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Author Topic: Wise to purchase a CFV-39?  (Read 8867 times)

nathantw

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Wise to purchase a CFV-39?
« on: December 10, 2013, 02:43:56 pm »

Hi, this is my first post, however, I have lurked here for quite a while and have noticed that many of you are quite knowledgeable on medium format and smaller format camera sensors. I have a chance to purchase a Hasselblad CFV-39 for less than $6k, however, I'm not sure I should buy it. It has a sensor that's over 5 years old in technology and as you all know, a lot of changes have taken place in the past 5 years. I currently have a Hasselblad system from 60mm - 180mm, so I know all about the ins and outs of the 'blad system. I owned a Kodak DCS Pro Back Plus and liked it but decided I wanted something where I wasn't tethered to a battery. I also have a Nikon D700 with a full compliment of lenses, prime and zoom.

So, my question, do you think it's wise to buy a CFV-39 that has 5 year old technology in it or buy one of the newer cameras, such as a Sony A7R, Nikon D800, or even a Nikon Df, since I take a lot of low light pictures? You can see my "style" at www.flickr.com/nathantw.

What do you think? Should I just stay with a Nikon (or Sony) or should I spring for the medium format back?

Thanks!

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Doug Peterson

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Re: Wise to purchase a CFV-39?
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2013, 03:01:00 pm »

If you've been lurking here for a while you've already read this advice, but I still think it's important...

It's very backwards to start with "I found a deal on XYZ camera, is it a good fit for me?".

You should FIRST start with the question "what camera(s) would be a good fit for me?" and THEN go find a deal on that camera.

By deal we mean of course total price, but also service, warranty, condition, support, accessories, training, location/ease/confidence of transaction etc.

There will ALWAYS be a deal to be had on any given back. It's easier to regret buying the wrong system for needs than it is to regret missing out on any given deal.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2013, 03:08:03 pm by Doug Peterson »
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nathantw

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Re: Wise to purchase a CFV-39?
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2013, 03:05:07 pm »

Good advice, Doug. I actually love both the Nikon system and the Hasselblad. That's one of the reasons why I'm torn. I actually think I should get the Hasselblad back, but on the other hand, the D800 and Df sure are nice.
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Wise to purchase a CFV-39?
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2013, 03:08:08 pm »

This post is NOT to say that the CFV-39 isn't a good fit for you. It may be a perfect fit. It may be an awful fit. We'd need to know a lot more about you, and your needs, and your preferences. Especially regarding whether you expect your next camera (whatever it is) to do. Any digital back will not do everything well (e.g. no ultra-high ISO, no video) but the things it does well tend to be done extraordinarily well. So if you're looking to REPLACE your current system and still be able to do every shot on your Flickr then MFD is not for you. For instance the baseball pitcher and racecar shots would be outside the comfort zone for a MFD system for several reasons (slower AF tracking, limited selection of super-fast super-long lenses, lower framerate for continuous shooting etc).

If you instead want to supplement your system you'd find that MFD would do a fantastic job with your landscapes (especially on a tech camera) and the colorful macro flower shots and food shots are prime for a MFD system. And you could use your existing dSLR for the sports/action shots and other work better suited for that tool.

Doug Peterson

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Re: Wise to purchase a CFV-39?
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2013, 03:13:38 pm »

As for age, I find that entirely unimportant for a digital back. There are many questions you should answer before buying a back. Questions like "what ISO range am I ok being limited to" and "do I need long exposure capability" and "what bodies do I want to be able to mount on" and "what software will I be running these through" - but if the answer to these sorts of questions are all positive, then it doesn't matter if the back is 1 day old or 1 decade old.

As illustration of that point, we have many clients still shooting with H25 and H20 backs (first released in 2001). These backs are tethered-only (no LCD, no CF card) and really only perform well at ISO 50 and ISO 100, and require a separate wakeup cable when working on a large format or tech camera (not good for spontaneous shooting). But for specific category of photographer (specifically our large-scale production houses, they are still ideal tools - better than the latest and greatest dSLR. With no moving parts, they last and last and last. They last so long their number 1 problem was the sync port wearing out from being plugged in and out so often - so Phase One made future backs with user-replaceable sync ports.

When your camera isn't doing what you want/need it to then the next generation can't possibly come soon enough. But when your camera is a great fit for your needs you'll find you care less when there is "something new" released.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2013, 03:18:52 pm by Doug Peterson »
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nathantw

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Re: Wise to purchase a CFV-39?
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2013, 03:21:31 pm »

Interesting take. I rarely use autofocus so it's not a priority. Video isn't important either. I think the system would be would be more of an addition to what I use than to replace what I have, so that's a good thought process. The other message you mentioned support for the item also. Since it's a Hasselblad I just assumed that Hasselblad would fix it should anything go wrong.

I don't do color very well, which is why I wanted a digital back. Shooting color chromes (slides) and then scanning them is okay, but there's a lot of work to get the colors right to just match the original slide. I love black and white film, so I'd stick with the 'blad for that.

Oh, I'm okay with ISO 50 - 100. I used to use Kodachrome 25. On the Nikon D700 it's really easy to shoot at ISO 800 and above, but that's a different way of shooting than using medium format. I'm okay with using tripods, so a slow ISO back is okay too. I guess I just need to decide if I want to spend the money on the back or just get a new DSLR at some point.

I think the "problem" I'm having is that the D800E and A7R seems to perform just as well as the Hasselblad back. I have an adapter that will allow me to use the Hasselblad lenses on the Nikon cameras. The CFV-39, according to some, has dynamic range and color to its advantage, but all the other advantages go to the smaller, faster formats. This is what makes it a hard decision.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2013, 03:30:32 pm by nathantw »
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Wise to purchase a CFV-39?
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2013, 03:28:19 pm »

It sounds like your needs would be well met by MFD. The thing is there are a LOT of options in medium format at the 5-10k price range. So if you're serious about dropping that kind of money on MFD you'd do yourself a dis-service by not starting off with a wide net and asking which of those many options is best for you.

I suggest you check out some recent similar threads:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=84916.0
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=84777.0

Heavy emphasis is given my many forum members to TRY what you are considering. Whether by borrowing from a friend, trying it out free at a dealer's location, or renting one (dealer's can give you credit for your rental towards your purchase - at least we can).

sarinale

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Re: Wise to purchase a CFV-39?
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2013, 04:10:17 pm »

Hi, I am not a dealer. My advice would be NOT to buy the Hasselblad back. I have an H3d 39 (same back really) and a Phase P30+ and consider it a mistake to buy the Hasselblad. I am only using the Phase unfortunately. The build quality, the software (Capture One is great), even the quality of the files is just so much better in my experience.

I would recommend you spend a bit more and get a Phase One or a Leaf back (relatively common in v mount it seems).
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TMARK

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Re: Wise to purchase a CFV-39?
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2013, 04:14:21 pm »

Its a perfect little solution for a V.

However, the CFV has some features which are deal breakers.

First you can't mount the back in portrait orientation.  This is so horribly wrong, for me anyway.  Ever try to shoot V Blad sideways?  I have.  It sucks.

Second, for longer exposures, like 1/15, or maybe it was 1/8, you have to go into the menue and set the back for the longer exposure.  Not a deal breaker, but annoying.

Third, Capture One doesn't take the files.
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nathantw

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Re: Wise to purchase a CFV-39?
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2013, 05:33:21 pm »

Thank you, Sarinale and Tmark. Those are really, really helpful to know those facts. Going to the menu to choose slower shutter speeds is crazy. I would not like that feature.

I think the main reason why I wanted the CFV was to eliminate cords and cables. I guess if I replaced my 553ELX with a 555ELD I wouldn't have the problem. I think I'm starting to lean towards getting a DSLR when the time is right. I was only going to jump on the CFV-39 because it was here now and you know how fast things on sale go. Get it now or it's gone.

I'll stick with using film on the Hasselblad. I used to be okay with bringing film to the store or developing it myself, but not any more. I've just been spoiled with digital now that I have it.

One other thing I'm starting to remember. When I had the Kodak Pro Back Plus I didn't enjoy using the Hasselblad like a manual camera, but it was indeed a digital. So, when I'm outdoors having to to take a meter reading, translate it on the lens, then focus manually (and very carefully) to get the shot was a bit much. I know there are a lot of people who don't mind this process and for some reason I'm fine doing that with film, but when it comes to digital I guess I expect a little more automation. A 203FE would help, but that's an extra expense. A H-series would be good, but again, extra expense. I already have the lenses I want in medium format so I'm not really prepared to buy more or start all over again.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2013, 05:58:01 pm by nathantw »
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Ken R

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Re: Wise to purchase a CFV-39?
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2013, 06:10:18 pm »

I was only going to jump on the CFV-39 because it was here now and you know how fast things on sale go. Get it now or it's gone.

Bad idea. There are always good deals available. I mean if it were that you could get a PhaseOne IQ back for well under $10k then id say heck buy it! But that would be an unbelievable deal. Too good to be true actually.

Like it was suggested in a previous post the Hasselblad V is not a really good platform for digital. There are much better alternatives in SLR form and technical camera.

The Nikon Df is not a high value alternative but it looks like a great low light / street camera. It is significantly smaller and lighter than the D800/E and D700 you have.

I handled the Sony A7/A7R cameras and they are good (image quality is superb) but the Af is not that great with non Sony E mount lenses and you loose the optical viewfinder in DSLRs obviously which is preferable for manual focusing although the EVF in the Sony have some nice focusing aids. The A7R is a great landscape camera and it is very light and compact so it is superb for travel.

If you do not mind using a tripod and working more slowly a technical camera from Arca Swiss / Cambo / Alpa w/ Digital Back is an awesome choice for landscape. VERY small and light lenses are available while still having superb image quality (even while using camera movements) and there are great light and compact options in camera bodies as well (depending on the features you need). They get a bit of cult following for a reason. (Im a member :D )

 
« Last Edit: December 10, 2013, 06:16:04 pm by Ken R »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Wise to purchase a CFV-39?
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2013, 07:00:33 pm »

Hi,

I don't have A7/A7r but I own both Alpha 99 and Alpha 77. The EVF at 11X magnification is far superior to any optical viewfinder for accurate focus, if you have time to use it.

Best regards
Erik




I handled the Sony A7/A7R cameras and they are good (image quality is superb) but the Af is not that great with non Sony E mount lenses and you loose the optical viewfinder in DSLRs obviously which is preferable for manual focusing although the EVF in the Sony have some nice focusing aids. The A7R is a great landscape camera and it is very light and compact so it is superb for travel.


 
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Joe Towner

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Re: Wise to purchase a CFV-39?
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2013, 07:55:24 pm »

A H-series would be good, but again, extra expense. I already have the lenses I want in medium format so I'm not really prepared to buy more or start all over again.
You can use the Hasselblad CF adapter to use your V lenses on a H body -

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=362313&is=REG&Q=&A=details

So a H1/H2/H4x with a Phase One back (for digital) and a film back is an easy option, plus you can use it with a technical camera.

-Joe
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Ken R

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Re: Wise to purchase a CFV-39?
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2013, 08:07:04 pm »

You can use the Hasselblad CF adapter to use your V lenses on a H body -

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=362313&is=REG&Q=&A=details

So a H1/H2/H4x with a Phase One back (for digital) and a film back is an easy option, plus you can use it with a technical camera.

-Joe


That is my setup. I use my IQ160 on an H1 and on an Arca Swiss Tech camera. I mostly use the Arca but the H1 works great when shooting people. I did some tests using the H1 and sensor + and it is a great combination for working handheld on location.
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paulmoorestudio

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Re: Wise to purchase a CFV-39?
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2013, 09:47:43 pm »

Sounds like you have the v system already so working in that mode is understood, the cfv39 is very good back akin to tradition film
parameters.. iso 50 to 400 and 400 is a push..I shoot with a 39 and in the right conditions it looks fantastic.  I don't mind phocus as I learned on flex color and phocus is better so I have no qualms about hasselblad.  18-22 mp does a lot with a MFB and the 39 is just gravy 99% of the time.
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bcooter

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Re: Wise to purchase a CFV-39?
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2013, 03:52:08 am »

Hi, this is my first post, however, I have lurked here for quite a while and have noticed that many of you are quite knowledgeable on medium format and smaller format camera sensors. I have a chance to purchase a Hasselblad CFV-39 for less than $6k, however, I'm not sure I should buy it. It has a sensor that's over 5 years old in technology and as you all know, a lot of changes have taken place in the past 5 years. I currently have a Hasselblad system from 60mm - 180mm, so I know all about the ins and outs of the 'blad system. I owned a Kodak DCS Pro Back Plus and liked it but decided I wanted something where I wasn't tethered to a battery. I also have a Nikon D700 with a full compliment of lenses, prime and zoom.

So, my question, do you think it's wise to buy a CFV-39 that has 5 year old technology in it or buy one of the newer cameras, such as a Sony A7R, Nikon D800, or even a Nikon Df, since I take a lot of low light pictures? You can see my "style" at www.flickr.com/nathantw.

What do you think? Should I just stay with a Nikon (or Sony) or should I spring for the medium format back?

Thanks!





If you want the look of medium format and like the dslr form factor Leica S2s are available for under around $9,000 lightly used from dealers.  This may seem higher than your original post, but the Leicas autofocus with adapters for  contax and Hasselblad H lenses and also non autofocus adapters for the v mount, mamiya 645 and pentax 67 lenses and of course leica glass.   After all it is a Leica and I doubt seriously if it will drop much lower than the current price.

This was a nice, real world test on medium format backs vs. the S2

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/3214761610/leica-s2-against-megapixel-arms-race



IMO

BC
« Last Edit: December 11, 2013, 04:44:40 am by bcooter »
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Douglas Fairbank

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Re: Wise to purchase a CFV-39?
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2013, 04:45:10 am »

If you love the Hasselblad V camera that you have, the CFV could be a good choice for you because it will feel so familiar to use, although I have to accept the point about the landscape only setup.
The shutter speed setting really would not be a problem for you, it is very easy to change and only controls the time that the chip is receptive to light so unless you crank and re-shoot at high speed a longer speed setting would not affect the operation. It is usual to select the shortest setting expected to suppress the noise that is inherent with all chips, experiment and see for yourself.
So Capture 1 does not take Hasselblad files (why is that?) but you can use Hasselblad's own Phocus software, it costs nothing to download and use the program and it has not limitations so you have nothing to lose by trying it and it will give you the best results possible from the back, you will instantly gain the library of lens corrections for all the V series lenses. If it does not work for you Adobe Lightroom is an alternative.

There is lots of good advice earlier in this thread and I am clearly biased so please take that into account
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Wise to purchase a CFV-39?
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2013, 03:48:33 pm »

Hi,

I had a Sonnar 150/4 I liked. So I bought a P45+ and a Hasselblad 555ELD to put it on. I bought 3 more lenses for the ELD, which I found haptically better than old Sonnar 150/4 so I replaced it with a newer one. After that I had a few iterations with viewfinders, ending up with a PM5. Lacked wide angle and ended up with 40/4.

I am quite happy with the combo, it works for me.

Best regards
Erik

If you love the Hasselblad V camera that you have, the CFV could be a good choice for you because it will feel so familiar to use, although I have to accept the point about the landscape only setup.
The shutter speed setting really would not be a problem for you, it is very easy to change and only controls the time that the chip is receptive to light so unless you crank and re-shoot at high speed a longer speed setting would not affect the operation. It is usual to select the shortest setting expected to suppress the noise that is inherent with all chips, experiment and see for yourself.
So Capture 1 does not take Hasselblad files (why is that?) but you can use Hasselblad's own Phocus software, it costs nothing to download and use the program and it has not limitations so you have nothing to lose by trying it and it will give you the best results possible from the back, you will instantly gain the library of lens corrections for all the V series lenses. If it does not work for you Adobe Lightroom is an alternative.

There is lots of good advice earlier in this thread and I am clearly biased so please take that into account
« Last Edit: December 11, 2013, 05:34:37 pm by ErikKaffehr »
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