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Author Topic: 22mpix and old lenses  (Read 1961 times)

cyron123

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22mpix and old lenses
« on: February 10, 2014, 01:22:24 am »

Hi guys,
Is it right if you use a older 22Mpix back on a tech or view cam that the most lenses are ok? Even the analog lenses from schneider and rodenstock too?
Cyron
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tom_l

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Re: 22mpix and old lenses
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2014, 01:56:44 am »

It depends,

Super Angulon 90 and 65 were awful, the 58xl wasn't very good either.
The macro-symmar 180 was very good.

(Tested on P25 and a Sinar)

Tom
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torger

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Re: 22mpix and old lenses
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2014, 02:13:59 am »

A modern 60 megapixel back has 6 um pixels, a 22 megapixel back has 9 um. The difference is not huge, ie you can see much of the lens quality if you pixel peep a 22 megapixel too.

However, with that pixel size you can shoot f/16 without sacrificing any significant in diffraction, f/22 is quite okay too, which allows the analog lenses to work better. When using a 22 megapixel back I consider f/16 to be the "optimal" aperture. Another advantage with f/16 as optimal aperture is that the focusing challenge becomes easier due to the increased depth of field.

If you make informed choices of lenses you can get really sharp image quality with only analog lenses, but there are also lenses that may be a bit disappointing. Generally it's among the wide angles you find the weakest performers so you need to be extra careful there.

As far as I know some of the older digital lenses are actually exactl the same design as the analog counterpart, only with some extra precision checks during mounting.

It also depends on your expectation. If you expect that the corners should be rendered so sharp that you (almost) can't see a difference from the center when you pixel peep then you put pretty tough requirements on the lens. Many analog lenses can actually pull that off, even with some shifting, but far from all.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2014, 02:19:41 am by torger »
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pixjohn

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Re: 22mpix and old lenses
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2014, 07:03:47 pm »

I use the 58xl with a 33 leaf back and have no real problems.
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Theodoros

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Re: 22mpix and old lenses
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2014, 07:17:28 pm »

A modern 60 megapixel back has 6 um pixels, a 22 megapixel back has 9 um. The difference is not huge, ie you can see much of the lens quality if you pixel peep a 22 megapixel too.

However, with that pixel size you can shoot f/16 without sacrificing any significant in diffraction, f/22 is quite okay too, which allows the analog lenses to work better. When using a 22 megapixel back I consider f/16 to be the "optimal" aperture. Another advantage with f/16 as optimal aperture is that the focusing challenge becomes easier due to the increased depth of field.

If you make informed choices of lenses you can get really sharp image quality with only analog lenses, but there are also lenses that may be a bit disappointing. Generally it's among the wide angles you find the weakest performers so you need to be extra careful there.

As far as I know some of the older digital lenses are actually exactl the same design as the analog counterpart, only with some extra precision checks during mounting.

It also depends on your expectation. If you expect that the corners should be rendered so sharp that you (almost) can't see a difference from the center when you pixel peep then you put pretty tough requirements on the lens. Many analog lenses can actually pull that off, even with some shifting, but far from all.
The difference is huge… 9x9=81, 6x6=36 only… that's more than double the pixel area.
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Theodoros

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Re: 22mpix and old lenses
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2014, 07:31:29 pm »

I use the 58xl with a 33 leaf back and have no real problems.
Dalsa 33mp sensors (22mp sensors also) have pixels with less depth than Kodak sensors, that is an obvious benefit when used on cameras with movements… MO is, that this old 7.2mp sensor is the best ever made (not only for use with tech or view cameras - with MF cameras too). I wish there was another version of it at "FF" (54x40.5) size… I would never require something else for single shot.

P.S. My "dream" is a 16x MS capable version of that same sensor… I bet it would beat anything around in multishot… even my Imacon 528c (the current and ever king). Sinar 75H, is already quite impressive in single shot and even more so in 4x multishot….
« Last Edit: February 10, 2014, 07:34:06 pm by T.Dascalos »
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cyron123

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Re: 22mpix and old lenses
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2014, 01:10:02 am »

Hi guys, my question was the brand and type of lens with a good quality. No comparison between back please. This is another threat.Only the lenses. Thank you.
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torger

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Re: 22mpix and old lenses
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2014, 01:25:00 am »

The difference is huge… 9x9=81, 6x6=36 only… that's more than double the pixel area.

For seeing sharpness the side of the pixel is more important than the area, and the side is 50% longer. The point is that even with as little as 22 megapixels you can see much of the lens quality, ie if a lens is not sharp enough for a 60 megapixel back you'll most likely see quality problems on 22 megapixel too, and also the opposite a lens that's great on 22 megapixel is most likely peforming ok on 60 megapixel too. The fact that you can shoot at f/16 and you'd prefer f/11 on 60 megapixels plus the larger pixel does make some difference though, but you do still need to make careful lens choices.
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torger

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Re: 22mpix and old lenses
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2014, 01:30:43 am »

Hi guys, my question was the brand and type of lens with a good quality. No comparison between back please. This is another threat.Only the lenses. Thank you.

ok, sorry :)

If you want a semi-wide a late version of schneider 47mm super angulon xl is good on digital, it's practically the same as the digitar 47mm. You need a late version though as the early ones may not be as sharp.

I'd guess that this could be the case with other models too, many have existed for decades and the later versions may be manufactured with better precision and more correction than the early ones. That may be a reason you get different reports on performance for the "same" lens.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2014, 01:33:50 am by torger »
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Theodoros

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Re: 22mpix and old lenses
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2014, 03:41:25 am »

Hi guys, my question was the brand and type of lens with a good quality. No comparison between back please. This is another threat.Only the lenses. Thank you.
Sorry… but obviously you're aware that lenses have to work with backs and thus, you know that the lenses will be more compatible with some backs and less with others… Since then the compatibility is relevant to: 1.Pixel entrance area and 2. Pixel well depth, my priority for using older lenses, would go for: A. Dalsa 22mp, B. Dalsa 33mp, C. Kodak 22mp (in that order)… The guy I sold my Sinar P2 at, is using a Schneider 75mm super Angulon with it, his back being the Mamyia ZD (Dalsa 22mp sensor) via ZD dedicated sliding adaptor and the results seem quite satisfactory. I now use the same sensor as you do (Kodak 22mp) due to multishot capability of my back (Imacon 528c), but having sold my P2 to him, I now use Fuji GX680 for movements where the back benefits from image area to lens mount distance increase (and lens image circle close to 2x3 view camera) and if movements are not huge, which usually covers my needs, the results are fine…  I guess the performance of the lens will highly depend on the movements needed in your case… I expect most older lenses to be fine at "zero everything" since your back is among the "easy on lenses" ones, but it's difficult to be advised on what will happen with different lenses at different values of movements… I guess a good idea would be (if you own the back already) to get good relations with a store that stocks S/H and try some lenses with respect to your needs…
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