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Author Topic: DxO: The New Leica S test  (Read 38434 times)

bcooter

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Re: DxO: The New Leica S test
« Reply #60 on: March 14, 2014, 11:03:38 pm »

Sounds like you're a happy customer. Congrats!
Edmund
 


It's not perfect, nothing is . . . but.

For this type of production in 2007 we'd have used my contax/phase.   We'd shoot about 12 setups a day with some options, but nothing mandatory.

Maybe some video, but not every setup.

Then it moved to more session per day, much more options (in other words, more wardrobe, talent, set changes) and mandatory video with 30 main sessions a day another 10 of major changes.

So we slowly moved to shooting 35mm, eventually the 1dx and shot a billion frames.

I think we spent as much time culling down the c__p out of thousands of frames as we did in processing for galleries.

The S or S2 made sense to me.  It's not a 35mm camera, not near as cross purposed with moving focus points.  Kind of like a smaller contax you can focus.

I hate to say it because I test everything, but never really tested it in anger until this shoot.   I did bring our two contax and phase backs, the 43 system and all my Canon systems (which we never touched).

Not a glitch so far, (knock on wood) and with less images but better images, we had very little culling down, and the first weeks galleries are going up as I write this.

Leica did a very good job, it feels like a billion bucks, solid and professional.  The leica lenses work identical to the contax lenses with focus though the leica 120 has a little different feel.  Different look though not 50% different but different.

The only dislike, which it took a day or two to get used to is the f stop wheel on the back.  Perfect position, but if you push it in (it has multifunction use) you go from your manual preset to an auto function.

It's a little to easy to push accidentily, though there might be a lock out in the menu, I haven't really checked, because I've caught it all but one time and after a day or so, it didn't happen anymore.

Nice camera.

Thanks

BC
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eronald

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Re: DxO: The New Leica S test
« Reply #61 on: March 14, 2014, 11:17:43 pm »

30 Main sessions a day?
Your makeup and dresser team must be going crazy.
I wonder how long the shutter on any of those cameras is going to last at this rate.


Edmund


It's not perfect, nothing is . . . but.

For this type of production in 2007 we'd have used my contax/phase.   We'd shoot about 12 setups a day with some options, but nothing mandatory.

Maybe some video, but not every setup.

Then it moved to more session per day, much more options (in other words, more wardrobe, talent, set changes) and mandatory video with 30 main sessions a day another 10 of major changes.

So we slowly moved to shooting 35mm, eventually the 1dx and shot a billion frames.

I think we spent as much time culling down the c__p out of thousands of frames as we did in processing for galleries.

The S or S2 made sense to me.  It's not a 35mm camera, not near as cross purposed with moving focus points.  Kind of like a smaller contax you can focus.

I hate to say it because I test everything, but never really tested it in anger until this shoot.   I did bring our two contax and phase backs, the 43 system and all my Canon systems (which we never touched).

Not a glitch so far, (knock on wood) and with less images but better images, we had very little culling down, and the first weeks galleries are going up as I write this.

Leica did a very good job, it feels like a billion bucks, solid and professional.  The leica lenses work identical to the contax lenses with focus though the leica 120 has a little different feel.  Different look though not 50% different but different.

The only dislike, which it took a day or two to get used to is the f stop wheel on the back.  Perfect position, but if you push it in (it has multifunction use) you go from your manual preset to an auto function.

It's a little to easy to push accidentily, though there might be a lock out in the menu, I haven't really checked, because I've caught it all but one time and after a day or so, it didn't happen anymore.

Nice camera.

Thanks

BC
« Last Edit: March 14, 2014, 11:19:56 pm by eronald »
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bcooter

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Re: DxO: The New Leica S test
« Reply #62 on: March 14, 2014, 11:20:59 pm »

30 Main sessions a day?
Your makeup and dresser team must be going crazy.

Edmund



The Real World and this was in a daylight studio in NY where every 45 minutes we'd lose the daylight fill, have to bounce hmi's to compensate, then kill them, or kill 1/3of them and do two frames to hit the mix, then get to it.

It all turned out pretty.

But that's nothing.   Our makeup artist just came off a gig (not ours) where she did hair/makeup/styling on 6 actors for a video, over 10 setups a day with dialog.

Try doing hair and styling clothes at the same time.

I was told, Dallas buyers club did 49 setups a day.

IMO

BC

« Last Edit: March 14, 2014, 11:23:41 pm by bcooter »
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eronald

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Re: DxO: The New Leica S test
« Reply #63 on: March 14, 2014, 11:31:38 pm »

I once saw some images from "Memoirs of a Geisha" that showed they built a lightbox the size of a house, literally,  suspended on a crane, to solve their daylight problems. I guess if it comes out pretty in the end, and you're still alive ...

Edmund

The Real World and this was in a daylight studio in NY where every 45 minutes we'd lose the daylight fill, have to bounce hmi's to compensate, then kill them, or kill 1/3of them and do two frames to hit the mix, then get to it.

It all turned out pretty.

But that's nothing.   Our makeup artist just came off a gig (not ours) where she did hair/makeup/styling on 6 actors for a video, over 10 setups a day with dialog.

Try doing hair and styling clothes at the same time.

I was told, Dallas buyers club did 49 setups a day.

IMO

BC


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Atina

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Re: DxO: The New Leica S test
« Reply #64 on: March 15, 2014, 05:31:42 am »

Explain.

How did you lose the daylight fill every 45 minutes?

Why did you have to kill the HMIs after you've bounced them?

Why did you only do two frames, and what does "hitting the mix" and "getting to it" mean?

:)
« Last Edit: March 15, 2014, 05:33:25 am by Atina »
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bcooter

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Re: DxO: The New Leica S test
« Reply #65 on: March 15, 2014, 07:52:35 am »

Explain.

How did you lose the daylight fill every 45 minutes?

Why did you have to kill the HMIs after you've bounced them?

Why did you only do two frames, and what does "hitting the mix" and "getting to it" mean?

:)

I'd have to draw you a diagram, but what I meant was the weather and light in the daylight studio changed by the hour.  NY has had weather from 50f, to 20, rain, almost snow, clouds sun, etc.

When we set up prelight, we did so hoping for sunlight in the studio for ambient fill, dropping the shutter to a 60th, though as it got dark went to 1/15th.

In prelight I planned for long days (into night) and weather, so tried our best to mimick the daylight by using flash and hmi fill bouncing from the windows to the studio.

Had we been on a first floor we would have just shot diffused light through the window, but most NY daylight studios are on the upper floors, so though possible, not feasable.

In other words the light changed a lot, so we were semi prepared and under a 30 shot day you really don't have 30 minutes to move stuff around and test.  You have time to adjust shoot about two frames then start the session and client's are demanding, want the same look you started with so you gotta be fast and prepared.

The S2 helped just because it was stable.  Nothing is more frustrating than having everything ready and a camera issue, or focus issue, or any issue for that matter.

Today is an easier day, though very different setups.

IMO

BC
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peterv

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Re: DxO: The New Leica S test
« Reply #66 on: March 15, 2014, 09:45:04 am »

BC

I’m glad to read that your S2 is doing so well. Congratulations and may it serve you for many years, like your Contax system.

In another thread I noticed you mentioned the 120 mm was hunting sometimes and not always fast to lock on. That is a well known quirk of this lens in particular, the 120 actually should have had a focus limiter. I have the 70 mm and the 120 mm and there’s quite a difference with the long throw of the 120. Other S lenses tend to lock on focus faster without any hunting. In that respect the 120 takes some time getting used to. I can work around the hunting by aiming the AF cross at a contrasty subject near where I want the image to be sharp and then focus again for the last bit. For example eyebrow first, then the eye itself. AF on all S lenses is very accurate.

Word has it Leica may bring a specialised portrait lens, maybe a 100 mm Summicron. That would help to avoid the double duty (macro/portait) quirks of the 120 mm. So far I’m very happy with the 120, the rendering is nice and it’s quite sharp, though maybe a little less dreamy/characterful wide open than the Contax 140 mm.
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bcooter

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Re: DxO: The New Leica S test
« Reply #67 on: March 16, 2014, 12:13:40 am »

BC

I’m glad to read that your S2 is doing so well. Congratulations and may it serve you for many years, like your Contax system.

In another thread I noticed you mentioned the 120 mm was hunting sometimes and not always fast to lock on. That is a well known quirk of this lens in particular, the 120 actually should have had a focus limiter. I have the 70 mm and the 120 mm and there’s quite a difference with the long throw of the 120. Other S lenses tend to lock on focus faster without any hunting. In that respect the 120 takes some time getting used to. I can work around the hunting by aiming the AF cross at a contrasty subject near where I want the image to be sharp and then focus again for the last bit. For example eyebrow first, then the eye itself. AF on all S lenses is very accurate.

Word has it Leica may bring a specialised portrait lens, maybe a 100 mm Summicron. That would help to avoid the double duty (macro/portait) quirks of the 120 mm. So far I’m very happy with the 120, the rendering is nice and it’s quite sharp, though maybe a little less dreamy/characterful wide open than the Contax 140 mm.


Thanks,

I've been doing that finding something with detail parallel to the talent to stop the hunting, but honestly, I like the camera's screen, can manually focus it so I just switch to manual and it works.

Today shot one talent horizontal that moved quick and it's impossible to autofocus a face that quickly, so I went to manual missed a few got most and I'm not thinking about moving someone into the focus point, I'm just thinking about focus and composition.

I like a 120 for today's full length as locations are smaller and 120 to 110 fits perfectly, but I'll probably buy a 100 if they make it.

IMO

BC
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robert zimmerman

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Re: DxO: The New Leica S test
« Reply #68 on: March 16, 2014, 10:21:20 am »

One more day of production, though so far this week shot 3853 frames with the S-2 tethered, through Leica Image shuttle and lightroom.

Working strobe and daylight, daylight and hmi, heavy schedule, full sets.

Not one glitch, except the cord got pulled once and we reconnected.

No restarts, etc. etc. and the batteries in the Leica S2 last forever.

Now with the Canons might have double that number, but not the amount of good frames, so speed is relative, though the camera handles like a dslr with a viewfinder you can actually manually focus.

IMO

BC

Have you used the S2 on location without flash (or just a touch of fill) handheld? Just wondering how well it handles hand holding with the 70 or 120 at shutter speeds under 1/250th.
I've only tested the S2 in the studio, but it seems like the perfect location camera…also, what's the noise like at ISO 400 & 640? Grain like noise? Or do the colors get funky.
And how do you like the colors at 5500k? In good light my Phase get's really close to Kodak Portra in look, which is like injecting me with a dose of Heroin. It's the one thing next to tethering (although you don't seem to have lost your mind tethering with the S2) that would be really hard o part with. I know you can get there with any camera, but what's the starting point like?
Also, I'd have to fill the gap between the 70 and 120 – can you say anything about using the Contax 80mm or the Hassy 100mm? Have you tried them with the S converters?

Thank
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bcooter

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Re: DxO: The New Leica S test
« Reply #69 on: March 16, 2014, 01:24:02 pm »

Have you used the S2 on location without flash (or just a touch of fill) handheld? Just wondering how well it handles hand holding with the 70 or 120 at shutter speeds under 1/250th.
I've only tested the S2 in the studio, but it seems like the perfect location camera…also, what's the noise like at ISO 400 & 640? Grain like noise? Or do the colors get funky.
And how do you like the colors at 5500k? In good light my Phase get's really close to Kodak Portra in look, which is like injecting me with a dose of Heroin. It's the one thing next to tethering (although you don't seem to have lost your mind tethering with the S2) that would be really hard o part with. I know you can get there with any camera, but what's the starting point like?
Also, I'd have to fill the gap between the 70 and 120 – can you say anything about using the Contax 80mm or the Hassy 100mm? Have you tried them with the S converters?

Thank

And I can't answer all of your questions until we get into serious post procesisng, but yesterday worked in iso 80 (Pull) to iso 640.

Since I tethered to lightroom, I can't really compare the look to my Contax or C-1, which kind of go hand in hand, though once again in post processing I'll know much more.

In regards to lenses, I don't have hasselblad but have 35, 45, 55, 80, 140, 210 contax lenses and used all but the 35 and 210.  I also have the leica 120 I used extensively, though my two favorite lenses on any camera is the contax 55 and 80.

The focus is medium format focus, matches my contax, or a mamiya or a hasselblad H, except I can manually focus it easier than I can a Mamiya.

So far the camera is robust and tethering is slower than my p30+ and c-1 but solid and no issues.  You just have to learn the leica shuttle set up (easy) mark a hot folder and then turn on lightroom.  I also assume you can do the same with C-1, though I only use c-1 6 for my Contax so I can't really compare.

Of cameras I use, I would think it's kind of a cross between a medium format camera and a 35mm.   It's faster in use than most medium format due to it's form factor, since it's 2:3 instead of 4:3 horizontals are easier, for verticals you have to leave some room for page crops.

I don't know, like the camera, it works professionally is sharp, though not quite as sharp as my p30+ though out of camera I've always believed phase does some extra sharpening on their files.

In lightroom I can make a portra look, which to me is slightly flat and less saturated, but that's easy.   

In regards to grain, there is no grain, but 640 iso seems tops maybe a push to 800 in software. 

Yesterday did a lot of mixed colors and lights and used lightroom to present some effects.

Shot in studio, out, windowlight, flash, hmi, mixed. etc.   No issue.  One great thing (or not great depending) is if you go beyond 125th of a second the flash won't fire, (with the focal plane shutter).   Obviously if you have leaf shutter lenses it will fire at all shutter speeds.

So far great camera, feels kind of like my contax but easier to work.    Right now I have my two contax and phase backs for backup, though my case has ballooned to 68 lbs, but I have a lot of double lenses for backup also.


IMO

BC

PS.   One interesting thing is yesterday in one session, using window light and continuous HMI fill, I was kind of at the limit.  About 125th of a second at F 3.8 to 4 something at I think 360 iso.  The shot looked great but the talent was walking so I got some slight movement blur, not from the camera but the talent.

I pulled out an olympus em-1 at 200 iso, 1/400th amd 500th  of a second and f2.8 which was about the same dof as the s2.   The Olympus at 1/400th of a second and only being 16 mpx, actually had more detail than the S-1 because it was dead sharp throughout the range.

Pretty crazy that all those megapixels go to waste if there is movement, though the olympus is not as robust and obviously doesn't tether so I went back to the Leica, though I find this interesting.



« Last Edit: March 16, 2014, 01:33:09 pm by bcooter »
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robert zimmerman

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Re: DxO: The New Leica S test
« Reply #70 on: March 16, 2014, 04:53:10 pm »

In regards to lenses, I don't have hasselblad but have 35, 45, 55, 80, 140, 210 contax lenses and used all but the 35 and 210.  I also have the leica 120 I used extensively, though my two favorite lenses on any camera is the contax 55 and 80.

The focus is medium format focus, matches my contax, or a mamiya or a hasselblad H, except I can manually focus it easier than I can a Mamiya.

Okay, sounds reasonable. The (Phaseone) DF certainly is not an easy manual focus camera – very grainy screen, so it's f11 and intuition or switch to a Canon.

Quote
In lightroom I can make a portra look, which to me is slightly flat and less saturated, but that's easy.  

Yeah, but I'm talking more about skin tones, great reds and blues and the way a phase file, like a film file, can have a good strong curve and melt away in the highs and lows without blocking up/breaking off. And it does it with ease, not like a Canon file, which seem un-workable under some lighting conditions and usually just look thin and brittle and pinkish. But that's probably a cmos thing, although you keep raving about your Oly's, so maybe it's just a Canon thing.

Quote
PS.   One interesting thing is yesterday in one session, using window light and continuous HMI fill, I was kind of at the limit.  About 125th of a second at F 3.8 to 4 something at I think 360 iso.  The shot looked great but the talent was walking so I got some slight movement blur, not from the camera but the talent.

I pulled out an olympus em-1 at 200 iso, 1/400th amd 500th  of a second and f2.8 which was about the same dof as the s2.   The Olympus at 1/400th of a second and only being 16 mpx, actually had more detail than the S-1 because it was dead sharp throughout the range.

Pretty crazy that all those megapixels go to waste if there is movement, though the olympus is not as robust and obviously doesn't tether so I went back to the Leica, though I find this interesting.

There you go again. Man I'd like to see those files because when I look at om-d files on these forums I just cringe. Bad color and way too much contrast (on the ends of the curve).
Not trying to knock anyone, I just haven't seen anything that I thought was really good.
But I'll be honest, bokeh and high ISO are not high priority for me, so maybe I'm not in the same ballpark as most.
But great color, good highlight and shadow transition – like a good Pentax 67 negative – that's something that would like to see.

Many thanks for the infos.
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Manoli

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Re: DxO: The New Leica S test
« Reply #71 on: March 16, 2014, 05:07:16 pm »

...  so it's f11 and intuition or switch to a Canon.

Very good - really good - the best description of DF focus in under 200 words.

The focus is medium format focus, matches my contax, or a mamiya or a hasselblad H, except I can manually focus it easier than I can a Mamiya.

OOC - (out-of-curiosity) - Are you using the standard focusing screen or the split-screen one ?

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eronald

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Re: DxO: The New Leica S test
« Reply #72 on: March 16, 2014, 05:40:15 pm »

Ne'er a truer word was said in jest :)

Using Canon's files means a constant fight against burn-out or shadow noise.

Canon could learn a lot from Phase's color science, and Phase could learn a lot from Canon's ability to make decent cameras.


Edmund


... a phase file, like a film file, can have a good strong curve and melt away in the highs and lows without blocking up/breaking off.

The (Phaseone) DF certainly is not an easy manual focus camera – very grainy screen, so it's f11 and intuition or switch to a Canon.

« Last Edit: March 16, 2014, 06:00:40 pm by eronald »
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Doug Peterson

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Re: DxO: The New Leica S test
« Reply #73 on: March 16, 2014, 07:15:38 pm »

Okay, sounds reasonable. The (Phaseone) DF certainly is not an easy manual focus camera – very grainy screen, so it's f11 and intuition or switch to a Canon.

So I should go ahead delete the 430 frames I did with the IQ250/DF+ (180 of which were wide open) of the Miami wedding I shot this weekend?


110LS, f/2.8. Autofocus on DF+ set to continuous tracking


110LS, f/2.8. Manual focus on DF+ (AF might have been problematic due to ambient light being strongly backlit - didn't try, just used manual)
« Last Edit: March 16, 2014, 08:14:18 pm by Doug Peterson »
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eronald

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Re: DxO: The New Leica S test
« Reply #74 on: March 16, 2014, 07:23:49 pm »

So I should go ahead delete the 430 frames I did with the IQ250/DF+ (180 of which were wide open) of the Miami wedding I shot this weekend?


Autofocus on DF+ set to continuous tracking


Manual focus on DF+

Doug,

In the right photographer"s hands, any camera is the right camera :)

Edmund
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MrSmith

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Re: DxO: The New Leica S test
« Reply #75 on: March 16, 2014, 07:26:18 pm »

Do you think the clients will be able to tell what it's shot on when printed 12x16 on that wrinkly canvas stuff that's all the rage or shared on Facebook?
 ::)
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eronald

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Re: DxO: The New Leica S test
« Reply #76 on: March 16, 2014, 07:28:58 pm »

Do you think the clients will be able to tell what it's shot on when printed 12x16 on that wrinkly canvas stuff that's all the rage or shared on Facebook?
 ::)

Girl looks starry-eyed, guy shell-shocked :)
Neat image.

Edmund
« Last Edit: March 16, 2014, 09:21:12 pm by eronald »
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Doug Peterson

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Re: DxO: The New Leica S test
« Reply #77 on: March 16, 2014, 08:10:50 pm »

My only point being that you can read a lot of very definitive statements like "not an easy manual focus camera... f11... or switch to a Canon." I have no doubt this is 100% true... for the speaker. Whether any such statement is true for *you* I think is much better determined by your own testing than forum posts.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2014, 08:13:41 pm by Doug Peterson »
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Manoli

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Re: DxO: The New Leica S test
« Reply #78 on: March 16, 2014, 08:48:50 pm »

My only point being that you can read a lot of very definitive statements like "not an easy manual focus camera... f11... or switch to a Canon." I have no doubt this is 100% true... for the speaker. Whether any such statement is true for *you* I think is much better determined by your own testing than forum posts.

Then equally, by virtue of your own logic, your posts are 100% true for you, but not necessarily for others - jpg's notwithstanding.

Doug, in all honesty, I think you're over-reacting. It was a humorous quip and IMO quite amusing too. I don't believe anyone with a modicum of logic, would have interpreted it as anything else other than that - not even prospective PhaseOne customers !

M
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Doug Peterson

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Re: DxO: The New Leica S test
« Reply #79 on: March 16, 2014, 11:06:30 pm »

Then equally, by virtue of your own logic, your posts are 100% true for you, but not necessarily for others - jpg's notwithstanding.

Absolutely positively. I try very hard to not assume my experiences will translate to someone else's. Especially given my inherent bias (even if you fight hard to keep perspective you can never entirely eliminate your own bias).

Everyone must find their own truth and in my experience only one's own testing can do that.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2014, 11:18:54 pm by Doug Peterson »
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