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Author Topic: 28mm LS f/4.5 Aspherical  (Read 7987 times)

alifatemi

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28mm LS f/4.5 Aspherical
« on: January 03, 2014, 03:03:10 pm »

Anybody has tried new Schneider 28mm LS f/4.5 Aspherical on PhaseOne DF body please?
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Doug Peterson

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Re: 28mm LS f/4.5 Aspherical
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2014, 03:04:52 pm »

DT Test: Phase One 28mm D, Schneider 28mm LS, Rodenstock 32mm HR

Gist: Results will vary based on which back you're using. With a P40+ the 28LS is very good. With an IQ280 it's weak in the corners.

It also depends a LOT on what you're comparing to. Most SLR ultra-wides are pretty weak in the corners when used with a high res sensor. If you're comparing to a tech camera wide like the Rodenstock 28HR or 32HR it's night and day.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2014, 03:06:27 pm by Doug Peterson »
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alifatemi

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Re: 28mm LS f/4.5 Aspherical
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2014, 04:39:05 pm »

DT Test: Phase One 28mm D, Schneider 28mm LS, Rodenstock 32mm HR

Gist: Results will vary based on which back you're using. With a P40+ the 28LS is very good. With an IQ280 it's weak in the corners.

It also depends a LOT on what you're comparing to. Most SLR ultra-wides are pretty weak in the corners when used with a high res sensor. If you're comparing to a tech camera wide like the Rodenstock 28HR or 32HR it's night and day.

Thanks Dough just a question: where is the focus plane? Trees including corners or tower buildings in the above center? if it is the latter, I can't judge the corner sharpness because neither lenses have a good corners at all. it maybe so duo to out of focus corners rather than lens aberration.Any comment please? 
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Paul2660

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Re: 28mm LS f/4.5 Aspherical
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2014, 11:59:53 pm »

The 28 LS as I recall has the same number of elements/ groups as the original Mamiya 28.  Schneider added the leaf shutter but I don't think they made any other optical improvements.   I owned 2 of the Mamiya versions and both were very soft in the corners and wide open to around F 6.3 you could see a bit of smearing.  By F11 I found it very good on my P45 but on the IQ260 I still got a bit of softness.  It's been said many times thst the 28is great 35mm lens after you crop.  Also it's not very filter friendly.  But if you need flash sync of 1/1600 with a ultra wide and fast accurate AF the 28mm LS is a good solution.  If you go for a used lens, as I remember the 28 LS is one of the lenses that has firmware on the lens, make sure the firmware wuss current as there were several enhancements added over time with firmware and with either the DF or DF+ body the lens needs to be current to get the best AF performance. 

As for wides on a 35mm my results differ than the others posts.  I get excellent results on the nikon 14-24 by around  F 6.3.  Overall it's better than either the Zeiss 21 or 18mm.  Huge lens and heavy but I carry it knowing I can trust the results. 

Back to MF, my quest for a sharp wide led me the tech camera/Rod 28 and there is no comparison to the Phase 28mm.  The 32 is much more versatile since it will shift to at least 15mm but it's just too expensive for my budget.  Plus it seems to be a bit more delicate than the 28 or 23mm Rods since it has a larger mass in front of the Copal shutter. 

If possible try to setup a side by side demo with a dealer.  Rod 28 vs Phase LS 28. 

Paul Caldwell


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Paul Caldwell
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alifatemi

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Re: 28mm LS f/4.5 Aspherical
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2014, 12:16:19 am »

Thanks Paul but I really don't need high speed flash sync just picture quality is what I really need.
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Paul2660

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Re: 28mm LS f/4.5 Aspherical
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2014, 01:25:35 am »

I would still try both, as Phase One may have increased quality sampling from Schenider.  My first 28mm Mamiya was terrible, off almost on the 1/3 of the right side, Mamiya quickly replaced it with a new lens, which I found OK with the old AFDIII, but with the DF (not the DF+) I was able to get more consistent focus.  However the amount of falloff until F11 - F14 really became an issue.   

The other reason would be sheer mass and size as the 28mm LS is a rather large lens, larger in height  than the Rod 28mm mounted to Arca and probably a bit heavier.  I tended to carry it around a lot but did not shoot it since most times I needed a filter combination.  I then tried it for night work briefly but at F4.5 to F6.3 the corners top and bottom were so soft and smeared it made more sense to stay with the Mamiya 35mm  F3.5.   

BTW, I would love to see a reworked totally 35mm lens or the never released but much talked about Mamiya 45-90 zoom. 

Paul Caldwell


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Doug Peterson

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Re: 28mm LS f/4.5 Aspherical
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2014, 11:13:22 am »

Thanks Dough just a question: where is the focus plane? Trees including corners or tower buildings in the above center? if it is the latter, I can't judge the corner sharpness because neither lenses have a good corners at all. it maybe so duo to out of focus corners rather than lens aberration.Any comment please? 

My comments regarding focus, and the non flat-field nature of the focus plane, is in the article I linked to.

Christopher Arnoldi

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Re: 28mm LS f/4.5 Aspherical
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2014, 03:26:20 am »

I have the Phase One 4.5/28 mm and have tested the LS version. I could not see any differences in optical performance. I've tested at all apertures. The only aperture that I use for architecture work is f16 and then I use the lens profile in Capture One and all lens corrections. The result is acceptable. With my older back I shot the Rodenstock 35 HR and it has a little bit mustache distorsion. The Phase One 28 mm is better here. I also have the 24 mm Schneider. But with the centerfilter you have 4 x longer exposure times. So with the 28 mm and the DF you have a combination to work very fast and efficient. Additional I use the Mamiya 24 mm fisheye and correct it with PTGui. Perfect combination.
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BillOConnor

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Re: 28mm LS f/4.5 Aspherical
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2014, 09:46:58 am »

I've heard of other shooters using a fisheye lens and correcting away the fisheye look, but I thought they used another program, Alpa's? Does anyone else have experience with PTGui and the 24mm Mamiya Fisheye? Or the Alpa LC program?
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alifatemi

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Re: 28mm LS f/4.5 Aspherical
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2014, 11:23:51 am »

I have the Phase One 4.5/28 mm and have tested the LS version. I could not see any differences in optical performance. I've tested at all apertures. The only aperture that I use for architecture work is f16 and then I use the lens profile in Capture One and all lens corrections. The result is acceptable. With my older back I shot the Rodenstock 35 HR and it has a little bit mustache distorsion. The Phase One 28 mm is better here. I also have the 24 mm Schneider. But with the centerfilter you have 4 x longer exposure times. So with the 28 mm and the DF you have a combination to work very fast and efficient. Additional I use the Mamiya 24 mm fisheye and correct it with PTGui. Perfect combination.

On what platform did you try R.35HR?
« Last Edit: January 09, 2014, 03:14:44 pm by alifatemi »
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Christopher Arnoldi

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Re: 28mm LS f/4.5 Aspherical
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2014, 04:24:06 pm »

On what platform did you try R.35HR?

I have a Sinar p3 with Sinar m as shutter. It works fine, now with a IQ160. But 2 years ago I had a Sinarback 54H for 10 years. Since the IQ160 has a larger image circle than SB54H, I can not use the Rodenstock 35 HR anymore.
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henrikfoto

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Re: 28mm LS f/4.5 Aspherical
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2014, 06:01:35 pm »

I have a Sinar p3 with Sinar m as shutter. It works fine, now with a IQ160. But 2 years ago I had a Sinarback 54H for 10 years. Since the IQ160 has a larger image circle than SB54H, I can not use the Rodenstock 35 HR anymore.

What do you think the Sinarback 54H pics compare to the IQ160?
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alifatemi

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Re: 28mm LS f/4.5 Aspherical
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2014, 10:58:17 pm »

I have a Sinar p3 with Sinar m as shutter. It works fine, now with a IQ160. But 2 years ago I had a Sinarback 54H for 10 years. Since the IQ160 has a larger image circle than SB54H, I can not use the Rodenstock 35 HR anymore.

But what was the difference between DF and Sinar in corners? do you believe with DF you had a better picture even in corners?
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Christopher Arnoldi

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Re: 28mm LS f/4.5 Aspherical
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2014, 11:38:07 am »

What do you think the Sinarback 54H pics compare to the IQ160?

In 4-shot the Sinar files were very fine. The Liveview was more stable on the Sinar. I had no problems withe Sinar workflow, but the IQ160 with Capture One is easier to use.
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Christopher Arnoldi

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Re: 28mm LS f/4.5 Aspherical
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2014, 11:43:33 am »

But what was the difference between DF and Sinar in corners? do you believe with DF you had a better picture even in corners?

Yes, with the bigger field of view with the PhaseOne 28 mm you have place to crop, much more resolution, no distortion and light falloff and no problems with color cast. The 28mm is not the best lens, but not so bad at f16 + software corrections
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alifatemi

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Re: 28mm LS f/4.5 Aspherical
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2014, 01:56:59 pm »

Yes, with the bigger field of view with the PhaseOne 28 mm you have place to crop, much more resolution, no distortion and light falloff and no problems with color cast. The 28mm is not the best lens, but not so bad at f16 + software corrections

your experience may raise controversy since many photographers believe tech camera have night and day better quality in corners compare to DF body. that's interesting.
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Christopher Arnoldi

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Re: 28mm LS f/4.5 Aspherical
« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2014, 12:11:32 pm »

your experience may raise controversy since many photographers believe tech camera have night and day better quality in corners compare to DF body. that's interesting.

With my Sinarback 54H I invested in a 35 HR, 60 HR and Schneider 24 XL. Than I bought a IQ 160 and DF, Phase One 28, 45, 55 LS, 80 LS, 120, 150 LS, Mamiya 300, all new. Because of the bigger image circle of the IQ 160 I could not use my glass for the Sinar p3 anymore. No one wants this glass now anymore. I have not enough money to invest into the Rodenstock 28 at the moment. So I tried out the PhaseOne 28 + DF Combo with software correction. All in all it's much better than the 22 MP files of the Sinarback, because it's just 60 MP. And I am happy not to have to do a white shading for every picture. I now have a much faster workflow. Of course the Rodenstock 28 mm is better than the PhaseOne 28 mm. I can only speak for the Rodenstock 35 HR, with has bad mustache distorsion. Not so the Phase One 28 with software correction.

For really wide views I love the Mamiya 24 mm fish eye + PTGui, because it has no light falloff and is very sharp even in the corners (at f16). You only have to do CA correction in CaptureOne.

I always liked top glass over software correction. But with 60 MP and clients with no time I am happy to come to work with the easier workflow of a complete system. It's also nice to have the focal length shown in the meta data. I don`t want to miss that any more.
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Paul2660

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Re: 28mm LS f/4.5 Aspherical
« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2014, 12:33:00 pm »

Everyone's take will always be different.  For me the cost of a DF+ and 28mm mamiya or Phase One 28mm LS is about the same as the cost of the Rod 28mm mounted for Arca.

I agree that at F16 the 28mm Phase One LS 28 or Mamiya version without the LS shutter is a good lens, and most times the entire frame is very good.  However I wanted a bit more, like having the ability of to use F 5.6 to F11 and still have good results as available light varies and conditions I shoot in can turn in a minute. 

The Phase One 28mm lens is not very filter friendly and IMO is pretty hard to work out for a nodal pan.  The only solution I saw for filters that worked on the Phase 28mm was a makeshift setup I built that fit over the lens shade tulip.  I believe Phase One at one time sold a solution at least it was announced a few years ago.  But it's still a bit cumbersome to use similar to how the Nikon 14-24 setup works. 

For the 28mm, focus is very easy with the Rodenstock once you figure out the available hyperfocal range. 

The LCC process is cumbersome and it would be nice not to have to work with it I agree, but my bigger issue was the $$ of the 28MM and Phase body for the results.  Plus the ability to use tilt on the 28mm focal has really been great.

Paul Caldwell
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alifatemi

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Re: 28mm LS f/4.5 Aspherical
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2014, 11:02:39 pm »

What about phase one af35mm f3/5? Ant experience?
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Paul2660

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Re: 28mm LS f/4.5 Aspherical
« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2014, 08:28:17 am »

On a 40MP sensor it's not a bad lens.  It starts to show the same problems as the 28 on the 60MP sensors.  Mine was a bit better on smearing than my 28.  F11 to f16 acceptable results. 

Paul Caldwell
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Paul Caldwell
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