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Author Topic: I would like to understand the MF look.  (Read 61623 times)

Christoph C. Feldhaim

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Re: I would like to understand the MF look.
« Reply #100 on: December 05, 2013, 04:10:48 pm »

I still miss the Mamiya Press I sold.
But the bulk killed me.
I now shoot Mamiya 7 II.
Love it.
Sharpness, bokeh and all.

Nick-T

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Re: I would like to understand the MF look.
« Reply #101 on: December 05, 2013, 04:29:42 pm »

Presumedly a 500 series hassy with a 16mp CFV would still give the MF look, right?

If someone says yes are you going to say they are wrong because of the cropped sensor? :)

Nick-T
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KevinA

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Re: I would like to understand the MF look.
« Reply #102 on: December 05, 2013, 05:20:19 pm »

No not laying a trap, if it ain't about quantity of pixels, the MF look should be there with any MF back. Maybe the 16cfv was not the best example (at least it was square), a P25 might of been a better choice.
Do the older less pixel endowed backs still cut it with the "Look" dr etc. Just wondering how they stack up against modern NikoCano cameras, do they have as much "Look".
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Sheldon N

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Re: I would like to understand the MF look.
« Reply #103 on: December 05, 2013, 05:21:00 pm »

Yeah, but, I've seen cat shots from DMF gear on Flickr that have the MFD look.  These are far from considered, high production photos by experienced photographers. 

That's why I said 75%. :)

It's not that there isn't a MFD look, I actually think there is and discussed it in a previous post. It's just that often people are seeing things in photos that aren't just coming from the MFD camera.

And typically people don't lust over buying high end MFD gear based on cat photographs.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: I would like to understand the MF look.
« Reply #104 on: December 05, 2013, 05:47:28 pm »

Hi,

It depends on what you mean by the MFD look:

1: Color rendition will not be affected

2: Short DoF and out of focus rendition will be affected as the crop factor is larger on the older backs.

3: If viewed at actual pixels larger pixel will have more acutance all other factors kept constant

4: Larger pixels increase risk for aliasing artefacts, like moiré and fake detail

5: Even 16 MP is quite enough for decent size prints like A2

Best regards
Erik

No not laying a trap, if it ain't about quantity of pixels, the MF look should be there with any MF back. Maybe the 16cfv was not the best example (at least it was square), a P25 might of been a better choice.
Do the older less pixel endowed backs still cut it with the "Look" dr etc. Just wondering how they stack up against modern NikoCano cameras, do they have as much "Look".
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bcooter

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Re: I would like to understand the MF look.
« Reply #105 on: December 05, 2013, 08:44:59 pm »

This is a 21mp back on a contax.


22mpx leaf back on a contax


BC
« Last Edit: December 05, 2013, 08:48:26 pm by bcooter »
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synn

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Re: I would like to understand the MF look.
« Reply #106 on: December 05, 2013, 09:03:26 pm »

Amazing shots,sir. For the lack of a better term, very "Filmic".
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BobDavid

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Re: I would like to understand the MF look.
« Reply #107 on: December 05, 2013, 10:18:26 pm »

Here's a photo montage for an art show. Guess what the elements were photographed with: a) MFT; b) APS-C; c) FF 35mm; d) MFB.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 12:36:40 pm by BobDavid »
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alifatemi

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Re: I would like to understand the MF look.
« Reply #108 on: December 06, 2013, 12:51:14 am »

I had lots of aliasing with iQ260, considering its pixel size and resolution, it was strange for me
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: I would like to understand the MF look.
« Reply #109 on: December 06, 2013, 12:57:27 am »

Hi,

In a sense it is nice to hear that sampling theory still works. Good lens and exact work leads to aliasing. You get aliasing if the lens outresolves a sensor and most good lenses do.

Small apertures may help, and many subjects are quite tolerant about aliasing.

Best regards
Erik


I had lots of aliasing with iQ260, considering its pixel size and resolution, it was strange for me
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 01:02:55 am by ErikKaffehr »
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bcooter

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Re: I would like to understand the MF look.
« Reply #110 on: December 06, 2013, 02:41:17 am »

Amazing shots,sir. For the lack of a better term, very "Filmic".

Thank You.

BC
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ondebanks

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Re: I would like to understand the MF look.
« Reply #111 on: December 06, 2013, 08:56:28 am »

Presumedly a 500 series hassy with a 16mp CFV would still give the MF look, right?

Yes; at least in my case (DCS645M, same sensor as the 16mp CFV), it does give a distinctive look that I cannot reproduce on my 5DII, even with the same M645 lens mounted on both cameras.

Ray
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amsp

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Re: I would like to understand the MF look.
« Reply #112 on: December 06, 2013, 10:01:28 am »

I'd say the 9 micron backs have a 'look' all of their own.

In comparison to the latest and greatest they are lower in resolution and are prone to moiré, but I know photographers who have those latest and greatest and yet still place a value on the larger pixel backs.

This is exactly why I've kept my P25 through the years, and sold so many other digital cameras I've used.
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alifatemi

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Re: I would like to understand the MF look.
« Reply #113 on: December 06, 2013, 05:55:51 pm »

SCHNEIDER 80mm f/2.8 taken at f/11
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Telecaster

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Re: I would like to understand the MF look.
« Reply #114 on: December 06, 2013, 09:51:36 pm »

Here's a photo montage for an art show. Guess what the elements were photographed with: a) MFT; b) APS-C; c) FF 35mm; d) MFB.

As an electric guitar player I appreciate your inclusion of a vacuum tube (valve if you're British) in your montage.   ;D

-Dave-
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Telecaster

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Re: I would like to understand the MF look.
« Reply #115 on: December 06, 2013, 10:02:20 pm »

This is a 21mp back on a contax.

22mpx leaf back on a contax

BC, these are so not what I do...which is why I like 'em so much.   :D  I love your use of color. You grab it by the b*lls and make it do what you want, which is an approach I very much respect.

-Dave-
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: I would like to understand the MF look.
« Reply #116 on: December 07, 2013, 12:46:40 am »

Hi,

I am looking at aliasing on my P45+ and stopping down to f/11 doesn't help. At f/22 it goes away completely.

It depends a bit on what aliasing means to you. But as a general rule, if the lens has a decent amount of MTF at the pixel size you will get aliasing. The question is merely if it matters. It doesn't show up in landscape shooting that much. I also don't know if they would be visible in print. Just converting to JPEG reduces some artefacts, as it smears colour.

The kind of aliasing you will see are:

Broken hair, strains and wires - nothing to do about, it is the nature of things

Fake detail, detail that aliasing invented (image on top P45+, image below Alpha 77 (80 resp 85 mm lens at 4 m), this pair of images indicates that small pixels possibly with OLP filtering really help. P45+ has 6.8 my pixels and Alpha 77 has 3.9 my pixels.


Color aliasing - thin structures shift in color


Moiré color or monochrome pattern - can be reduced


This illustrates the effect of small apertures:


Best regards
Erik




SCHNEIDER 80mm f/2.8 taken at f/11
« Last Edit: December 07, 2013, 08:44:34 am by ErikKaffehr »
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TMARK

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Re: I would like to understand the MF look.
« Reply #117 on: December 07, 2013, 12:54:51 am »


A 6L6 if I'm not mistaken. I have an amp that takes 12 6L6s in the power stage. Suck to retube in matched pairs.

As an electric guitar player I appreciate your inclusion of a vacuum tube (valve if you're British) in your montage.   ;D

-Dave-
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bcooter

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Re: I would like to understand the MF look.
« Reply #118 on: December 07, 2013, 04:20:37 am »

BC, these are so not what I do...which is why I like 'em so much.   :D  I love your use of color. You grab it by the b*lls and make it do what you want, which is an approach I very much respect.

-Dave-

Thanks Dave.


BC
« Last Edit: December 07, 2013, 02:22:39 pm by bcooter »
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Ken R

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Re: I would like to understand the MF look.
« Reply #119 on: December 07, 2013, 08:25:13 am »

Hi,

I am looking at aliasing on my P45+ and stopping down to f/11 doesn't help. At f/22 it goes away completely.

It depends a bit on what aliasing means to you. But as a general rule, if the lens has a decent amount of MTF at the pixel size you will get aliasing. The question is merely if it matters. It doesn't show up in landscape shooting that much. I also don't know if they would be visible in print. Just converting to JPEG reduces some artefacts, as it smears colour.

The kind of aliasing you will see are:

Broken hair, strains and wires - nothing to do about, it is the nature of things

Fake detail, detail that aliasing invented (image on top P45+, image below Alpha 77 (80 resp 85 mm lens at 4 m), this pair of images indicates that small pixels possibly with OLP filtering really help. P45+ has 6.8 my pixels and Alpha 77 has 3.9 my pixels.


Color aliasing - thin structures shift in color


Moiré color or monochrome pattern - can be reduced


This illustrates the effect of small apertures:


Best regards
Erik





Why is the feather much larger in the A77 image?
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