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Author Topic: D4S ….can see in the dark!  (Read 13442 times)

Theodoros

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D4S ….can see in the dark!
« on: February 25, 2014, 05:00:30 am »

The D4 was fully capable to deliver clean images for large prints up to 6400 Iso… D4S goes a step further… Is there need for that much?

http://nikonrumors.com/2014/02/24/nikon-d4s-officially-announced.aspx/
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Petrus

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Re: D4S ….can see in the dark!
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2014, 07:43:42 am »

Need and need, of course the better and cleaner, the better! Is there an ethical reason why high ISOs have to stay low quality? It would be ideal if the quality stayed the same from 1 ISO to Zillion ISO. One less thing to worry about, always just use the optimum aperture and shutter speed.
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jjj

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Re: D4S ….can see in the dark!
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2014, 08:09:28 am »

Yup. I want it.
Not having to shoot people at 1/3 sec/wide open and handheld is a good thing in my books.
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Rob C

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Re: D4S ….can see in the dark!
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2014, 09:22:58 am »

Yup. I want it.
Not having to shoot people at 1/3 sec/wide open and handheld is a good thing in my books.


Grays of Westminster sent me the circular today; I don't need it but if I did, I'd buy it.

Trouble is, as long as digital remains my only viable photographic option for so many logistical and regional reasons, if anything, I feel more drawn to leaving Nikon in favour of Canon and those 17mm and 24mm tilter/shifters! I feel they would lend themelves to new directions for commercial photography with which Nikon doesn't - so far - seems able to compete.

But I pretty much accept that my commercial life has now passed, so I feel no compulsion to do anything photographic with my pennies. Enough junk is enough junk. I look at what I do and I could probably do it with most anything, never mind my D700 which, really, is already overkill. It probably is for all of the non-pros on LuLa, but then admitting that would kill the acquisitive fun, wouldn't it?

;-)

Rob C

D White

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Re: D4S ….can see in the dark!
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2014, 10:47:08 am »

For most current D4 users, it is likely not worth the expense to upgrade to the D4s, but perhaps a good time for any one who was considering their first D4. They can either get the latest or have more pre owned options to pick from.

Regards
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NancyP

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Re: D4S ….can see in the dark!
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2014, 11:07:14 am »

BFD! I can see in the dark!  ;D   The D4s may "see in the dark", but I daresay that there are dedicated low-light cameras out there that can do better - but aren't hooked up to a Nikon interface.
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jjj

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Re: D4S ….can see in the dark!
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2014, 11:18:02 am »

BFD! I can see in the dark!  ;D   The D4s may "see in the dark", but I daresay that there are dedicated low-light cameras out there that can do better - but aren't hooked up to a Nikon interface.
Really, any that come with high quality full spectrum, full frame [35mm] imaging? And that can also take a huge variety of photographic lenses?
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Vladimirovich

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Re: D4S ….can see in the dark!
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2014, 11:27:45 am »

> D4S ….can see in the dark!

I doubt that it can... Canon 6D has one primitive central AF point that can focus @ -3EV w/o focus assist lamp, Panasonic GH4 (or any latest gen of m43 cameras) can focus @ -4EV in any point of the frame w/o a focus assist lamp and w/o any BF/FF with AF lenses... can D4s focus @ -5EV ? now where D4s can focus it will focus fast - but not in the dark, do not mix high ISO capability w/ AF system ability to do it in the real dark situation... Nikon official spec state that it can only focus @ -1 to +19 EV.... that is 3 EV lighter illumination than some m43 camera that costs $500...

Canon 6D :

Center AF Point: EV -3 to 18
Other AF points: EV +0.5 to 18
Metering Range EV 1-20

Nikon D4s

AF : -1 to +19 EV (points not specified)
Spot metering: 2 to 20 EV
Matrix or center-weighted metering: -1 to 20 EV

Panasonic GX1

http://www.panasonic.com/us/consumer/cameras-camcorders/compact-system-cameras-ilc/dmc-gx7sbody.specs.html

AF detective range EV -4 - 18
Metering range    EV 0 - 18


dSLRs PDAF tracking speed is the last bastion... but focusing in the dark ? not anymore and it is for a long time already
« Last Edit: February 25, 2014, 11:45:23 am by Vladimirovich »
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Paul2660

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Re: D4S ….can see in the dark!
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2014, 12:09:26 pm »

Current Nikon Live View (D4 and D800e) in low light is pretty much worthless to me.  Way too much noise is not being buffered out.  Where as if you are attempting to focus on the moon at night, it's great.  Unless Nikon added a totally new AF engine to the D4s, I doubt it will handle low light AF any better than the D800 or D4, which is pretty hit and miss.  I only mention Live view here, as I feel that a future design may find a way to incorporate the Live view to assist with AF even more.  Point is fact is how well the Live View that the IQ250 has at night, i.e. total darkness.

One of the more impressive feats of the IQ250 CMOS is that it can be used in total darkness and the live view basically does become a night vision device.  Not how this is done, but the Alpa review of it was pretty impressive.  You can also assume that if Sony ever took this type of design to a 35mm camera the AF may be able to focus in total dark as the Live seems to be able to display the image as in daylight.  (at least on the IQ250).

As for the iso 400K, well, I will wait to see just how it looks, I am not expecting too much.

Paul C.
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Theodoros

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Re: D4S ….can see in the dark!
« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2014, 05:00:21 pm »

I don't think that Nikon ever intended to compete with any of the cameras described above with their D4… Clearly with D4S Nikon is trying to achieve two goals:

1. To get a clear advantage over 1DX for the action professional market… like they did with D3S …and
2. To expand the use of their superb 16mp sensor (but with previous D4 sensor abilities) on lower level bodies, without a risk of D4 being cannibalised, (a kind of D3S/D700 relationship) thus filling the gap that D700's discontinuation left "orphan" in their line.

I believe that a D800s (or H, or whatever) is at large… wise move, it will add many sales to their FF line and put direct competition under pressure.  ;)
« Last Edit: February 26, 2014, 04:50:06 pm by T.Dascalos »
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Vladimirovich

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Re: D4S ….can see in the dark!
« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2014, 05:41:07 pm »

I don't think that Nikon ever intended to compete with any of the cameras described above with the D4…

that was about the line "can see in the dark", not about the competition of course... no, it is not, it was a misguiding statement... clearly the AF system that has spec 3 stops from what the current state of art in the consumer level camera has can't be called like that... that's it... otherwise it is a fine camera to shoot moving targets under a good light, that what it is.

 
« Last Edit: February 25, 2014, 05:43:26 pm by Vladimirovich »
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Vladimirovich

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Re: D4S ….can see in the dark!
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2014, 05:46:25 pm »

1. To get a clear advantage over 1DX for the action professional market… like they did with D3S …and

I did not hear that D4 had any advantage over 1Dx and D4s being an inremental camera - what is that "clear" advantage and where exactly ?
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Theodoros

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Re: D4S ….can see in the dark!
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2014, 06:17:42 pm »

I did not hear that D4 had any advantage over 1Dx and D4s being an inremental camera - what is that "clear" advantage and where exactly ?
About a stop (or more?) advantage in low light? …that's a huge advantage for a pro. One can use a 300mmf4 handheld instead of a 300 f2.8, or shoot the same exposure having less noise, or shoot at higher speed, or use TC-14Eii and TC-20Eiii along with the 300f2.8 and forget about extra focal lengths, extra weight, extra space …and extra money. A stop better high Iso, is for action and wild life photographers a world apart… (current) 1DX, doesn't stand a chance to compete with D4S… Canon has to react soon and it should be a better reaction than when D3s appeared (and Nikon got the lead from their hands).  :)
In 2004 Olympics it was all white lenses…, in 2008 it was majority white lenses, in 2012 it was slight advantage to black… in 2016, if things stand on the previous analogy, it will be a good black majority.  ;)
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robdickinson

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Re: D4S ….can see in the dark!
« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2014, 06:50:23 pm »

The ISO talk is nonsense. The sample images are if anything worse than the D4, just with heavier noise reductions. Marketing hyperbole.

Gigabit, 1Dx had already.

11fps? 1Dx does 14.

And why do they insist on those stupid XQD cards forcing owners to buy into an expensive new memory card format along side CF.

Nikon welcome to 2012. :D

I'm sure its a decent camera but no huge shake on the D4.
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robdickinson

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uaiomex

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Re: D4S ….can see in the dark!
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2014, 07:55:22 pm »

I've seen some posts in fora from people complaining that now the MP race is over (?), manufacturers got involved on this new nonsense called the hi-iso race. I particulary find this new way of competition for the patrons favors, one of the best things that digital photography has brought us. That is the possibility of photographing what our eyes can see in penumbra. And why not go beyond?                                                                                   
                                  Thank you all manufacturers!      Eduardo
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: D4S ….can see in the dark!
« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2014, 09:19:07 pm »

The ISO talk is nonsense. The sample images are if anything worse than the D4, just with heavier noise reductions. Marketing hyperbole.

I am not sure how we can comment on the image quality at this stage.

I have not seen any sample that was captured in proper conditions to enable an accurate assessment of the gains.

It would be pretty foolish for Nikon to claim the D4s has a new sensor with improved high ISO image quality if it were not true. Besides, their past claims in terms of image quality have always proven accurate.

Cheers,
Bernard

Theodoros

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Re: D4S ….can see in the dark!
« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2014, 09:12:34 am »

The ISO talk is nonsense. The sample images are if anything worse than the D4, just with heavier noise reductions. Marketing hyperbole.

Gigabit, 1Dx had already.

11fps? 1Dx does 14.

And why do they insist on those stupid XQD cards forcing owners to buy into an expensive new memory card format along side CF.

Nikon welcome to 2012. :D

I'm sure its a decent camera but no huge shake on the D4.
The "Iso talk is nonsense" talk, …is nonsense!!!  ??? How one can judge from web sample images that D4s ones are worst than D4?  :P …a fanatic perhaps who thinks that the pros who will get this camera to make a better living are lunatics and ignorants as to buy worst than what was available to them till now?  :P :o ???
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BJL

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upper limits on IQ (SNR) at 0.4 mega-ISO
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2014, 12:24:29 pm »

The basic physics of photon shot noise puts an upper limit on SNR's and thus on image quality at these extremely high exposure index levels, as Bill Janes has computed in the other D4s thread:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=87570.msg713630#msg713630

Cynically, any camera can give exposure index of one million, just by massively underexposing and adjusting later in post-processing, so the mere addition of one higher notch on the EI scale does not prove anything about improved image quality; certainly it does not guarantee a full stop improvement.  It could for example be that Nikon sees an increased interest from photojournalists in quickly delivering low-resolution web-quality JPEGs from extreme lighting situations and the highest IE settings are just to facilitate that.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2014, 02:21:14 pm by BJL »
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robdickinson

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Re: D4S ….can see in the dark!
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2014, 02:07:38 pm »

The "Iso talk is nonsense" talk, …is nonsense!!!  ??? How one can judge from web sample images that D4s ones are worst than D4?  :P …a fanatic perhaps who thinks that the pros who will get this camera to make a better living are lunatics and ignorants as to buy worst than what was available to them till now?  :P :o ???

I am saying this before we see samples. Doesnt matter what Nikon claim , if they are using current bayer sensor tech they cannot increase the raw ability of this sensor by 1 stop. We are past that, there is no room for that any more. Like canon these claims of huge increases deal in manipulation of the raw data into more processed jpg. This never interests me because whatever the camera can do here a PC with software can do better later.
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