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Re: Fuji X-T1 review - Part II
« Reply #25 on: March 05, 2014, 05:16:46 pm »

I got a chance to handle a XT-1 at the camera store yesterday.  Its a nice piece of kit but I think the retro control knob think has its place for those who have not moved on. My serious photography got going on a Chinon CP7-m a fully modern SLR with electronic controls. A contemporary PASM mode dial just makes sense when accompanied with custom modes to retain presets.  Perhaps Fuji will follow up with a XT-1 body with a contemporary control layout call it a XC-1. I would be much happier plunking down the cash on something like that.  Even more so  in a cheaper plastic body, cameras are still evolving too fast to plunk down top dollar on something so rugged but still having little plastic buttons.
Pete
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Telecaster

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Re: Fuji X-T1 review - Part II
« Reply #26 on: March 05, 2014, 05:51:24 pm »

Remember between f 4 and 5.6 on a 35mm camera is 2.8 on a m43 so what takes almost 3,000 iso Full Frame takes under 1,000 iso on m43

Factor in sensor-based stabilization (IBIS) and, depending on the lens, the difference is even greater. With the A7r, for example, I shoot handheld at a 2x focal length minimum Tv with non-stabilized lenses (meaning everything but the 24–70/4 zoom). With longer lenses I speed up the Tv even more. With the E-M1/5 in low light I typically use .5x focal length handheld, and this is conservative. I have no qualms about using the 17.5/0.95 Voigtländer wide open at 1/8th sec. if needed. The equivalent native lens on the Sony is 3 stops+ slower (though more like 2.6 stops in actual light transmission) and needs 1/80th sec. for me to feel confident using it. Bye bye larger sensor noise advantage.

-Dave-
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thebatman

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Re: Fuji X-T1 review - Part II
« Reply #27 on: March 05, 2014, 06:11:21 pm »

I'm conflicted.  Looking to upgrade from an OMD-EM5.  OM1 would be logical, and it's a great camera.  But, I do find the m4/3 images a bit "flat" / two dimensional.  I have rented APS-C Fujis, and both those and my 60D can render a more 3D-like feeling to the pictures, by my eye (think basic family, kids, travel subjects).

Would love someone to convince me the difference isn't real, but I think this actually is one aspect that is an image quality difference between the Olympus and the Fuji.  Plus I love the thought of shooting the Fuji 56 1.2 :)

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jjj

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Re: Fuji X-T1 review - Part II
« Reply #28 on: March 05, 2014, 08:06:11 pm »

I'm conflicted.  Looking to upgrade from an OMD-EM5.  OM1 would be logical, and it's a great camera.  But, I do find the m4/3 images a bit "flat" / two dimensional.  I have rented APS-C Fujis, and both those and my 60D can render a more 3D-like feeling to the pictures, by my eye (think basic family, kids, travel subjects).

Would love someone to convince me the difference isn't real, but I think this actually is one aspect that is an image quality difference between the Olympus and the Fuji.  Plus I love the thought of shooting the Fuji 56 1.2 :)
The Fuji sensor is larger, so depth of field is reduced, so that may be what you are experiencing.
I had a 20D years back and it never really worked for me and traded up to a 5D as soon as I could and loved the bigger sensor. Try shooting at wider apertures and see if that helps.

However I have no issues with a smaller sensor for a carry around camera as I tend to prefer large DoF then.
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peterottaway

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Re: Fuji X-T1 review - Part II
« Reply #29 on: March 05, 2014, 08:27:16 pm »

IBIS or whatever is nice to have but rarely if ever essential. It can be used in combination with proper panning technique etc to improve the number of shots that you may keep rather than discard at the outset of your editing.

I keep on finding that not only people and animals are just so unreasonable in they keep on moving about at different speeds and that the wind blows end so on. None of which we can get IBIS to do anything about.It's like FPS, just because you can keep on blasting away at 11 fps it doesn't mean you are going to get anything of any use - you might, you might not.

Some of my cameras have IBIS,some of my lenses have some form or stabilization just like some of them work with body screw focus motors and others have built in motors.

IBIS is more a point of justification as to the camera you actually bought than a reason to buy that camera. Unless of course you suffer from some form of motor neuron disease when it can be a definite need if you are going to continue photography. Or AF is for someone with failing eyesight.

I prefer to use 24MP and 36 MP FF cameras as they give me more options than a camera body much the same size with a quarter sized sensor. To each their own.

« Last Edit: March 05, 2014, 08:29:51 pm by peterottaway »
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jjj

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Re: Fuji X-T1 review - Part II
« Reply #30 on: March 05, 2014, 09:38:21 pm »

I keep on finding that not only people and animals are just so unreasonable in they keep on moving about at different speeds and that the wind blows end so on. None of which we can get IBIS to do anything about.
I had an argument with someone once who insisted that IS would freeze moving objects and showed an image that proved his point. The image was indeed very sharp aprt from the blurry dog jumping through the air.  ::)

Quote
It's like FPS, just because you can keep on blasting away at 11 fps it doesn't mean you are going to get anything of any use - you might, you might not.
I do dance photography and out of curiosity I tried using motor drive on one occasion to see how well it worked. Not very.
I get a much higher hit rate taking a shot at the moment I want instead.

Quote
IBIS is more a point of justification as to the camera you actually bought than a reason to buy that camera. Unless of course you suffer from some form of motor neuron disease when it can be a definite need if you are going to continue photography. Or AF is for someone with failing eyesight.
I find IS useful, but then I shoot in dingy conditions a fair bit so it helps with low shutter speeds and is very good for handheld camera footage.
You can't manually focus fast lens accurately on Canon focusing screens, because they make all fast lenses seem like f2.8s. So it's either AF or Live view.

Quote
I prefer to use 24MP and 36 MP FF cameras as they give me more options than a camera body much the same size with a quarter sized sensor. To each their own.
Didn't know they were mutually exclusive.  :P
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John Rausch

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Re: Fuji X-T1 review - Part II
« Reply #31 on: March 06, 2014, 09:16:49 am »

I agree with Michaels comments about the X-T1, but have my own opinion about the retro interface. I posted a question about the retro aspects of the X-T1 on the DPReview forums and received a lot of comments, basically three categories:

A. I like the way it looks.

B. Why don't you go buy a black plastic blob. What looks better to you, a 1960s vintage muscle car or a Ford Fiesta? A somewhat hostile variation of A.

C. I like the controls that are like old film cameras because it is a long-established and well thought out camera interface. I equally like being able to glance at the top of the X-T1 and know the settings.

For categories A and B there is no argument or cogent response. They are what they are. For category C I have a few things to point out. Let's assume the following are the settings you would like to know by glancing at the body and lens:

1. Focus Mode (M, C or S)
2. OIS (On or Off)
3. Aperture (A or f/stop)
4. ISO
5. Drive
6. Shutter Speed
7. Metering Mode
8. Exposure Compensation

To see all takes more than a glance. You might have to tilt the camera forward if it's not hanging around you neck, and you will have to tilt it back and tip it to see 1-3. Let's take them one at a time.

1. Focus Mode. What you see is what you get.

2. OIS. What you see is what you get.

3. Aperture. There are two variations.

-- If you have a prime with aperture settings on the ring, you know the setting. There is an exception. If you are using the remote control app, the aperture can be changed in the app regardless of where the ring is set.

-- If you have an XF lens without markings on the aperture ring or an XC lens without an aperture ring, you cannot know the aperture by looking at the camera controls.

4. ISO. What you see is what you get with the same exception for when you set it with the remote control app. The app settings are forgotten when it's disconnected -- except for the focus area, that sticks.

5. Drive. What you see it what you get with one annoying bit. The self timer turns off when the camera turns off. Very annoying when shooting in a light tent. I turn auto power off to off.

6. Shutter Speed. This is very annoying! When set to other than auto, the speeds are in full stop clicks. I can't imagine any finer setting on the dial. The rear command dial adjusts the shutter speed further in 1/3 stop increments +/- 2/3 stop. So you see an approximate shutter speed setting. Settings in 1/3 stop increments are standard for digital cameras. When shooting in a light tent with aperture set where I want, making fine adjustments for different objects require going back and forth between the dial on top and the dial on the front when a 1/3 stop adjustment crosses a full stop increment. I imagine this would hold true for many outdoor situations in low light. Very clumsy!

7. Metering Mode. What you see is what you get.

8. Exposure compensation. What you see is what you get. But, of course it is ignored in manual mode.

I can understand the attraction of what look and act (almost) like familiar mechanical controls, but they are not that at all. All of the settings on the camera except the zoom (focus, aperture, everything) are effectively buttons in the form of dials. Making the physical dials with physical markings limits the flexibility of settings that can be made without totally confusing the photographer. There is no reason everything except zoom could not be set by an app or other control, but for the confusion it would present. It is this conflict between what the physical settings show and what could be set that rule out customs settings.

I believe (hope?) the retro look and dials are purely a marketing thing and not a future direction. Incomprehensible menu settings for most digital cameras have sent people begging for the simplicity of the "old way". There is no reason a camera interface cannot be designed that makes important settings visible with the camera on or off and also intuitive, fast and simple to set. Wouldn't it be better to see these important settings in one high-contrast, small e-ink display on the top or back of the body instead of looking all around the camera? Someone said this would be expensive -- it would be much cheaper than machined dials.

There is really no good or bad in what I have said here. It's just the way the X-T1 works and my reaction to it. Several things annoy me, some not so much, some a lot, like the shutter speed setting and the self timer turning off. But, I'm keeping my X-T1. There are too many things to like about it, especially when compared to other mirrorless cameras. I believe Fujifilm, more than any other manufacturer is committed to quality, easy-to-use cameras primarily aimed at still photography. That's why I'm sticking with them for the foreseeable future.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2014, 11:33:52 am by John Rausch »
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barryfitzgerald

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Re: Fuji X-T1 review - Part II
« Reply #32 on: March 06, 2014, 09:30:17 am »

There was nothing wrong with PASM it works and works pretty well.
I don't mind the ISO setting dial that's useful enough..I can't really see the point of aperture control on lens and shutter speed dials on a modern body. Other than makers trying to re-invent the wheel, I think the retro take is not always a good idea and done for practical reasons.

I'd also like to point out a common misunderstanding from some ILC reviewers. Not every DSLR users wants a massive pro level body with meaty grip, some of us actually like mid sized bodies. And cameras have to be used too, making something small doesn't mean it's ergonomic or useful. Some folks may or may not be interested in a camera be it DSLR or ILC. The future is what people want, not what people think they should have forced on them.
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John Rausch

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Re: Fuji X-T1 review - Part II
« Reply #33 on: March 06, 2014, 09:32:39 am »

BarryFitzgerald,

Second that!
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George61d

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Re: Fuji X-T1 review - Part II
« Reply #34 on: March 06, 2014, 11:02:52 am »

Thanks for the post Michael.

While I agree that custom settings are useful, providing them on this camera would mean all the external controls would no longer indicate the way the camera is set up. This is a big bone of contention on the Nikon DF.

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John Rausch

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Re: Fuji X-T1 review - Part II
« Reply #35 on: March 06, 2014, 11:22:57 am »

George61D,

There are already instances where the external controls do not indicate the setting. Specifically, when adjustments have been made to the shutter speed using the rear command dial, and when the ISO, aperture or exposure compensation has been changed by the remote control app. Minor, but different.

The 1/3 stop shutter speed adjustments when in manual mode drive me nuts! Let's say I have the shutter speed set to 1/6 and I want to change it a full stop to 1/3. Quickly now, tell me what I have to do. I first move the dial from 4 to 2, then 2 clicks to adjust it to 1/3. This should be 3 clicks on a wheel with no mental calculation of what needs to be done.
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michael

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Re: Fuji X-T1 review - Part II
« Reply #36 on: March 06, 2014, 11:27:20 am »

Thanks for the post Michael.

While I agree that custom settings are useful, providing them on this camera would mean all the external controls would no longer indicate the way the camera is set up. This is a big bone of contention on the Nikon DF.



That indeed is the issue. It appears that one can't have both at the same time. It's then up to each individual to decide which they prefer.

M
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AFairley

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Re: Fuji X-T1 review - Part II
« Reply #37 on: March 06, 2014, 11:55:14 am »

I plunked down my cash for the X-E2 even though I am not a big fan of the traditional shutter speed dial and on-lens aperture ring (with which I am well familiar from film days).  The idea that these, and a topside iso dial let you see at a glance how you are set up is a canard.  On my D800E the top LCD lets me see exactly how I am set up at a glance, with tons of extra info too.  And the front and rear control wheels, in conjunction with various feature buttons (exp comp, iso, wb) let me change settings almost instantaneously, either with the camera up to my eye or not.  Now the Fuji X series are absolutely gorgeous cameras, but in terms of ergonomics, we have definitely moved on. (Still love shooting with the X-E2, though, feels great in the hand)
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George61d

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Re: Fuji X-T1 review - Part II
« Reply #38 on: March 06, 2014, 12:36:11 pm »

For sure....but then I like my lady...even if she snores  :)
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bcooter

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Re: Fuji X-T1 review - Part II
« Reply #39 on: March 06, 2014, 01:47:27 pm »

I'm conflicted.  Looking to upgrade from an OMD-EM5.  OM1 would be logical, and it's a great camera.  But, I do find the m4/3 images a bit "flat" / two dimensional.



Most people don't really shoot everything wide open, unless they're using a f4 zoom, but I see your point.  Then again, the rush to full frame out of focus backgrounds is kind of funky looking.

I shot this with medium format around F 5.6 and didn't focus to try to throw everything into a non de script blur but the subject into a blur, but to put attention where I wanted the viewer to look.

I actually always wished I had shot this stopped down more to show more detail in the rock formations of the background.

 

Since this was 645 with an 80mm, I would assume with m43 with a 35 it would be around 2.4 or something close.

OVF's with 35mm dslrs throw you.  They all look two stops down from wide open and I've tested this a lot doing background plates.

EVF's show you more of wysiwyg, but there is this thought of if the background is ugly throw it out of focus and in reality if the background is ugly then that usually means some of the image is uninteresting.

I'm not pushing stopping down, (though I do) because I think every lens ever made should be f.85 out of the box, because options are options.

Then again when you look at some of the beautiful photographs of the past from Ernst Haas  http://www.ernst-haas.com/  (I could make a much longer list than one photographer) he probably shot everything at f5.6 to 8 on his twin lens (I don't know, just guessing) and like most film photographers never dropped to f4 except under low light, because he filled his frame with beautiful composition and interesting images.

You see it all the time now, in commerce and art, a persons face and the background is a blur of blown out white blobs and that's not interesting, it's just stuff.

I'm buying the voight f.95 lenses for m43 and not for out of focus blur or the actual speed, but because the lenses have pretty rendering with the olympus and panasonics.  

I think the fuji is a good camera, but limiting.   There is nothing it really does that a full frame dslr won't and in the long run it's not less expensive than a 5d2 and obviously video doesn't concern you but I can't use the same lens set for stills and video with the fuji as I can m43.    I wish I could because I might have gone the fuji way.

maybe I look at cameras different but I don't believe in buying something that does what I currently have.   The olympus em-1/5 to me does some things other cameras don't.   They cover the full frame with  autofocus points (if you desire), and you can use the vf-4 finder and shoot waist level.   Waist level is such a different look than eyes level, no matter how much you twist your body to get lower.

The main thing they do is raw or jpeg,  they get rid of the red ear syndrome.   Dslrs and most cmos seem to have this ability to see changes in skin tones as red, especially in areas like ears, or in shadows or the worst backlight coming through the lightness of someone's ears.

Olympus does something unique with their settings, i don't know what it is but I do know it's unique and the rest to me seem like they are always kind of candy colored.

Still your right, sometimes bigger is better, bigger frame, faster lenses, etc. etc., but I find the difference between m43 and an aps c sensor to be minimum.  

IMO

BC
« Last Edit: March 06, 2014, 01:51:55 pm by bcooter »
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