Epson 3800 - problem printing certain yellows

[Robert Ash]

Hi,

I'm having the problem described in this post:

http://www.justanswer.com/printers/5yutx-problem-epson-3800-printer-specifically-color-yellow.html

I've cleaned my heads a number of times. It happens with Canson Platine but also with Epson Luster, Exhib Fiber, etc.

The OP's response to the technician's first response describes perfectly which yellows I'm having problems with. It's only certain yellows, the weak yellows you get when you Google on "yellow cars" print fine -- it's when sunsets contain complex yellows that the printer won't print them. They display just fine on screen but get muddy orange in the print.

I managed to get one such image to print a few years ago but it took horrendous tweaking in Photoshop and what I did works only on that specific print. Here are two examples on my website:

1. Here's the one I tweaked a lot and finally got the sun area's yellow to print:
http://www.robertash.com/FineArtLandscapesandTravel/Landscapes/11225110_9NnLbD#!i=1401446759&k=Wd36pt9&lb=1&s=A

2. Here's one I'm having problems with tonight. It's for a solo exhibition if I can get it to print:
http://www.robertash.com/Other/Private-Gallery/28938459_fRWsLP#!i=2898321697&k=cX83bRJ&lb=1&s=A

#2 has yellow streaks in the clouds in the center and elsewhere. Those yellows and subtle oranges disappear into a monotone orange-brown color in the print itself.

Any ideas?

[hugowolf]

So just to clarify, these colors (yellows) aren’t out of gamut when you soft proof?

And whose profiles are you using: your custom made, external custom made, or the paper manufacture’s supplied profiles?

Brian A

[Robert Ash]

Hi Hugo, sorry for the delay responding, I'm not getting emails for replies to this thread.

1. Thanks. Some of the yellows do show out of gamut in soft-proofing, thanks for the suggestion (I stopped using soft-proofing a couple of years ago). Some of the problem areas don't fall into out of gamut areas in the 2nd url image above.

But doesn't soft-proofing only key off of your Working CMYK? I work in Lab Color and ProPhoto RGB. There are times where I've had to Convert Profile to sRGB to get certain colors to print correctly but that was in earlier version of Photoshop. I'm using CS6 now and haven't run into that problem since, so far with CS6 I can print from whichever color space I'm using as my working color space.

2. I'm using the manufacturer's profiles for the paper (Canson Platine Fiber Rag currently, but the problem happened with Epson Exhibition Fiber and Epson Premium Luster in the past as well).

[hugowolf]

But doesn't soft-proofing only key off of your Working CMYK?

No, it works from the ICC printer/paper profile, but I only use it to see if there is anything out of gamut.

I work in Lab Color and ProPhoto RGB. There are times where I've had to Convert Profile to sRGB to get certain colors to print correctly but that was in earlier version of Photoshop. I'm using CS6 now and haven't run into that problem since, so far with CS6 I can print from whichever color space I'm using as my working color space.

2. I'm using the manufacturer's profiles for the paper (Canson Platine Fiber Rag currently, but the problem happened with Epson Exhibition Fiber and Epson Premium Luster in the past as well).

You say you have cleaned the head, but have you done a nozzle check print?

What rendering intent are you using?

Brian A

[Robert Ash]

Did a nozzle check. It's clean. There's one single section missing in one line of one of the squares.

I'm using Relative Colorimetric intent.

Sorry again for the delays, I'm heads-down printing ~50 images for my solo photography exhibition that starts Saturday (today, by the time you read this post).

It's at Keeble and Shuchat Photography, the top pro photography store in Northern California. I'm pretty excited

I'm of the opinion those yellows are in my monitors' gamuts but not in the "3800's + K3 ink's" gamut. I'm hoping I'm wrong.

[dgberg]

Bob,
If their is a line missing it "Is Not Clean"
What color is it showing up in?
Perceptual is my first choice most of the time. YMMV

[Robert Ash]

There is not a line missing, sorry if I wasn't clear about that. Here's what's happening:

• The nozzle jet test is made of a series of boxes going from left to right.
  Each box is made of a series of slightly diagonal lines from top to bottom.
  Each line is made of a staggered series of thin underscore characters.

In the 5th box from the left (the magenta one, to its right is the cyan one), there is exactly one underscore character missing from the bottom line. The other boxes and lines are all perfect.

So no, it's not 100% clean but it's not off enough to whack out those yellows like it does. Also, it did so even back when I used to do frequent nozzle checks.

So this is a long-time issue, I've just now posted about the problem on a forum. Back in the day, I called Epson about it but they were not able to tell me what was wrong.

[elliot_n]

If one of those 'underscore characters' is missing, and won't respond to repeated cleanings, you need a new printhead.

[Robert Ash]

Elliot,

Thanks, I'll contact Epson. They referred me to a very good service person in my area when I had problems before (head strikes on the paper, I no longer have that problem).

The problem with yellows pre-dates my nozzle check from yesterday with one line segment missing. I used to do nozzle checks quite often and I had the yellows problem back then as well.

[elliot_n]

Sure. I didn't mean to suggest that the incomplete nozzle check was the cause of your yellow problem - I never print colours that deeply saturated so it's not something I'm familiar with. I'm normally printing portraits and a single blocked magenta nozzle will result in sup-optimal prints with subtle banding. If the nozzle can't be cleared, it probably makes more sense to buy a new printer (3880), rather than replace the printhead. (I replaced the printhead on my 3800 a couple of years ago. Now it's blocked again and I'm about to buy a 3880.)

[RHPS]

Hi Robert,

I'm a bit puzzled by your problem, but maybe I have misinterpreted. When I click on your second link I see an image of a waterfall in color, with a monochrome version alongside it. Is that (the color version) the image that causes the problem? If so, then here's why I am puzzled. When I soft-proof the image in PS I don't see any change in the yellows at all, and nothing appears to be out of gamut. This is true for a number of profiles that I have tried, all for the 3800. Further, when I map the colors in Gamutvision it appears that the yellows are hardly changed at all - just some minor changes that appear to be accounted for by the paper white.

If I am interpreting this correctly I am prompted to ask if you have tried a custom profile for your printer? Is it possible that your printer is the problem in this case?

BTW - I have also looked at the other two sunset images at your link and they too appear to be wholly within the gamut of my 3800. If these are not the actual problem images I would really like to look at the one that is.

[elliot_n]

Are you sure the yellow nozzle check is printing good? It can be hard to see.

[hugowolf]

...

 When I soft-proof the image in PS I don't see any change in the yellows at all, and nothing appears to be out of gamut. This is true for a number of profiles that I have tried, all for the 3800. Further, when I map the colors in Gamutvision it appears that the yellows are hardly changed at all - just some minor changes that appear to be accounted for by the paper white.

...

The web posted images, as you would expect, are in sRGB. The orignals in ProPhotoRGB.

Brian A

[RHPS]

OK, but the OP says the images display "just fine on screen", which we have to assume is ARGB at best, so the conversion from PPRGB to ARGB (or maybe something closer to sRGB) is achieved successfully. What puzzles me, based on the gamut of the 3800 in the yellow region, is that the conversion here seems to fail miserably.

As I said, it would be nice to have a look at the original image to see where these problematic yellows lie within (or without) the 3800 color space.

[hugowolf]

A relatively old NEC monitor (wireframe) about 96% of Adobe RGB vs the AdobeRGB (1998) profile (Solid color).



Notice the difference between those saturated yellow/oranges?

Brian A

[Robert Ash]

...If the nozzle can't be cleared, it probably makes more sense to buy a new printer (3880), rather than replace the printhead. (I replaced the printhead on my 3800 a couple of years ago. Now it's blocked again and I'm about to buy a 3880.)

That's a possibility, though from lessons going through this situation I'll try to make sure I take some 'problem yellows' image files with me to do a test print at the store before buying it.

How much did it cost to replace your print head for your 3800?

Also, I just double-checked my yellow square and you're right, it's hard to see (had to take it outside my office into our family room. It's complete.

[Robert Ash]

Brian,

Thanks, that's very helpful. I was just thinking about comparing my paper / images / monitor together in ColorThink and your chart makes a lot of sense.

My monitor is an Eizo ColorEdge CE210W. It's a lower-end Eizo and they told me it doesn't have the same circuitry as their flagship models. Maybe that's better in a perverse way, because the higher end the monitor the more likely you'll see colors and subtleties that a printer can't reproduce......

RHPS,

I'll do the ICC profile comparison on a couple of the images in question and post the results here. If I can find some time I may also post a rezzed-down original that exhibits the problem. Can't promise this because I'm swamped for the next few days....

[Robert Ash]

...Perceptual is my first choice most of the time. YMMV

Thanks, I'll try it. I stuck with Relative Colorimetric a few years ago because it's supposed to preserve more the image's original colors than Perceptual does (according to the description in the Photoshop print dialogue). But I also just noticed that Perceptual is described to work better with out of gamut colors.

Honestly, I used to compare those two rendering intents quite often and never saw a substantive difference so I just stuck with Relative Colorimetric. I just reprinted an image for my exhibition with Perceptual (the first print was Relative Colorimetric) but the out of gamut colors looked the same to me

But I'll try it again, taking a closer look at how they both render out of gamut colors.

[Robert Ash]

By the way, I'm very appreciative of the comments and recommendations, this is my first post to this forum and you guys are great Very knowledgeable membership here.

[RHPS]

If I can find some time I may also post a rezzed-down original that exhibits the problem. Can't promise this because I'm swamped for the next few days....

Thanks. It will be great if you can do this. I'm sure there are a lot like me that would like to see what causes the problem and how/if it might be resolved. Could happen to any of us any time soon, and forewarned etc.....