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Author Topic: Can you see a difference in small prints between an MFDB and a DSLR?  (Read 79574 times)

Fine_Art

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Re: Can you see a difference in small prints between an MFDB and a DSLR?
« Reply #260 on: March 12, 2014, 02:04:19 pm »

I find this smug and condescending comment directed to Erik Kaffer inappropriate for collegiality and good taste on the forum. Erik is a well respected forum member who has an engineering background and is an inveterate experimenter, and I have learned much from his posts and website and the discussion they engender. He brings scientific rigor to his analyses. One reason for requesting raw files is to minimize the variables that are inherent in rendered images (demosaicing, sharpening, noise reduction, etc.) Synn mocks Eric for wanting raw images, yet his own analysis of some of Erik's raw images demonstrate why raw images are necessary for proper evaluation.

Synn apparently considers him self to be a great artist who can get the most from his MFDB equipment. I've looked at his images on his web site and he does good work, but he is no Ansel Adams or Yousuf Karsh. I have seen similar quality work shown by talented amateurs at my local camera club. (I can't wait for him to challenge me to show my own images, but that is not the point. Does an art critic need to have painted on the level of Monet?)

The automobile comparison is in poor taste and implies that Erik doesn't know what he is doing. However, the comparison is appropriate in one way: a Ferrari is not a very practical car. It is temperamental, uncomfortable, and high maintenance as well as expensive. It does make a statement by rich car aficionados. The same qualities might also apply to MFDB setups. Artistic merit can be judged at relatively low resolution and one does not have to have MFDB setups to achieve artistic merit. Many of Ansel's iconic images are not all that sharp by modern standards.

Bill

It was clear when he presented the MFDB as a small soft image relative to the Nikon and Canon shots of the model. It was a con. Of course the overriding factor on large files downsampled to about 1MP is going to be the processing.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Can you see a difference in small prints between an MFDB and a DSLR?
« Reply #261 on: March 12, 2014, 03:04:32 pm »

Hi Bill,

Your kind words are much appreciated.

Best regards
Erik

I find this smug and condescending comment directed to Erik Kaffer inappropriate for collegiality and good taste on the forum. Erik is a well respected forum member who has an engineering background and is an inveterate experimenter, and I have learned much from his posts and website and the discussion they engender. He brings scientific rigor to his analyses. One reason for requesting raw files is to minimize the variables that are inherent in rendered images (demosaicing, sharpening, noise reduction, etc.) Synn mocks Eric for wanting raw images, yet his own analysis of some of Erik's raw images demonstrate why raw images are necessary for proper evaluation.

Synn apparently considers him self to be a great artist who can get the most from his MFDB equipment. I've looked at his images on his web site and he does good work, but he is no Ansel Adams or Yousuf Karsh. I have seen similar quality work shown by talented amateurs at my local camera club. (I can't wait for him to challenge me to show my own images, but that is not the point. Does an art critic need to have painted on the level of Monet?)

The automobile comparison is in poor taste and implies that Erik doesn't know what he is doing. However, the comparison is appropriate in one way: a Ferrari is not a very practical car. It is temperamental, uncomfortable, and high maintenance as well as expensive. It does make a statement by rich car aficionados. The same qualities might also apply to MFDB setups. Artistic merit can be judged at relatively low resolution and one does not have to have MFDB setups to achieve artistic merit. Many of Ansel's iconic images are not all that sharp by modern standards.

Bill
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pedro39photo

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Re: Can you see a difference in small prints between an MFDB and a DSLR?
« Reply #262 on: March 12, 2014, 03:10:05 pm »

i don´t understand this wars... 35mm vs DMF the mediums are so different.
I love DMF, but i dont use it for events i use my 35mm canon.
Just composing in big viewfinder 645 camera its a different experience, a joy.
DMF and 35mm are different  like sport cars vs station wagons ??? its silly compare...    
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kencameron

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Re: Can you see a difference in small prints between an MFDB and a DSLR?
« Reply #263 on: March 12, 2014, 04:41:41 pm »

"It's not just that my equipment is better than yours - I am better than you". One of the low points to which DMF and other equipment discussions unfortunately sometimes descend. There are of course equivalents on the other side of the argument. "More money than sense". Those taking a dig at Eric K should remind themselves that this has particularly low credibility to forum regulars because Eric himself is always courteous and unfailingly plays the ball and not the man.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2014, 04:47:13 pm by kencameron »
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Ken Cameron

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Re: Can you see a difference in small prints between an MFDB and a DSLR?
« Reply #264 on: March 12, 2014, 05:51:17 pm »

DMF and 35mm are different like sport cars vs station wagons ??? its silly compare...    
That analogy works for me -- these days I am just enjoying my MFT motorbike.
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EricWHiss

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Re: Can you see a difference in small prints between an MFDB and a DSLR?
« Reply #265 on: March 12, 2014, 08:10:01 pm »

Yes, they are different and not just in the files but in the work flow.  Probably most MFDB users also have a DSLR and can choose which tool for the job.  I wouldn't be surprised if a number of them also shoot film on occasion.   

So many forums used to be filled with Mac vs. PC arguments and now we get the endless is the MFDB really better.  I'll admit that I've been frustrated by these kinds of discussions because they invariably end with only a sharpness pixel peek, but I would still shoot MF even just for the viewfinder which I find useful for composition.  None of the comparisons value composition so things like finders and ergonomics get overlooked.  The look and feel of the different formats IS visible just as the different characteristics of individual lenses can be. 

I have to stand up for Synn as I think he has been a valuable contributor to the forum, one who shoots with both formats and doesn't seem to have a bias and calls things as he sees them.
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Re: Can you see a difference in small prints between an MFDB and a DSLR?
« Reply #266 on: March 12, 2014, 10:13:07 pm »

(I have to stand up for Synn as) I think he has been a valuable contributor to the forum, one who shoots with both formats and doesn't seem to have a bias and calls things as he sees them.
Absolutely - and clearly someone with real expertise. What is in question is simply one thing he wrote.
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Ken Cameron

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Re: Can you see a difference in small prints between an MFDB and a DSLR?
« Reply #267 on: March 12, 2014, 10:52:47 pm »

I have to stand up for Synn as I think he has been a valuable contributor to the forum, one who shoots with both formats and doesn't seem to have a bias and calls things as he sees them.

IF, you believe that , I really can't see on what basis you can attack Erik who has been all that and more. And no, it's not just Synn,  it's you too. Some of your posts were not only condescending and patronising in the extreme but equally antagonistic and insulting. It's a reflection on Erik that he showed such restraint.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2014, 11:03:19 pm by Manoli »
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synn

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Re: Can you see a difference in small prints between an MFDB and a DSLR?
« Reply #268 on: March 12, 2014, 11:16:32 pm »

My problem is with people who claim to be scientifically inclined doing all sorts of tests with flawed methodology and then extrapolate those results as if this is what EVERY MF shooter who has ever shot with MF will achieve. Sorry, I disagree completely because my personal experience and anecdotal evidence from my peers say otherwise.

My problem is also with the implication that the norm is that people who look at A2 size prints from MF and 35mm cameras are looking at it with a 5x loupe at pixel level. Sorry, no one except a handful of people on this forum do that in real life.

People who look at my prints (Or Eric Hiss' prints as he explained) look at them at proper viewing distance and their impressions of the print are formed not only by the resolution, but also the color reproduction, micro and macro contrast, tonality, transition from in-focus to out of focus areas and many such factors. Several of which cannot be measured with graphs and charts. This is something the science brigade repeatedly fails to understand and as an artist who actually shows his prints to people, it's sort of infuriating to keep reading this sort of threads.

To answer a question from Erik; yes, I have shown 12x15 prints from 35mm and MF to several people in real life. All of them knew which were the MF pictures were and not one of them possessed a 5x loupe.

Lastly, one of the reasons many of us shoot MF (As I have explained 9535736 times before) has nothing to do with any of this. It's called user experience and there does not exist a single lab that can measure than and put it into numbers.

This is seriously the last post I want to make on this topic.  Seriously, people. Go shoot with what you like. Good photographs can be made in the time that's being wasted on these comparisons.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2014, 11:18:29 pm by synn »
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Gigi

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Re: Can you see a difference in small prints between an MFDB and a DSLR?
« Reply #269 on: March 12, 2014, 11:20:58 pm »

IF, you believe that , I really can't see on what basis you can attack Erik who has been all that and more. And no, it's not just Synn,  it's you too. Some of your posts were not only condescending and patronising in the extreme but equally antagonistic and insulting. It's a reflection on Erik that he showed such restraint.

Oh dear… having stayed out of this thread for reasons of discretion, well, forgive the intrusion. I agree with Synn's point that he raises above. The reason for the heated discussion is that someone is focusing on a part of the problem/project and there is a stubbornness in heeding the insights or advice of others. IMHO, there is photography (the art), then behind that is the technique to make the art (the practice), behind the technique is the equipment. The goal for me is the photograph, the rest of the process and equipment is in service to that goal.

We have had a long discussion (and a partial one at that) on one aspect of the process, and a flawed one at that (as has been pointed out several times). The question is a valid one, but the lack of resolution, or willingness to accept insights from others, has been exasperating. Sorry to offend, but there it is.

Like others, I recommend to the OP that he spend more time studying photographs by the masters, more time making prints, learning how to develop a critical stance and apply judgment to his own work. And then many of the questions raised will answer themselves. Its not that hard - make the prints, learn the discipline, study and do the work. Just like other fields.

« Last Edit: March 12, 2014, 11:22:57 pm by Geoffreyg »
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Re: Can you see a difference in small prints between an MFDB and a DSLR?
« Reply #270 on: March 13, 2014, 01:34:34 am »

Hi,

The question was very simple: "Can you see a difference in small prints between an MFDB and a DSLR?".

It is a very simple question with two possible answers, either "yes" or "no".

Just to make it clear, "art" is not involved. The question is very easy to answer, two experiments that can easily be done:

1) Shoot a subject with an MFDB and a DSLR, put them trough same processing and print in your selected size. See if you can see the difference.

2) Assuming we compare 39MP and 24 MP as I did. Open the 39 MP image in PS and print it, downscale it to 78% and upsize to 128% and print it in the same format. Can you see a difference?

Minimal right brain activity. No creativity involved. If you cannot see a difference you just saved 10-20k.

If you are considering buying MF it is a bit of sanity check.

I don't understand why artist cannot answer a simple technical question. Some photographers did answer in a civilised manner. One stated he can seen advantages of Technical cameras with wide angles even in small prints. Some of the responses were negative. It seems that something like 20" and up is needed for a for significant visual difference. Some variation in responses some responses may have been 17" on short side and up.

Best regards
Erik

« Last Edit: March 13, 2014, 02:03:58 am by ErikKaffehr »
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synn

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Re: Can you see a difference in small prints between an MFDB and a DSLR?
« Reply #271 on: March 13, 2014, 01:50:24 am »

Hi,

The question was very simple: "Can you see a difference in small prints between an MFDB and a DSLR?".

It is a very simple question with two possible answers, either "yes" or "no".



umm... no.
This is exactly what we have been trying to tell you for ages now and something that you refuse to understand for some reason.

Your experiments and train of thought perfectly answers the question "Is it possible to make an MF file and a 35mm file look close enough that it's nearly impossible to tell them apart when printed in A2 size"? Your experiments answer it with a resounding "Yes".

However, in the real world, most prints are made by artists. Not test chart shooters. Lots of creativity involved. And those prints are judged based on a lot of factors which I listed in the previous post (I really dont want to type them out again). A person with good artistic vision and the right technical skills to support it can certainly create A2 MF prints of their creative vision that can be distinguished from a 35mm execution of the same.

Short version: The right person can make a small print from an MF camera stand out from a small print from a 35mm camera. Technical aspects such as resolution is only one part of why he is able to do so. There are so many creative variables involved that can and will change form frame to frame that will make this possible.

Now we can go around in circles for another 10 pages or you could try opening your eyes a bit.  Go ahead and choose.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Can you see a difference in small prints between an MFDB and a DSLR?
« Reply #272 on: March 13, 2014, 02:10:13 am »

Hi Synn,

I appreciate that kind of answer.

Best regards
Erik

umm... no.
This is exactly what we have been trying to tell you for ages now and something that you refuse to understand for some reason.

Your experiments and train of thought perfectly answers the question "Is it possible to make an MF file and a 35mm file look close enough that it's nearly impossible to tell them apart when printed in A2 size"? Your experiments answer it with a resounding "Yes".

However, in the real world, most prints are made by artists. Not test chart shooters. Lots of creativity involved. And those prints are judged based on a lot of factors which I listed in the previous post (I really dont want to type them out again). A person with good artistic vision and the right technical skills to support it can certainly create A2 MF prints of their creative vision that can be distinguished from a 35mm execution of the same.

Short version: The right person can make a small print from an MF camera stand out from a small print from a 35mm camera. Technical aspects such as resolution is only one part of why he is able to do so. There are so many creative variables involved that can and will change form frame to frame that will make this possible.

Now we can go around in circles for another 10 pages or you could try opening your eyes a bit.  Go ahead and choose.
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Gigi

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Re: Can you see a difference in small prints between an MFDB and a DSLR?
« Reply #273 on: March 13, 2014, 06:28:27 am »

Sorry to extend the conversation - but lets try. But try as we might, it depends on your standards, what you are shooting, and how you wish to judge. Some personal observation on this : I've been given the opportunity to try a Leica Monochrome. It has an 18mp CCD sensor, which is generally understood to be very much at the top of the smaller cameras, equal more or less to the top DSLRs (see Sean Reid's reviews for more on this). Its CCD sensor is used to only give BW information. I have not compared it to a D800 tho, but rather used it as a small camera and tried shooting very demanding architectural and landscape scenes. The local Leica dealer calls these scenes torture tests, so the gear gets a workout. The lenses used were the 21 SE, the 28 2.8 Asph, and a 50 'cron.

Up to about 13x19 inches, the MM results looks as good as MFDB (Leaf 33 mp). Everything is there and super crisp. The standard used is looking at a print for absolute detail at about 10" (25 cm) viewing distance. The prints are gorgeous.

When taken up to 17x22, things starts to change. Here's where its tricky: for the MM, if the lens is a really good one, the shooting technique is good, and full frame, the MM holds up reasonably well. If any of those factors slip, well, you can see it. If all is good, then the results are good, very good, but… you can see a difference between the MM and MFDB at this size. At first, its not so apparent, but put the prints side by side, and one is very very nice and the other just pops. When shooting landscape (leaves, very fine texture), for example, the difference is there and it is visible, not just to me, but to others. The MFDB simply renders at 17x22 with more detail. However, if the subject is more dramatic, then the difference between the two is less obvious - that is, it is still there, but it is not so apparent. So for me, 17x22 is the upper limit for the smaller camera to make really really, blow you away, crisp results. Again, this is with prints viewed at very close distances. If you made bigger prints, the viewing distance should increase as well, and its likely larger prints would still captivate, as many others have reported.  

These results were generally confirmed in observation with friends. I think if you could see the prints you'd agree. Whether you think its a critical difference - well, now we are back to art….However, these results don't necessarily match what others have reported, who say they take MM prints up to larger sizes with great success. I believe the print is the ultimate way to judge, and haven't seen their work in person. Its possible they get better results. Perhaps their trade craft is better, or have better up-rezzing techniques (which I don't use). I use only modest sharpening (LR for the MM, C1 for the Leaf). Maybe C1 is better for the MM, I don't know.

Its also possible they may apply different standards. I'm looking for a very high level of definition, as if these were 4x5 film replacements. That's a ridiculous standard, but one which, with today's technology, is practically achievable, and happily so. Not to say these are the same as 4x5, but rather to give an overall sense of the standards being used.

Other DSLR's are likely to get different results than the MM.

Two other things - where the MM really shines over MFDB is in low light and high ISO. It can hold its quality levels at 2500 ISO very easily, something MFDB can't. So handholding, low light, and small size have their place. Also, the Leaf back is a 33mp back,a few years old. A higher resolution back would permit more cropping (and still hold the quality), or much larger prints with no loss of refinement. The 33mp back has its virtues, tho, especially for use with tech cameras, or at higher f-stops, as diffraction is not so pressing an issue for the 33mp back with its larger pixels.  

Hope this helps.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2014, 10:32:08 pm by Geoffreyg »
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Re: Can you see a difference in small prints between an MFDB and a DSLR?
« Reply #274 on: March 13, 2014, 07:39:01 am »

I've used an MM (one of the better smaller cameras) to shoot very demanding architectural and landscape scenes, in high detail. The local Leica dealer calls these scenes  torture tests, so the gear gets a workout.

Geoffrey,

A well reasoned post, but what is an MM camera?

Bill
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Torbjörn Tapani

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Re:
« Reply #275 on: March 13, 2014, 08:07:14 am »

He mentions the local Leica dealer so I read it as the Leica M Monochrome.
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hjulenissen

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Re: Can you see a difference in small prints between an MFDB and a DSLR?
« Reply #276 on: March 13, 2014, 08:17:59 am »

Like others, I recommend to the OP that he spend more time studying photographs by the masters, more time making prints, learning how to develop a critical stance and apply judgment to his own work. And then many of the questions raised will answer themselves. Its not that hard - make the prints, learn the discipline, study and do the work. Just like other fields.
I would agree that a critical stance is an important skill. People are seemingly quite irrational, and we will tend to defend our views, our profession, our purchasing habits etc. Being able to make a judgement on what matters to me and what I want to do can mean hours and money spent wisely vs not so wisely.

This discussion seems to head in a classic "objectivist" vs "subjectivist", "rationalist" vs "sensualist", "knowing" vs "believing", "engineer" vs "artist" debate. Such debates never have a happy ending where people shake hands or anyone ever changing their opinion.

-h
« Last Edit: March 13, 2014, 08:28:15 am by hjulenissen »
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Ken R

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Re: Can you see a difference in small prints between an MFDB and a DSLR?
« Reply #277 on: March 13, 2014, 08:43:59 am »

Hi,

The question was very simple: "Can you see a difference in small prints between an MFDB and a DSLR?".

It is a very simple question with two possible answers, either "yes" or "no".

Just to make it clear, "art" is not involved. The question is very easy to answer, two experiments that can easily be done:

1) Shoot a subject with an MFDB and a DSLR, put them trough same processing and print in your selected size. See if you can see the difference.

2) Assuming we compare 39MP and 24 MP as I did. Open the 39 MP image in PS and print it, downscale it to 78% and upsize to 128% and print it in the same format. Can you see a difference?

Minimal right brain activity. No creativity involved. If you cannot see a difference you just saved 10-20k.

If you are considering buying MF it is a bit of sanity check.

I don't understand why artist cannot answer a simple technical question. Some photographers did answer in a civilised manner. One stated he can seen advantages of Technical cameras with wide angles even in small prints. Some of the responses were negative. It seems that something like 20" and up is needed for a for significant visual difference. Some variation in responses some responses may have been 17" on short side and up.

Best regards
Erik



It's not that simple.

The obvious answer is No. You probably will not a see a difference in small prints. Heck. In small prints it is probably hard to impossible to tell apart a 12MP file from a 5D from a 22MP from a 5D3.

BUT, yeah I know here comes the long explanation, There is another question. Would you see a difference in regards to what image quality aspect? Resolution? Color? In what type of shot? Subject? Yes, subject does matter. With what lens? Wide Angle? Macro? Heck, then again, if you need to get into really extensive details to find out then the difference (between the different MP cameras) in small prints is really minimal. 

Given equals (subject, composition, distance to subject, light, Post-Processing to normalize any color differences etc) it is hard to spot a difference in small prints other than differences in regards to optics (lens used) and format (sensor size and pixel count) which will most evidently show themselves in different out of focus rendering (bokeh) and perceived "focus falloff" from the focus plane.

In respect to Erik. Someone with almost 7,000 posts has bound to have taken, and keep taking, a LOT of heat every once in a while. It's the nature of the forum biz. :D
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Can you see a difference in small prints between an MFDB and a DSLR?
« Reply #278 on: March 13, 2014, 02:23:25 pm »

Ken and Geoff,

Thanks for your observations. They are pretty much consistent with what I see. Little difference up to A2 (17" width) and more at larger sizes.

The reason I started the thread was this question: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=87606.msg713822#msg713822 which I felt deserved a good answer.

I have learned a lot from the discussion, foremost from Bart van der Wolf's demo of advanced processing.

Best regards
Erik


It's not that simple.

The obvious answer is No. You probably will not a see a difference in small prints. Heck. In small prints it is probably hard to impossible to tell apart a 12MP file from a 5D from a 22MP from a 5D3.

BUT, yeah I know here comes the long explanation, There is another question. Would you see a difference in regards to what image quality aspect? Resolution? Color? In what type of shot? Subject? Yes, subject does matter. With what lens? Wide Angle? Macro? Heck, then again, if you need to get into really extensive details to find out then the difference (between the different MP cameras) in small prints is really minimal. 

Given equals (subject, composition, distance to subject, light, Post-Processing to normalize any color differences etc) it is hard to spot a difference in small prints other than differences in regards to optics (lens used) and format (sensor size and pixel count) which will most evidently show themselves in different out of focus rendering (bokeh) and perceived "focus falloff" from the focus plane.

In respect to Erik. Someone with almost 7,000 posts has bound to have taken, and keep taking, a LOT of heat every once in a while. It's the nature of the forum biz. :D
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jerome_m

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Re: Can you see a difference in small prints between an MFDB and a DSLR?
« Reply #279 on: March 13, 2014, 02:37:14 pm »

However, in the real world, most prints are made by artists. Not test chart shooters. Lots of creativity involved. And those prints are judged based on a lot of factors which I listed in the previous post (I really dont want to type them out again). A person with good artistic vision and the right technical skills to support it can certainly create A2 MF prints of their creative vision that can be distinguished from a 35mm execution of the same.

Short version: The right person can make a small print from an MF camera stand out from a small print from a 35mm camera. Technical aspects such as resolution is only one part of why he is able to do so. There are so many creative variables involved that can and will change form frame to frame that will make this possible.

Actually, it is not that simple. You presented yourself some images taken with MF and 24x36 cameras for us to judge skin tones, and the public was not able to tell which was which. More recently, at page 8 of this thread, Paul Ross Jones asked us to find the 4 shots done with the P65 on his home page:
http://paulrossjones.com/NEW-WORK/1/thumbs-caption/ and nobody managed. I was actually the only person to attempt the challenge and I failed.
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