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Author Topic: touching up canvas  (Read 13753 times)

smjphoto

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touching up canvas
« on: January 05, 2014, 09:01:01 pm »

I just ruined a Lyve canvas trying to remove a dark spot i noticed after applying the first coat of Timeless varnish. I think it was a spec of debris but it might have been in the canvas, regardless, in trying to pick it out, I created a white spot in a yellow field of Mustard. I would think I could spot it and then apply the remaining coats of varnish. Does anyone have any experience with this? What kind of "paint" or ink do you use? Applied with a pen or brush? It's a canon ipf 8300 ink set.

Is this a fool's errand?
Thanks for any advice,
Stuart
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Ken Doo

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Re: touching up canvas
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2014, 10:32:05 pm »

Try, http://www.dickblick.com/products/faber-castell-pitt-big-brush-artist-pens/

I keep these on hand for really really minor touch-ups.  48 pen kit.  No guaranteed solution, but when it works, it works.

ken

smjphoto

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Re: touching up canvas
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2014, 11:22:42 pm »

thanks Ken. I really appreciate that.
Stuart
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Paul2660

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Re: touching up canvas
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2014, 11:48:43 pm »

Dark spec was probably a seed, all canvas has them and then always tend to show up in areas like yours.  I have gotten to where I just leave them alone unless it's a real large one and then just reprint.  Once you picked out the seed, you have also picked out the inkjet receptor layer and it will next to impossible to fix it and have it look right in the area of the print you are describing.  On a dark area you can get away with a lot more, but the eye tends to go right to spots like yours.  When you pick out a part of the coating matte or glossy, you expose the inside edges and then will tend to create a ring that is just a bit darker than the surrounding area.  Trying to touch up a pure white spot can be very challenging however.

I have about 200 pens of various, but the Faber Castell Pit markers will do a very good job on matte canvas before you coat it. 
http://www.dickblick.com/products/faber-castell-pitt-artist-pens/

These come in a fine point and you can often get very close to the base color.  It just takes a tiny touch many times.  These markers work on the matte canvas very well, but will not stay down on a coated surface like one with Timeless or Glamour II.   You can use the white edge of the print as a test area.   These same markers will work very well on RC papers or Rag papers with a semi gloss finish, pure glossy and you will see the dot most times. 

Believe it or not, you can sometimes use oil pastels on a coated canvas to touch up a spot.  You can't use them on a glossy uncoated canvas as they will take the glossy surface right off.  But they work very well on edges corners etc. that were rubbed during stretching or moving. 

Paul Caldwell
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Mike Guilbault

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Re: touching up canvas
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2014, 11:57:04 pm »

Yes, thanks Ken.. I'm going to look into those as well.
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bill t.

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Re: touching up canvas
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2014, 01:11:16 am »

Once you've dug a crater, there's simply no way you can conceal it even if you get a perfect color match.  Fixes that look perfect in your shop will stand out like a sore thumb under display lighting.  I always reprint for craters, even valuing my time at minimum wage it's cheaper.  When I see a canvas wart, I gently pick at it with a sharp knife blade in the hope that it's just a wild flake of black Gatorfoam.  If that's not the case, I toss it.  No digging allowed.  Big waste of time.

If you get one of those little seed devils, about the best treatment is to dab at it ever so gently with a white or grey gel pen, picking up any excess with a fingertip.  Try to gray down the seed to the surrounding densities with thin, transparent coats of white.  White and gray give a much better result than futile attempts at color matching, for one as impatient as I am.  I usually don't dab until after the first thin varnish coat is dry.  Almost always works very well except on translucent, smooth skies where you are dead meat no matter what you do, and that's the truth.  If the seed makes a dome you can gently push it down with the point of a cross tip screwdriver, best time to do that is just before the final varnish coat, but usually afterwards is OK too. Just don't make a new crater.  If you have a very pronounced dome, turn the canvas over and subvert the weave underneath the seed with a sharp blade tip, mess up the weave just enough so the seed has a place to go when pushed.

Also, it's worth noting that high gloss varnish finishes are better at concealing defects than matte finishes.

Best practice: don't use canvases with seeds or built-in craters.  The most economical media sometimes costs the most per square foot. 
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smjphoto

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Re: touching up canvas
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2014, 02:51:43 am »

Thanks Paul and Bill. I figure I ought to try to fix it just for the education. I'm already pretty much resigned to reprint for the customer, but if I can salvage the original somewhat, I can keep it for a display of that image to use as a sales tool. For me, these kind of lessons are somewhat painful but pretty effective ways to learn. Of course, if it looks like crap, it will go to the garbage.
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Paul2660

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Re: touching up canvas
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2014, 08:15:51 am »

With Lyve and 800M, I will always pull the canvas forward to do visual scan.  With a bit a good light you can see the larger seeds/trash etc. On the 9900 style printers this is pretty easy with the canvas up top.  My bigger problem with Lyve recently has been large lines of weave going the opposite direction.  These look like a pull in a sweater.  They look terrible on a blue sky or any light solid.  My last 2 rolls have had this in both cases.  

I called BC on the seed issue on some Crystalline once and even sent them some samples, response was that is the nature of the beast, no way to get all the seeds out.  To their credit they have gotten better at it from about 3 years ago.  

Paul Caldwell
« Last Edit: January 06, 2014, 08:51:05 am by Paul2660 »
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Justan

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Re: touching up canvas
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2014, 10:42:15 am »

I agree with the earlier suggestions, in no particular order. Sometimes a defect can be fixed but not always. I’ll add a recommendation to get a 6x or 10x magnifying glass and use a very fine dot pattern to attempt the repair. I use the pens mentioned above plus sometimes also use raw ink form an old cart, depending on which I think makes the closest match without being too dark, and then dab the ink or pen tip to an extremely fine brush (00000, iirc) and then dot the brush on the damaged area. Between the fine brush and the strong magnifying glass, you get the possibility of control and precision where the ink lands. It helps if I haven’t had more than a cup of coffee. This works roughly half the time and if it doesn’t I toss the work and have another cup of coffee. Of course, like anyone, I hate tossing something that’s 5’ long, but I wouldn’t let quality suffer for the sake of my own, uh, thriftiness….

As an added note, it is hopeless to do this once while the coating is wet or after (I use G2). When wet, the coating makes the ink bleed no matter how finely applied and after, the repair never reflects light in the same way.

Mark Lindquist

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Re: touching up canvas
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2014, 12:35:31 pm »

There are several timeless approaches to fixing, but most of them are hit and miss, unfortunately.  Just tossing it is often a good idea.

There are some last ditch fairly interesting hacks, however.  Here's one:

Create an image that is comprised of just the color that you are trying to duplicate.  Make a big square on an 8x10 page size.  Use a semigloss or glossy sheet TURNED OVER, and print on the bak side of the paper.  The ink will be goopy since it is on the back side and you will have about a 5-10 minute window to work.  The ink will, for the most part, match your problem area if you've been diligent in finding the area and making a square of that particular ink patch.

Step 2, use a flat-type toothpick and chew the end until it is mushy and fibers sticking out.  Dab and fool with it until you get a blob-brush at the end.  (You must, of course, pre-chew the toothpick before you print the ink sheet so you will be ready).

Step 3.  Use the toothpick/brush to dab ink from your printed ink sheet and carefully dab ink into the problem area.

Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.  It's a different kind of hack.

Bear in mind that back in the days when we used photo retouching inks and brushes, the idea was to "camouflage" the problem areas, but always, when turned just right in the light, you could see the hack job. 

For the time screwing around, yeah, probably best to just bite the bullet and make a new print, mainly, because these fixes can sometimes come back to bite you.

Like I say - occasionally you can get lucky.  My experience is not being so lucky, plus I don't want that kind of thing hanging over my head.

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Roscolo

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Re: touching up canvas
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2014, 01:41:16 pm »

I just ruined a Lyve canvas trying to remove a dark spot i noticed after applying the first coat of Timeless varnish. I think it was a spec of debris but it might have been in the canvas, regardless, in trying to pick it out, I created a white spot in a yellow field of Mustard. I would think I could spot it and then apply the remaining coats of varnish. Does anyone have any experience with this? What kind of "paint" or ink do you use? Applied with a pen or brush? It's a canon ipf 8300 ink set.

Is this a fool's errand?
Thanks for any advice,
Stuart

Easy fix. Save your old ink carts. Draw out ink with a needle and syringe. Use this and a spotting brush to match the spot. Works every time, and it's a perfect match because you're using the ink you used to print the image with. You need to do this BEFORE you apply varnish. Probably work OK after you varnish it, too, as long as the ink will adhere. Then put your additional coats of varnish on.

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Mark Lindquist

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Re: touching up canvas
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2014, 03:26:06 pm »

Roscolo -

How does it work using your method when there is a complex color of numerous inks mixed together?  I understand when there is a black or other primary color that doesn't need color mixing....

It's a good idea and I'll bet it works great in certain circumstances - thanks for the tip - I'll try it if when I have an easy fix to do.
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Roscolo

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Re: touching up canvas
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2014, 04:03:07 pm »

Roscolo -

How does it work using your method when there is a complex color of numerous inks mixed together?  I understand when there is a black or other primary color that doesn't need color mixing....

It's a good idea and I'll bet it works great in certain circumstances - thanks for the tip - I'll try it if when I have an easy fix to do.


Just blend the inks to match the color. Not a big deal. Helps if you were a good print retoucher / spotter in the past.
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namartinnz

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Re: touching up canvas
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2014, 05:00:18 pm »

I've found acrylic paint to be the most effective for touching up. For holes in the canvas after digging out a seed I'll mix a little paint with plaster filler. I'll then touchup with coating to finish. This won't work with areas with just one colour like a blue sky. Then I'll just make another print, most of the time as mentioned it's more efficient time wise to make a new print.

Mike Guilbault

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Re: touching up canvas
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2014, 10:30:53 pm »

What's the best way to touchup the coating after you've spotted the hole?
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bill t.

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Re: touching up canvas
« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2014, 12:19:52 am »

What's the best way to touchup the coating after you've spotted the hole?

Recoat the whole print.  It's very, very difficult to make local corrections to surface quality on and around areas that have been seriously messed with.
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namartinnz

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Re: touching up canvas
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2014, 06:29:31 am »

Yes, you have to do the whole print. First I apply a small amount around the repair - as in the tip of a needle or match stick. Dampen a cloth, dip in coating (I use Glamour II) and finely wipe over the whole image. Keep applying until the blemish can't be seen. Works most of the time.

Mark Lindquist

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Re: touching up canvas
« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2014, 01:18:15 pm »

Sometimes adding one's personal insight and philosophy to a discussion can be good, and helpful.  Other times, it can be seen as being on a soapbox and arrogant.  At the risk of hoping to contribute in the category of the former, I'll step out on the limb to offer my opinions.

I really think that touching up and selling a print is very risky, if the print is going anywhere of any consequence.  What is at stake is your reputation as a printer, artist, photographer, etc.

In woodworking, there is a phenomenon called "cold creep".  When blemishes are filled with putty or glue/sawdust mixtures, etc., eventually the filled area works it's way up and through the finish, creating a raised area that becomes visible and can be felt by rubbing the fingers over the area.  This can happen when gluing boards together, as well, in certain humidity conditions where the joint will become noticeable.  This raising up, occurs because the material is hygroscopic, meaning susceptible to changes in relative humidity of the surroundings.  Canvas is not unlike wood - we all know it loosens and tightens seasonally, just with changes in humidity.  Like wood that changes hygroscopically, coming and going, expanding and contracting, canvas does the same thing and forces the material up and out, eventually creating a scab or scar.  Of course this takes time, but if a canvas is moved from a dry climate to a wet climate, or vice versa, it can accelerate this process.

What is at the root of this phenomenon is the condition known as co-efficient of expansion and contraction of dissimilar materials.  On a much larger scale, this relates to coefficients of thermal expansion of dissimilar materials.  Of course we are dealing with a microscopic variant of this phenomenon, but it is very real and can in time, become a problem.  Or not.

I think filling any area with a patch is risky, for the reasons stated above.  Chances are likely that at some point, the "fix" will fail.  So the fixing is like a ticking time machine.

Either you subscribe to the theory that these things can go wrong, or you don't.  But in the case that it DOES go wrong, it comes back to reflect on you as a professional.

Here's the thing, basically, what I'm saying.

If you don't care about your customer and don't care if the fix breaks down, then all's good.

If you care about your customer, and you care about your reputation, then NOT GOOD.

A reprint is cheap when it comes to reputation insurance.  Do you believe in yourself as a photographer/printer?  Can you afford to take the risk that something might happen that could reflect poorly on you?

A case in point.  Years ago, I fixed a piece and sold it.  Many years later, the piece ended up in a museum and the fix had failed.  It was visible.  It had failed, visibly, and now it was in a museum, and beyond my control to repair or re-do.  When it comes to museums, there are no re-do's.  I was mortified and to this day, still am, because I was too cheap to do over, or thought I could just fix it and let it go.

Of course, if you think you'll never be in that situation, then I guess just fixing and letting it go, is good enough.  Problem is, "just letting it go" puts the thing out of our control.  It is gone, period.  Never know what's going to happen to it once it leaves your hands and becomes the property of another.

It's when your piece which has failed just gets tossed, however, and the work of another photographer takes its place, that hurts too.  Because the client will never come back.

Like I said, not meaning to be soap-box'y - just offering my perspective after 40 years of experience.

A new print is a CHEAP insurance policy.

FWIW / YMMV
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Roscolo

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Re: touching up canvas
« Reply #18 on: January 09, 2014, 03:04:30 pm »

All true. But if you owned a z3100 with a failing belt with those chiclet things falling off the belt and getting in every other print, one would go broke reprinting it all. Obviously you need to find your spots before you go coating your prints. If you do, matching color and applying ink with a brush is no different than the printhead spraying it on. Canvas is particularly forgiving for this, although I routinely retouched spots on matte papers as well. Back in the days of silver gelatin, EVERY print needed spotting. All this is pretty easy for me to say because I was really good at retouching prints for myself and others. I can retouch a pea sized white area in any print using the printers inks and you will not see it. Once I diagnosed the belt problem on the z3100 and replaced it, the chiclet problem went away. Haven't seen anything like this on the Canon ipf8300.

Reading this thread it sounds like some folks are trying to patch their canvas like a chunk of drywall. In that case, you need to A - reprint and B - change to a different canvas. And inspect your prints BEFORE you start spraying or coating. Kinda like "measure twice, cut once"
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bill t.

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Re: touching up canvas
« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2014, 04:31:51 pm »

Many years later, the piece ended up in a museum and the fix had failed.  It was visible.  It had failed, visibly, and now it was in a museum, and beyond my control to repair or re-do.  When it comes to museums, there are no re-do's.

I gave a defective piece to a friend in city government many years ago, when he objected to my tossing it.  When he passed away, the piece was donated to the city and put in a very public and busy place.  When I point out of the defect to people, nobody seems to care, it just doesn't matter in their opinions.  Easy enough for them to say.  It bugs me, and I can't replace it for reasons too complicated to mention.  What goes around, comes around.  Toss those rejects ASAP.
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