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Author Topic: are all HVLP sprayers are really loud?  (Read 10875 times)

msongs

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are all HVLP sprayers are really loud?
« on: January 06, 2014, 09:18:52 pm »

got the smallest sprayer they had at Lowes, Wagner Power Plus Pro. Store would not let me plug it in and run it to see how loud it is.
So got it home plugged it in and sheesh it is louder than my miter saw! Do they get any quieter when they have liquid in them like Timeless varnish? Other wise this thing is going back ASAP. Totally too loud. Are other brands quieter? Thanks!

PS - trying a sprayer because timeless lifts the inks and is no good rolled on despite trying tips and tricks on that in another thread here
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Ken Doo

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Re: are all HVLP sprayers are really loud?
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2014, 09:33:12 pm »

hvlp is definitely the way to go for coating canvas.

For a "quieter" hvlp spray system, look at the Fuji Q3 or Q4 gold systems....

ken

BillK

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Re: are all HVLP sprayers are really loud?
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2014, 10:07:13 pm »

I agree with Ken, the fuji systems are about the quietest ones out there.
They cost many times what your Wagner sprayer cost, however.

If you already have or can find a relatively quiet compressor, you could just buy
a good HVLP cup gun for less money.

I have the Q4 Gold system and love it, but it didn't come cheap.
If your volume is high, it is definitely worth it, if you only spray
a little here and there, you may want to look for a less costly solution.
If money is no object, go with the fuji system.

Bill
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jferrari

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Re: are all HVLP sprayers are really loud?
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2014, 10:19:43 pm »

The sprayer is not too loud, your ears are too sensitive. Just use ear plugs.
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Paul2660

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Re: are all HVLP sprayers are really loud?
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2014, 10:45:40 pm »

Fuji's will be around 750 to 900 depending on the model you go for.  Major investment and you need to be coating a lot of canvas. 

All of the Fuji's will have the compressor as a separate piece that you can move into a different room/setting.  This will cut down on the noise near you, but they still make a good bit of noise. 

Wagner makes a model called the Control Spray Plus and this also has the compressor behind the unit attached via hose.  No Where as well made as the Fuji, but it also gets the job done for me.  Cost is about 80.00 U.S.   You will need to look online to find this unit.

Paul Caldwell
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bill t.

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Re: are all HVLP sprayers are really loud?
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2014, 11:21:19 pm »

The Fuji Q4 turbine is the quietest I have heard, although I would hesitate to call it quiet in absolute terms.  Two people standing nearby can speak to each in normal voices, barely.  Have used one for several years and it's still going strong although it ain't quite what it used to be, I think it needs to be opened up a scrubbed a bit inside.  But the thing is, it has many, many times the airflow you need for coating canvas.  But it can throw latex like a champ and is great for blowing dust and crud out of the shop.  

You can build a sort of mini-garage for noisy appliances that are open on one side for access and ventilation.  Even a cardboard box helps.  At least then you can point the noise in the least objectionable direction.  When I was coating outside I left the turbine in the house and brought the hose out through an almost closed sliding door.  That created very little noise in the neighborhood.

edit...if you are lifting ink while rolling, try putting down a first sealing coat of extremely dilute coating, maybe as much as 3 parts water to 1 part Timeless, or whatever.  Get it down fast, it's easy to get a smooth, quick coating with such a dilute solution.  Start with a wet roller, that's important to avoid bubbles.  Then coat with your normal concentration later.  Some canvases are much more prone to ink-lifting that others.  The worst I have encountered are all the glossy canvases, the best is maybe Canson PhotoArt HD (lots of OBA's).
« Last Edit: January 06, 2014, 11:29:24 pm by bill t. »
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Some Guy

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Re: are all HVLP sprayers are really loud?
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2014, 11:23:34 pm »

Yeah, the Wagner's are sort of LOUD.  I got a kick out of the TV commercials where they do not demonstrate the noise at all, just seem so quiet until you actually use one.  I thought the thing was busted the first time I pulled the trigger when it went "BRRRAPPP!"

I ended up with a Sata Mini-Jet HVLP gun that cost a small fortune as did the compressor and retired the Wagner.  I leave the compressor in the garage and shoot outside via a long hose to get away form the compressor noise.  The Fuji might be a better overall unit to do prints with, but I use the Sata Mini-Jet to spray motorcycles too so it is sort of dual purpose.

SG
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msongs

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the problem with loud....
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2014, 12:10:52 am »

i will be working on the balcony of my apartment, this much noise will get the crowd in an uproar!

that control spray plus sounds good cuz I can put the compressor in the apt and close the sliding glass door most of the way. Lowes had a bin sign for the product but was out of stock. I can wait til they get another one and try that.

I really do not have that much canvas to spray, maybe just 4 size 12x36s a week
« Last Edit: January 07, 2014, 12:12:58 am by msongs »
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bill t.

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Re: the problem with loud....
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2014, 02:10:31 pm »

i will be working on the balcony of my apartment, this much noise will get the crowd in an uproar!

The uproar from the noise will be NOTHING compared to the uproar from the overspray landing on peoples' windows up to about 100 feet away.  Better drop that balcony concept now, before the angry mob breaks down your door.  Or somehow seal the balcony, good luck with that.
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Larry Heath

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Re: are all HVLP sprayers are really loud?
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2014, 08:29:06 pm »


Here is a link to the HVLP gun that I use. It has about a 12" spray pattern at 12" off the canvas, it uses a 2.0 nozzle which allows for application of heavy bodied materials quickly and uniformly, using less dilution and therefore less dry time for the extra water to evaporate off. That can be a problem with guns with small nozzle sizes that need substantial dilution to spray thick canvas sealer/coatings. Two coats and your done. Oh, and this gun produces very little overspray, what you shoot goes where you shoot it, and stays there.

I am told that you can get even larger nozzle sizes and that you can spray thick glues and adhesives for mounting canvas to various substrates.

http://www.amazon.com/TCP-Global%C2%AE-Professional-Primer-Regulator/dp/B002PK2TD4/ref=pd_sbs_auto_53

Here is the little 110v compressor (OIL-LESS!!!!) <--- SEE THAT!!, DONT USE CHEAP COMSUMMER GRADE HOME COMPRESSORS  I use for the sprayer and for my Grex pneumatic stapler.

http://www.nailgundepot.com/Senco-PC1010-Portable-Electric-Air-Compressor-Details.html

These are all Pro quality tools that with reasonable care will last a lifetime, not to mention the companies will be around for parts should you need them.

So for $150 or so you have two tools that are meant to and capable of being used day in and day out, for years, not cheap consumer grade junk or vastly over priced big name commercial brands.

Then if you are spraying canvas you must be stretching it, so here is the pneumatic stapler I use. Perfect drives every , never any short drives that need to be pulled or pounded in and never any jams, drives any length from 1/4" to 9/16" long. Uses universally available T50 staples. Well never any jams after you get it broke in a bit, the coatings are substantial and need a little ware-in, I can't tell you how many boxes of staples I've shot with this gun and I can't remember the last time it's jammed, again save the few that I had in the first box or so.

http://www.nailgundepot.com/Grex-A11AD-T50-20-Gauge-Stapler-316-to-58-Details.html

There you go high quality pro products for good prices.

Later Larry
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bill t.

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Re: are all HVLP sprayers are really loud?
« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2014, 09:40:34 pm »

Yes, Larry is right about the 2mm caps.  You get less overspray with wider caps and less dilution, no question about it.

I notice a lot of the Fuji HVLP kits now come with 1.3mm caps, as opposed to the 1.4mm caps on the older kits.  0.1mm doesn't sound like much.  But when my old 1.4mm gun broke in a crunch situation I replaced it with a 1.3mm, Fuji T-57 gun.  I immediately noticed a big increase in overspray for the same amount of applied varnish.  My yardstick at the time was the amount of overspray dots on my nearby truck's windshield, which went from "whisk it off like dust" with the 1.4mm gun, to "wipe it off with a soapy towel and lots of elbow grease" with the 1.3mm gun.  I greatly prefer the old gun, even though it's fussy getting the pattern right.

Overspray is a curious beast.  The inside of my "booth" has only light, powdery dust on the surfaces.  But when the haze travels a distance, it seems like it coalesces into larger drops that can stick like wet spray to smooth surfaces.

The only thing with the big caps is that you must be careful about runs on vertically sprayed canvases.  With even a 1.4mm cap I had to crank the needle down to about 1/8 what I would use for latex etc, and that was with very rapid gun movement across the canvas.

I have seen guns labeled "low volume low pressure" alleged to create very little overspray.  Have no experience with them.  Anybody?
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msongs

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end of the sprayer story...I hope :-)
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2014, 05:40:46 pm »

bought a Graco 2900. It has a .08 tip (is a bigger tip # better?) the compressor unit is separate so I can put it inside my apartment and close the sliding glass door which pretty much reduces the noise to an acceptable level, sounds like a quiet vacuum cleaner. Test sprayed on a bunch of cardboard hanging on the wall to develop a setting. Tried the timeless on a small piece of canvas and seemed to do ok. put on the second coat and woa it was very wet. so will either have to reduce the amt/setting a lot for the second coat or really get farther away from the pic on the wall. well I suppose practice will take care of this issue. thanks for all your comments and tips.

Marshall aka Msongs
« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 05:48:38 pm by msongs »
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Msongs
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dgberg

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Re: are all HVLP sprayers are really loud?
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2014, 05:48:14 pm »

Let your first coat completely dry if you didn't .
Then your second coat goes on exactly like your first and you will eliminate any sags or runs.

bill t.

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Re: are all HVLP sprayers are really loud?
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2014, 07:28:42 pm »

Larry's post put a bug in my ear about nozzle size.  So I picked up a 1.5mm tip kit for my Fuji T-5070 gun, which came stock with a 1.3mm tip.  Wow!  What a difference all around!  Much less overspray, even though I upped the rate to from 175ml per minute with the old 1.3mm tip, to almost 300ml/minute with the 1.5mm tip.  Throwing a nice, wet 12" swath is no problem at all.

I'm gonna theorize that the overspray with the 1.3mm tip was coming from too thin a mixture or paint to air.  I have an old Q4 turbine which delivers a lot of air.  I wonder if the kits that come with smaller turbines would be a better match to 1.3mm tip?  The bugaboo with those turbines is that there isn't any repeatable way to throttle down the air volume, at least that I know about.  So in my case I upped the paint flow in relation to the air flow, and moved the gun a lot faster over the prints, about 1.5 feet per second, for 3 coats up to an almost shiny gloss.  Anyhoo, just about all of that paint landed square on the prints, and the finish looks great.  I'm even having thoughts about the 1.8mm tip.

It was $60 well spent, even though now I have a retired 1.3mm tip kit with nowhere to go except ebay.  Anybody buying a new "T-series" Fuji system should negotiate for a 1.5 or 1.8mm tip, IMHO.
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Larry Heath

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Re: are all HVLP sprayers are really loud?
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2014, 04:53:05 pm »

So the gist of it is as far as spray coating canvas, in my opinion, is bigger nozzle size is in general better, up to the point you start getting runs. It is really that simple.

Now you can stop right here and will have gotten all you really need to know for the purposes of this discussion about spray coating canvas.  Below is some of the rest of the story. Proceed at the peril of your sanity.

Basically overspray is a function of air pressure and nozzle size needed to atomize to your desired or needed particle size, the desired volume and type of material you wish to coat with. The cap size is a basic governing factor in how much fluid you deposit at what particle size at a given air pressure, in a pressure fed fluid delivery system like the T5070 gun. Gravity fed guns are a bit different in that they aren’t tied as directly to air pressure but still constrained by cap size. In general over spray is more dependent on the atomizing air flow and how fine the particles you need/wish to get in the delivered material. Finer particles mean more overspray and we don’t need particularly fine or uniform particle sizes to coat a canvas.

In many canvas coatings there are leveling agents (viscosity modifiers) that allow the material to end up nice and smooth even when the material is poured and or globed on, then smeared around with a roller brush until in some cases it gets somewhat tacky/dry (that crackly sound the roller makes) and then leaves relatively huge peaks and valleys on the coated surface, they will “level” the surface given the appropriate further drying times.

The T5070 gun is what is called in the automotive trades, a finish gun; it is capable of producing very fine and very uniform droplet sizes, which is desirable for coatings whose liquid vehicle is some type of VOC (volatile organic component/carrier) as well as being a multi-part chemically reactive cocktail, think very thin runny colored epoxy glue. So once again, basically the finer the droplet size the more overspray. Now add to this the patterning air that comes out of the wings of the cap to produce the fan pattern and you have a very fine mist capable of being blown around and floating everywhere even given the very smallest of air currents, in particular if you get too aggressive with pushing the spray pattern around trying to get a wide fan. As well there is the add fact that many people have a tendency to spray way too far away from the surface they are trying to coat. I have seen some trying to spray at distances of 18” to 2 feet, when 8” to 12” is really optimal with a good gun that is correctly setup. This leads to loads of overspray.

So if we were coating an extremely smooth surface, and we are obviously not, with as close to zero surface imperfections as humanly possible (think a well prepped auto surface ready for finish painting) as well as using a very fast evaporating vehicle (VOC) and it is also an actively reacting chemistry, this is a great gun. But, even given the fact that this is called an HVLP gun and does reduce the amount of VOC required to get your coating material in a very uniform very thin layer where you need it, you would still normally be using this gun in a down draft spray booth because it still produces a substantial amount of overspray, because of its inherent design parameters. It just does so with a bit less of the VOC’s that the government wanted the automotive industry to reduce, or do away with, which brought about the HVLP gun designs in the first place.

All this is a very long winded way of saying you don’t need a $300 to $400 ( gun alone, more with source) very high quality automotive “finish” gun to lay down a material that can actually be applied, acceptably, with a roller brush, at least by most people most of the time. Which when we do use it in our application, then requires a good bit of dilution of the materials we use to get it to even go through the gun in the first place, one designed to spray quite thin very fast drying materials in exceptionally thin exceptionally uniform layers in the first place! It doesn’t seem to make a lot of sense, now does it?

A $50 gravity fed HVLP “primer” gun, designed to put down a heavy load of thick material quickly with their larger nozzle size will provide all the desirable qualities of spray coating, faster, easier, greater control of application, more uniformity of the applied coating, use of less coating material (if you find that desirable, some liking that foot deep coating look, which can be had in far fewer coats using a large diameter cap), greatly diminished chance of damaging a delicate surface. All this while greatly diminishing the negative side effects of this application method, that of overspray in our case, or thousands to millions of tons per year of VOC’s being rejected into the atmosphere in the automotive and other commercial coating industries using VOC’s as a vehicle.

Increase cap size, “all else be equal” will give three things, more volume of material delivered per unit time, at a larger if less uniform particle size (which in our case for the most part doesn’t matter because of the leveling agents) with less overspray because the particle sizes are so much larger and less buoyant in air. 
Now you know, some, of the rest of the story, with sanity intact hopefully.

Later Larry
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msongs

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so replacing the .08 tip with a .12 tip would be better probably because
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2014, 06:06:24 pm »

of less overspray and it would also apply more coating requiring more care to avoid runs
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Msongs
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smjphoto

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Re: are all HVLP sprayers are really loud?
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2014, 03:34:15 am »

Thanks for that Larry. I appreciate the thoughts and the theory. Well expressed.
Stuart
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