Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 8   Go Down

Author Topic: Why are the tests of IQ250 against CCD-backs taking so long?  (Read 35290 times)

henrikfoto

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 899
Why are the tests of IQ250 against CCD-backs taking so long?
« on: February 06, 2014, 03:52:45 pm »

Where are the tests promissed by the sellers of the new 250 against CCD??
Not looking so good after all?
Logged

Telecaster

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3686
Re: Why are the tests of IQ250 against CCD-backs taking so long?
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2014, 04:08:36 pm »

Geez, do you want it done fast or do you want it done well? Patience...

-Dave-
Logged

henrikfoto

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 899
Re: Why are the tests of IQ250 against CCD-backs taking so long?
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2014, 04:23:00 pm »

Geez, do you want it done fast or do you want it done well? Patience...

-Dave-


A good test can be done in a few hours. My guess is that the results are not as they hoped for.
Logged

Vladimirovich

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1311
Re: Why are the tests of IQ250 against CCD-backs taking so long?
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2014, 04:47:47 pm »

Where are the tests ?
do you think it is easy to decide what to do with the holy trinity of MF CCD goodies ? 6 stops, 3D look and 16bits
Logged

henrikfoto

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 899
Re: Why are the tests of IQ250 against CCD-backs taking so long?
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2014, 04:57:51 pm »

do you think it is easy to decide what to do with the holy trinity of MF CCD goodies ? 6 stops, 3D look and 16bits


Haha!
I will be very surpriced if the 250 is not inferrior to the CCD-backs on base iso.
Logged

Doug Peterson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4169
    • http://www.doug-peterson.com
Re: Why are the tests of IQ250 against CCD-backs taking so long?
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2014, 05:11:41 pm »

I'm insulted by this. I've got six years of history here being very direct about both the pros and cons of anything we sell. To imply it's taking "so long" because there is some conspiracy to keep the results from you vastly underestimates the amount of work we put in to providing these tests.

I spent 7 hours at the Morgan Library on Monday capturing every combination of:
IQ250, IQ260, IQ280
32HR, 32XL, 40HR, 60XL
0/15/30mm rise
0/15/-15mm shift

I also added an ISO sweep test, and tested the 47XL and 28LS with the IQ250.

With LCCs that 271 images.

It took most of three days (90% done at this point) to backup, organize, apply LCC's, and adjust those files. The organization is especially important because we intend the raws to be able to be processed by people not present at the test, who will therefore need to know exactly what each file represents.

We'll be making all these files available to our clients, and most of them available to anyone (there are some bandwidth concerns in sharing the entire inventory to the entire world). Both the ones that show the IQ250 shining (most of them) and the ones that show the IQ250 really struggling (like the 35XL with 15mm movement).

Keep in mind that in that time since the launch we've also
- changed 13 time zones, and did a 16 hour flight
- written a lengthy article that will be published on LL tomorrow, based on extensive interviews and conversation with the R+D team
- written an extensive FAQ on the IQ250 which had information no one else published
- tested the new version of C1 and Capture Pilot
- posted answers to dozens of questions asked here on the forum
- captured and published a video of the IQ250 live view
- rushed TIFFs of the raw files we had to client's that have time sensitive requests which could not wait for the new version of C1 (e.g. one is planning a project for next month and needs to know if an IQ250 or IQ260 will be better for his project)
- done all the normal office work (ya know, like supporting our existing customers - our #1 priority, whose questions and issues don't suddenly stop because there is a new product to test)

If anything, I do accept blame for overestimating the speed at which we'd get the tests out. For that I do apologize.

If I sound a bit annoyed at the accusation, I am. I've basically not slept a full night since the launch, doing everything possible to get good, relevant, real world testing done, while also taking care of our existing customers (as a dealer we are very hands on with our client's and any issues/questions they have). I do this, despite knowing that as soon as I post the test the comments will be filled with posters telling me I'm dumb because I didn't do XYZ ("you should have done 17.5mm of shift, not 15mm blah blah"), because I know there are many here who have a genuine curiosity, and don't have access to rent/evaluate a back and therefore rely on such testing to help them make very large financial decisions.

Anyway, back to work...
« Last Edit: February 06, 2014, 05:27:14 pm by Doug Peterson »
Logged

Doug Peterson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4169
    • http://www.doug-peterson.com
Re: Why are the tests of IQ250 against CCD-backs taking so long?
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2014, 05:18:33 pm »

By the way, here is the challenging, real-world, but beautiful location, in which we tested the back. More details tomorrow:

(IQ250, 32HR, 8mm rise)

LKaven

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1060
Re: Why are the tests of IQ250 against CCD-backs taking so long?
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2014, 05:23:50 pm »

I will be very surpriced if the 250 is not inferrior to the CCD-backs on base iso.

Why would you think this?

henrikfoto

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 899
Re: Why are the tests of IQ250 against CCD-backs taking so long?
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2014, 05:25:41 pm »

Hi Doug!

Sorry if you felt this was a criticism of you. It was not!!

You are just one of several dealers that has this as a demo now.
What a lot of people are wondering now is how good is this new CMOS-backs compared to the CCD-backs
are. I just wanted to wake up someone using the new back. Looks like it worked ;)
Logged

LKaven

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1060
Re: Why are the tests of IQ250 against CCD-backs taking so long?
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2014, 05:26:48 pm »

By the way, here is the challenging, real-world, but beautiful location, in which we tested the back. More details tomorrow:

(IQ250, 32HR, 8mm rise)

Most of us here know that you work very hard for a living.  Just the LuLa part of your job is a job.  Sleep is something fondly remembered.

Theodoros

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2454
Re: Why are the tests of IQ250 against CCD-backs taking so long?
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2014, 05:27:11 pm »

By the way, here is the challenging, real-world, but beautiful location, in which we tested the back. More details tomorrow:

(IQ250, 32HR, 8mm rise)
DR certainly looks impressive…
Logged

henrikfoto

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 899
Re: Why are the tests of IQ250 against CCD-backs taking so long?
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2014, 05:28:00 pm »

Why would you think this?


Just because we have been told for many years how much better the CCDs are
and because Phase One have been working with CCD for many years and should know
this tecnology much better.
Logged

Doug Peterson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4169
    • http://www.doug-peterson.com
Re: Why are the tests of IQ250 against CCD-backs taking so long?
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2014, 05:29:25 pm »

Sorry if you felt this was a criticism of you. It was not!!

I should know better than to take insult at something you post. I know you're a fair and nice guy.

I think I'm just frustrated how long it's taking too.

Doug Peterson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4169
    • http://www.doug-peterson.com
Re: Why are the tests of IQ250 against CCD-backs taking so long?
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2014, 05:30:08 pm »


Just because we have been told for many years how much better the CCDs are
and because Phase One have been working with CCD for many years and should know
this tecnology much better.

Stay tuned for more details on this topic tomorrow in the LL front page :).

henrikfoto

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 899
Re: Why are the tests of IQ250 against CCD-backs taking so long?
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2014, 05:32:27 pm »

Yes!!! Very interesting!!
Logged

LKaven

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1060
Re: Why are the tests of IQ250 against CCD-backs taking so long?
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2014, 05:40:29 pm »

Just because we have been told for many years how much better the CCDs are
and because Phase One have been working with CCD for many years and should know
this tecnology much better.

To be sure, Phase One and Leaf have developed high fidelity CCD capture to an art.  Learning to deal with low level analog signals, low-noise preamps, and high-quality A-to-D conversion was necessary for CCD implementation.

Interesting that this Sony chip, with its own preamps/converters, delivers digital right off the sensor.  While Phase/Pentax/Hasselblad might be able to improve this somewhat, for the most part, the image quality is all in Sony's hands.

Telecaster

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3686
Re: Why are the tests of IQ250 against CCD-backs taking so long?
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2014, 05:50:24 pm »

Interesting that this Sony chip, with its own preamps/converters, delivers digital right off the sensor. While Phase/Pentax/Hasselblad might be able to improve this somewhat, for the most part, the image quality is all in Sony's hands.

Is there is fixed data path here or can you bypass the on-chip gain and/or ADCs and roll your own?

-Dave-
Logged

Gigi

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 524
    • some work
Re: Why are the tests of IQ250 against CCD-backs taking so long?
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2014, 06:05:49 pm »

Doug -

Please accept no blame, only thanks.

Geoff
Logged
Geoff

jduncan

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 432
Re: Why are the tests of IQ250 against CCD-backs taking so long?
« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2014, 06:48:37 pm »

I'm insulted by this. I've got six years of history here being very direct about both the pros and cons of anything we sell. To imply it's taking "so long" because there is some conspiracy to keep the results from you vastly underestimates the amount of work we put in to providing these tests.

I spent 7 hours at the Morgan Library on Monday capturing every combination of:
IQ250, IQ260, IQ280
32HR, 32XL, 40HR, 60XL
0/15/30mm rise
0/15/-15mm shift

I also added an ISO sweep test, and tested the 47XL and 28LS with the IQ250.

With LCCs that 271 images.

It took most of three days (90% done at this point) to backup, organize, apply LCC's, and adjust those files. The organization is especially important because we intend the raws to be able to be processed by people not present at the test, who will therefore need to know exactly what each file represents.

We'll be making all these files available to our clients, and most of them available to anyone (there are some bandwidth concerns in sharing the entire inventory to the entire world). Both the ones that show the IQ250 shining (most of them) and the ones that show the IQ250 really struggling (like the 35XL with 15mm movement).

Keep in mind that in that time since the launch we've also
- changed 13 time zones, and did a 16 hour flight
- written a lengthy article that will be published on LL tomorrow, based on extensive interviews and conversation with the R+D team
- written an extensive FAQ on the IQ250 which had information no one else published
- tested the new version of C1 and Capture Pilot
- posted answers to dozens of questions asked here on the forum
- captured and published a video of the IQ250 live view
- rushed TIFFs of the raw files we had to client's that have time sensitive requests which could not wait for the new version of C1 (e.g. one is planning a project for next month and needs to know if an IQ250 or IQ260 will be better for his project)
- done all the normal office work (ya know, like supporting our existing customers - our #1 priority, whose questions and issues don't suddenly stop because there is a new product to test)

If anything, I do accept blame for overestimating the speed at which we'd get the tests out. For that I do apologize.

If I sound a bit annoyed at the accusation, I am. I've basically not slept a full night since the launch, doing everything possible to get good, relevant, real world testing done, while also taking care of our existing customers (as a dealer we are very hands on with our client's and any issues/questions they have). I do this, despite knowing that as soon as I post the test the comments will be filled with posters telling me I'm dumb because I didn't do XYZ ("you should have done 17.5mm of shift, not 15mm blah blah"), because I know there are many here who have a genuine curiosity, and don't have access to rent/evaluate a back and therefore rely on such testing to help them make very large financial decisions.

Anyway, back to work...

The true to be told, I am surprised that you are ready to publish tomorrow.
I was not expecting tests this early.  I am not being ironic here: This is a totally new sensor with limited quantities in the wild  and limited hands to review.

I hope you have the time to do both shadow (strong point of Nikons) and Highlight recovery tests.

The conspiracy by the way don't even make sense as Phase will continue to sell CCD based Backs it's in the best interests of the dealers that the CCDs win in some areas.

Best regards,
J. Duncan.
Logged
english is not my first language, an I k

Paul2660

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3978
    • Photos of Arkansas
Re: Why are the tests of IQ250 against CCD-backs taking so long?
« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2014, 07:31:46 pm »

Doug,

Was all tech camera testing indoors? 

Paul
Logged
Paul Caldwell
Little Rock, Arkansas U.S.
www.photosofarkansas.com
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 8   Go Up