The New Leica S Adoption-Rates Question

[RVB]

Dear Mr. Dascalos,

 Here is a composite with the original preview from Leica, and a slightly better color balanced version. I don't like my over-red version too much, it looks like an old Playboy, but at least it doesn't look like the greenish Leica preview which turns the model into a fashionable cross between a vampire and an alien. Which is by the way what you get if you render "as shot".  

 I ran this image past another color consultant to the industry, as you indicated my perception was bad, and we ran the image through a couple of converters and agreed about the color issues. The causes are interesting to us, but I don't think they are relevant to you as your taste differs from our perception of color.

Edmund

Edmund,if you use LR5 be sure to use the embedded profile as opposed to camera standard.. it makes a difference ..

Rob

[eronald]

Edmund,if you use LR5 be sure to use the embedded profile as opposed to camera standard.. it makes a difference ..

Rob

I agree.

But it makes little difference to the color balance of this published image (I tried both Adobe Standard and Embedded in PS CC).

The mystery here is why photographers now consider that human beings should be white or bright green or bright orange - and insist they need $20K cameras to render them that way. Although I guess all that expensive stuff women paint their faces with is equally mysterious to me

Edmund

[RVB]

I agree.

But it makes little difference to the color balance of this published image (I tried both Adobe Standard and Embedded in PS CC).

The mystery here is why photographers now consider that human beings should be white or pale green or bright orange - and insist they need $20K cameras to render them that way.

Edmund

Its a good question ,at the moment the desaturated look is quite popular and you don't need MF for this kind of look,in other cases it could be a badly profiled monitor or simply bad taste.. ;-)

Rob

[telyt]

The mystery here is why photographers now consider that human beings should be white or bright green or bright orange - and insist they need $20K cameras to render them that way. Although I guess all that expensive stuff women paint their faces with is equally mysterious to me

Sometimes there's no rational explanation for popularity (and I agree on both of your points).

[Rob C]

"The mystery here is why photographers now consider that human beings should be white or pale green or bright orange - and insist they need $20K cameras to render them that way".


And to think: FredBGG got shot for posing the very same philosophical question/point/argument/observation.

I guess his sin/crime was just bad timing.

;-)

Rob C

[Rob C]

Rob,

As always I appreciate your rigorous scientific explanations  

Edmund

Thank you, Edmund; it's the least I can do.

As a retired photographer I feel this obligation to 'give something back' to the profession. It is still a profession, isn't it?

;-)

Rob C

[rgmoore]

T.Dascalos and RVB, thank you both for your replies.  I was afraid that the answer would be a $$$ multishot back.  For my non-pro work I may need to compromise with a used Hasselblad single shot back and still be
better off for color accuracy Than with a DSLR.

[dfarkas]

I took a look at the DNG file posted on Leica's website. The green cast was a case of selecting the wrong WB in camera. The WB goes along with the raw file so without any adjustment, the WB settings of 6850K +17 tint were just way off and carried through into LR. Also, the file has the old process variant of 2010 embedded in it, bringing up the v3 set of tone adjustments. From the original DNG, I outputted three images and attached them here.

The first image I output was the unmodified original, with incorrect settings and no optimization of any kind (which I feel is not the best way to do file evaluation as this is never how a real workflow would be).

For the second file, I updated the process variant to 2012 (LR v4/5) and used the eyedropper on the cigarette holder for a custom WB of 5000K +38 tint, which looks a lot more natural, but still not to my personal taste.

For the third image, I took the modified second version and applied my default S2 preset, which applies a small amount of sharpening, plays with the HSL adjustments a little, brings up shadows, drops blacks and pulls in highlights a touch. With more recovered highlights, I pushed the exposure about a half a stop to give it a little more life. And, voila. Adjustments (WB, selecting my preset and bumping the EV) took all of 10 seconds.

For my workflow, I apply my preset upon import so that every image has the basic look and feel that I like to see from the S. Then, it's usually just a matter of small tweaks to EV, highlights, shadows and WB. I use the same sharpening settings, tone curve and HSL shifts for every single file. As they say, better to develop a workflow, than a work-slow. 

[Theodoros]

As someone who has had his fair share of paintings photographed for reproduction I can attest that it is an extremely skilled discipline. There are many folk out there offering the service who frankly haven't a clue.

+1

[bcooter]

 I ran this image past another color consultant to the industry,

Edmund,

The only way to get rid of temptation is to yield to it (oscar wilde).

Seriously if you want to know what a camera does rent it, borrow it, buy it, but most of all shoot with it.

http://www.leica-stores.fr/store-leica-paris-rue-de-la-pompe#.UvE3MY6lD_0

These stores treat you like royalty (with royal prices) and I'm sure they let you go outside with any subject you like and shoot to your hearts extent.

Then work the files to your liking.

Just remember walking into a Leica store can be very tempting for a photographer.

When I went into the Mayfair store in London, I knew I was going to buy an S or S2, but I always try to buy any major item from Steve Hendrix https://captureintegration.com/leica/ and even knowing that, it took every bit of my willpower not to say sure, box up an S(2) and throw in a M while your at it.

The thing is I could justify the S2 because it took contax lenses and I was familiar with ccd's and especially what leica does with a ccd.  

Justifying a m or m9 is more difficult for a lot of reasons, but mainly because it doesn't tether and that limits it's use for me.

In fact the only buzz kill of my olympus cameras is tethering as I trust that file more than any cmos file I've shot.

But then again you have to do the shooting and processing yourself.  

I don't know who rents Leicas in Paris, I don't think matphot does, but when I'm back in London if you like, drop by and I'll load you up with lenses and a body and you can walk the streets of Hoxton and shoot to your hearts content, since I think 75% of everyone in shoreditch is either a photographer, model or producer they won't take exception.

Or you can take your drive across the high street to Taylor James that probably works more high end post processing than any company on the planet.  I'll bet they'll sort it out for you.

And don't worry you won't feel alone in London as 386,000 French live in London and there is a French owned cafe on my corner.  You can go in with the Leica talk art, politics  and complain about Americans.



IMO

BC

P.S.   Actually this is the camera you really need http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/official-hasselblad-hv-a-mount-camera-launched/

You can shoot a better built Sony, Zeiss glass and have a hasselblad logo.   It will make the price of buying an S2 much easier to justify.

[Theodoros]

T.Dascalos and RVB, thank you both for your replies.  I was afraid that the answer would be a $$$ multishot back.  For my non-pro work I may need to compromise with a used Hasselblad single shot back and still be
better off for color accuracy Than with a DSLR.

Really RG… it's not a matter of colour accuracy, it's more a matter of having to work with interpolated colour, you see, a painter, when he works with a colour, he does so with respect to lighting... this is very different than judging the colour accuracy on a colour chart that you only have one tone of it…. In other words, with interpolated colour, you may achieve accuracy in the mid tones, but the same colour may "crack" as the painter paints it lighter and darker with respect to the paint's lighting.

[MrSmith]

"since I think 75% of everyone in shoreditch is either a photographer, model or producer they won't take exception."

They are all hipster kids and work in I.T.  Just need a DSLR, the beard, tattoos plus a band-T that you can't name the lead singer of (or an album, or tell if any band members are dead) and you will look the part but most of them aren't actually what they say they are.
I guess it's the same in NY/LA/Paris/Milan

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

Thanks a lot! Much better.

But, it seems that the lens has a lot of color fringing in the out of focus areas. The edges on the curtain and the painting on the wall look awful, at least in my eyes.

Best regards
Erik

I took a look at the DNG file posted on Leica's website. The green cast was a case of selecting the wrong WB in camera. The WB goes along with the raw file so without any adjustment, the WB settings of 6850K +17 tint were just way off and carried through into LR. Also, the file has the old process variant of 2010 embedded in it, bringing up the v3 set of tone adjustments. From the original DNG, I outputted three images and attached them here.

The first image I output was the unmodified original, with incorrect settings and no optimization of any kind (which I feel is not the best way to do file evaluation as this is never how a real workflow would be).

For the second file, I updated the process variant to 2012 (LR v4/5) and used the eyedropper on the cigarette holder for a custom WB of 5000K +38 tint, which looks a lot more natural, but still not to my personal taste.

For the third image, I took the modified second version and applied my default S2 preset, which applies a small amount of sharpening, plays with the HSL adjustments a little, brings up shadows, drops blacks and pulls in highlights a touch. With more recovered highlights, I pushed the exposure about a half a stop to give it a little more life. And, voila. Adjustments (WB, selecting my preset and bumping the EV) took all of 10 seconds.

For my workflow, I apply my preset upon import so that every image has the basic look and feel that I like to see from the S. Then, it's usually just a matter of small tweaks to EV, highlights, shadows and WB. I use the same sharpening settings, tone curve and HSL shifts for every single file. As they say, better to develop a workflow, than a work-slow. 

[epines]

No disrespect to David Farkas and the others who have tweaked this image, but I vastly prefer the original version, with its warm, greenish tint. The palette meshes well with the period feel of the location. The color on her feels like it's simply a result of soft ambient tungsten combined with window light bouncing off tinted walls, the way it would be in real life. And the transitions between highlights and midtones on her face are much gentler and softer.  

[bcooter]

"since I think 75% of everyone in shoreditch is either a photographer, model or producer they won't take exception."

They are all hipster kids and work in I.T.  Just need a DSLR, the beard, tattoos plus a band-T that you can't name the lead singer of (or an album, or tell if any band members are dead) and you will look the part but most of them aren't actually what they say they are.
I guess it's the same in NY/LA/Paris/Milan

Now Mr. Smith,

I didn't say that 90% of Shoreditch made their living as a photogrpaher, producers or model, I just said that was their self appointed job descriptions.

Yes many work in some form of IT and I have to admit that some are posers living of mom, dad or the newest trend to marry a trust fund spouse,  but some are impressive with their work ethic.

There is a clothing designer all made up of 20 somethings on my corner and I pull a lot of hours.  If I walk out on the street at 2am to clear my head,  they're all still in there working, so as much as we bash the trophy generation, some step ahead and work hard.

IMO

BC

[bcooter]

No disrespect to David Farkas and the others who have tweaked this image, but I vastly prefer the original version, with its warm, greenish tint. The palette meshes well with the period feel of the location. The color on her feels like it's simply a result of soft ambient tungsten combined with window light bouncing off tinted walls, the way it would be in real life. And the transitions between highlights and midtones on her face are much gentler and softer.  

+1

[eronald]

+1

At least you two guys see that there *is* a tint.

As for London, I went to school there - in South Ken, obviously
London has its good sides, but I resolutely prefer Paris: women, wine and almost no work ethic

Edmund

[dfarkas]

Hi,

Thanks a lot! Much better.

But, it seems that the lens has a lot of color fringing in the out of focus areas. The edges on the curtain and the painting on the wall look awful, at least in my eyes.

Best regards
Erik

Erik,

The "color fringing" in the window is a result of somewhat aggressive highlight recovery on my part, not CA. Here is the same image with the highlights brought up a bit and letting the window blow out some.

[eronald]

As with many mixed light images, the way to "save" it in the end is probably to allow it to tint hard in some way.
Which hue one chooses is I guess a personal matter.
Where I disagree is for such an image being used as an manufacturer's example shot.

Edmund

Erik,

The "color fringing" in the window is a result of somewhat aggressive highlight recovery on my part, not CA. Here is the same image with the highlights brought up a bit and letting the window blow out some.

[bcooter]

As with many mixed light images, the way to "save" it in the end is probably to allow it to tint hard in some way.
Which hue one chooses is I guess a personal matter.
Where I disagree is for such an image being used as an manufacturer's example shot.

Edmund

This conversation goes nowhere.   People talking about images that they didn't make.   I don't know what the photographer was thinking, don't know if the wb was a concern to him/her since it was a raw file.

The only way to is do it yourself, prove only to yourself if a camera is right or wrong for you.

That's why I made the offer and that's why I would never post a raw file.

This image has no retouching other than background clean up and is approx. 1/3 of a frame from a p30+ but if I posted the raw, everyone would be processing to their vision, not mine.



Once again, get the camera, shoot it yourself and you'll know whats what.

IMO

BC