DxO: The New Leica S test

[bcooter]

I guess with Leica the thought is to move bodies and put people in their cars, I mean cameras and get people out there actually producing work with their cameras.

Then like me you go hmm, I'd like an autofocus 120, you buy it, then you go hmm, I'd like an 70 with a leaf shutter and you . . .

well you get the idea.

IMO

BC

[Martin Ranger]

Precisely. And I think it is a very clever move.

Martin

[eronald]

General sentiment on the forum is, I believe that people liked the Hassy square format and regret it. Gimme back my square!


Edmund

Wasn't aimed at you per se, I understand that it makes perfect business sense for you to get a system that will allow you to work with your existing Contax lenses.

But the general sentiment in the forum regarding this topic is that Leica has done something unprecedented, which simply isn't true. One of the main reasons I went with Phamiya (And Nikon when I moved to 35mm digital) is the ability to use legacy AF lenses for not much.

The old Mamiya lenses (Except the 35, which is built like a tank) are plasticky, but not much unlike a Modern Nikon G prime. The 210mm I have is as sharp as the 80mm Schneider LS, which is impressive in my books.

[bcooter]

Not to belabor the subject, but buying the S2 . . . wasn't a business move, it was a ME move.

I've got cameras and honestly a client will accept a 1dx file just like a medium format file.   I see a difference . . .  maybe a few clients say they do, but once production starts everybody forgets if your shooting with a RED and Arri a Phase, A Canon or a Nikon.

Actually the D800 is probably the most cost efficient camera made, but It wasn't for me and i can't explain why.

The last two years we've busted tail and worked a billion hours shooting combination still and motion projects where the motion is more important than the stills.   I like motion, have learned volumes, love it when I have time to work a concept, script and not have to shoot a billion setups a day, but in my heart and soul I'll always be a photographer.

I had a 1 day break last November, went to the Mayfair store in London and for the first time held a Leica S or S2 and It felt nice.  Almost bought it there, but I deal with Steve at CI and I knew he'd be the go to guy for my type of craziness and he was, found me what I wanted and life went on.

But the Leica was for me and my producer/stylist partner who loves fashion, loves stills and loves pretty work.    She loves the leica gallery in NY, she loves the look of the leica camera and she likes what we shot.   The problem is I really like shooting stills with it.   This week we also had to shoot some motion (I hate the term video) and it's wasn't priority but it was important and honestly for the first time in two years I didn't want to shoot the motion, I just wanted to keep shooting stills, so yes, the Leica was for us.

It was fun to go back and manually focus, not see a lcd viewfinder, put on a big lens that wasn't a PL and required a focus puller.

And I'll say this again.  I'm not comparing it to anything I don't own.   I love the look of the hasselblad h5d 40 and the file it produces, I respect the sturdiness of the Phase backs and dig my old Contax, but  . . . so maybe it was a business decision, but honestly it probably was just because sometimes you have to enjoy life.

IMO

BC

P.S.   I really don't want square.  It sounds like a good idea, but clients crop and move stuff around too much anyway.  I really don't want to see a planned vertical turned into a cropped horizontal or the opposite.

[robert zimmerman]

But your statement that you can't focus manually without using f/11 does not match my personal experience.

No need to split hairs here because we're totally different in what we do and how we do it, but I said "anything is possible".
The Intuition remark I stand by, because I'm talking about *me*, not you.

I'll rephrase: I have no desire to manual focus, wide open on a grainy focusing screen with a peeping red dot, when a client is on set, with the main objective of not getting fisted for working with a photographer that's more interested in bragging rights than getting the job done. I'm not afraid to try and get interesting shots, but the p1 cam sucks at manual focussing, IMO.
The screen is too grainy to *see* critical focus, that's why they put the peeping red dot in there.

BTW, I do manual focus quite a bit, but I choose to do it with some DOF with the p1, or with a Pentax 67II/Mamiya RZ which were designed for it and give a better look for that kind of stuff.

[robert zimmerman]

I guess with Leica the thought is to move bodies and put people in their cars, I mean cameras and get people out there actually producing work with their cameras.

Then like me you go hmm, I'd like an autofocus 120, you buy it, then you go hmm, I'd like an 70 with a leaf shutter and you . . .

well you get the idea.

IMO

BC

Interesting side note on Leica's thought process: I know several fashion photographers here in Europe that use Leica S cams for commissioned work.
http://s-league.net/ceemes/en/home.html
The way it works: Leica will loan you an S system (Cam, lens, batteries, etc.) for a job, for free, if you credit them (you have to be a working professional, apply and be accepted). That's quite a statement IMO about how and what a company thinks about photography and who they make their equipment for.

[MrSmith]

phase do something similar, If you are a world renowned trendy NY artist using the medium of photography phase will give you their latest backs/cameras/lenses for free for months at a time. Even if you are rich and famous enough to afford the kit yourself.
(Not rumour or supposition but I signed an NDA so can't name names)

[robert zimmerman]

phase do something similar, If you are a world renowned trendy NY artist using the medium of photography phase will give you their latest backs/cameras/lenses for free for months at a time. Even if you are rich and famous enough to afford the kit yourself.
(Not rumour or supposition but I signed an NDA so can't name names)

World renowned isn't a prerequisite here – just have to be a serious photographer. That website doesn't show everything, I know several photographers who have used the S for all kinds of projects.  

p.s.: not trying to promote Leica here, just wanted to mention it, fwiw…

p.s.p.s.:
actually, you may have misunderstood me. I know all camera companies work with names to promote.
I mentioned this because I know several blokes, just working dudes like me, and they use the S for projects and commissions. Not big dogs in NY/LA/London.

[telyt]

But the general sentiment in the forum regarding this topic is that Leica has done something unprecedented, which simply isn't true. One of the main reasons I went with Phamiya (And Nikon when I moved to 35mm digital) is the ability to use legacy AF lenses for not much.

IDK about general sentiment but as far as I'm concerned it isn't that it's a new idea, but that it's a smart idea.

[robert zimmerman]

smart, crazy, lucky, whatever...it worked.
it took some balls to kill the R system and legacy R lenses and build something new (and 10x more expensive).
afaik there's no thinner line between smart and dead than in the camera making business. ask contax - the smartest/deadest of them all.

[synn]

ask contax

Smart engineers, stupid management.

[robert zimmerman]

you know briese lighting equipment? i do, the company is in hamburg - i use their studos and i've talked to mr. briese a few times. pretty successful lighting company. world wide.
why? because the guy is a fanatic about lighting equipment. he didn't make that stuff for me or you or mario testino, he made it all for himself. he thought it up and made it because no one else did and he wanted the best light possible.
hensel, profoto, bowens, etc. it's pretty much all the same. and this guy said, bullshit, i can make it 10 times better than this crap. and he did it.
i'm not saying profoto isn't good, i like it and use it. but mr. briese wouldn't use it for lighting his closet.

management? his wife answers the phone when you call. ask her something and she'll say: 'just a second' (covers the phone) "hans werner (that' his name), there's a young man who wants to know..." and then she puts you through to the man.

i think leica has that same dna. they just make seriously good equipment as best they can, because that's what they love to do. period.

p.s.: just to come full circle, with p1 it feels different. They feel more like a tech company. there's a dedication there, but it feels very different. the p1 camera for example, can you imagine a leica logo on it? no way, not good enough. it's not physical perfection. leica is tactile, when you handle one you feel like you're holding something special, and that says a lot to me about a company. i'm not dissing phase, i own their equipment and i enjoy using it. but they need to cut to the chase and make a statement with their next camera. it needs to say "this is as good as it gets" when you pick it up, not "this feels like 2002" wrapped in plastic.

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

I would suggest it is both a new idea and a smart idea. The Leica can adapt to both Hasselblad H and Contax lenses with full automatic function. So they deliver a nice body for Contax users like BC and also grant owners a wide selection of lenses, which is especially smart as it seems to take some time for Leica to develop a full line lenses.

For instance, it is not possible to mount a Canon lens on a Nikon, it would not focus at infinity. Leica made the S2 with short enough flange distance so they could adapt a wide set of lenses. A bit of thinking out of the box, and also pretty smart.

Best regards
Erik

IDK about general sentiment but as far as I'm concerned it isn't that it's a new idea, but that it's a smart idea.

[JV]

The strategy obviously works!  

Here is another testimony of somebody who switched to Leica keeping his Contax lenses:
http://blog.leica-camera.com/photographers/interviews/mark-mann-creating-timeless-portraiture/

[telyt]

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-news/2014/03/credit-for-the-leica-s/?utm_source=20140318en&utm_medium=E-Mail

Could be there's a new Leica S series on the way.

Seems likely.

[bcooter]

The strategy obviously works!  

Here is another testimony of somebody who switched to Leica keeping his Contax lenses:

Leica has been busy on lenses, with a new 45mm and in the cinema world producing PL mounts as faster than most can keep up.

The still lenses aren't crazy priced but they're far from cheap, the movie lenses, well, you need to rent or go into the desert and dig up those 24 bars of gold your grandfather buried in the 70's.

I have a feeling, that Leica is in it for the long haul, but who knows?   At least they have weathered the film to digital storm, kept profitable and seem to be interested in new product.

They aren't everyone's cup of tea, but honestly out of the cameras I use and the cameras I enjoy, nothing is more fun than my m-8, nothing to me looks more unique in camera and file, nothing I use could be at times more frustrating.

The m8 compared to the S is like a old restored truck, next to a new Land Rover.

I think Leicas are special and I also think that whether you use a camera for your living or for pleasure, there is nothing wrong with using something that makes you smile.

IMO

BC

[JohnBrew]

I think the fact that Leica is offering a $5K rebate for an SLR trade-in (how about an old Pentax film body?) on the updated S is a strong indication something new is in the pipeline. Whether it will use an existing sensor or an entirely new design is the question. Couldn't agree more with BC about the M8.

[eronald]

I think the fact that Leica is offering a $5K rebate for an SLR trade-in (how about an old Pentax film body?) on the updated S is a strong indication something new is in the pipeline. Whether it will use an existing sensor or an entirely new design is the question. Couldn't agree more with BC about the M8.

Yeah, their trade in is about as much as the used Pentax digital MF body value. Very fair - ideal for people wanting to sell their Pentax 645D

What disturbs me in this discussion is that essentially there is no *technical* difference between the 645D and the S2.

Kudos to Leica for opting out of the huge price cartel and making a camera that works almost like an SLR, but if there is to be hope for MF we still need some more realistically priced options.

Edmund

[bcooter]

Your right and everyone would like a 645 d or d2 at under 10 grand with a large lens set that didn't give buyers remorse.

The problem is in cameraland, there is always a catch.

The Pentax, good jpegs, great screen, good viewfinder, legacy lenses.   Also small buffer, limited and expensive newer lenses, doesn't really tether that well and unless you want to search out older lenses and find the right combination, at the end of the day you don't save huge with Pentax newer lenses.  The biggest issue with Pentax is transparency.  All of their plans seem to come at a rumor bases.

Last year I spoke to the largest specialty Pentax dealer in the East Coast and he was selling off all his 645's at a discount, saying Pentax will move to full frame 35mm.  We'll so far that didn't happen and I don't think Pentax cares that much about professionals. That's kind of a shame because most people rave about the pentax aps cameras, but all of this is just a guess.

I assume they built the 645d for the Japanese market that shoots scenics and flowers and previously did so with film.  For them, the 645d was perfect, but it never seemed that Pentax ever planned on making a large worldwide push.  

You see this with all makers, searching out that niche that they can exploit.   The new phase cmos camera seems to be a push towards wedding and event photographers.   Personally I assume that shipped has sailed to high end 35mm cameras, or even the 5d2 set, but Phase is smart and that seems to be a market they found open for medium format, though at $35,000 I have to wonder.

Basically in all things in life, there really is no free lunch.

IMO

BC

[Manoli]

Yeah, their trade in is about as much as the used Pentax digital MF body value. Very fair - ideal for people wanting to sell their Pentax 645D

The offer is actually for either a MF or SLR . Trade in an old D200 and then sell the Pentax ! Leica may well surprise a lot of people, both on the 'S' front .. and the M.