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Author Topic: 2 monitors: 2 temperatures  (Read 4637 times)

ymc226

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2 monitors: 2 temperatures
« on: October 20, 2013, 09:04:16 pm »

Using 2 NEC PA monitors with Spectraview II to calibrate.  My main monitor is a 27 inch and using a white point of 5500, intensity of 65, gamma 2.2, contrast ratio of 100, it is a great match for my prints on Canson Infinity Rag Photographique.

However, using a print of a white car as a "standard," the 2nd NEC PA monitor, a 24 inch model, the white appears too cool. (The main monitor is a perfect match).   I calibrate successively the smaller 24 inch, increasing the white point up to 10,500K  in 1000K increments but still doesn't appear to warm up the screen picture .  It still appears too cool (the white car portion) I'm on the latest Mac OS using a Mac Mini, plugging the Spectraview II sensor into a USB hub.  Am I doing something wrong as it seems the temperature on the screen hasn't changed that much from an initial calibrated white point of 5500K?

I'd like to use the second screen to view my vertically oriented pictures in LR5 when I post process.
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ymc226

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Re: 2 monitors: 2 temperatures
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2013, 09:52:54 pm »

BTW I set up a home made viewing station using a short track lighting fixture that has 3 fixtures. The bulbs are the Solux 4700K 50 watt with diffusers.
 
Using ImagePrint 9 as my RIP and an Epson 3880 as my printer.

My other question is do I need to plug the Spectraview sensor USB end into each monitor I'm calibrating specifically and not into the USB hub which is attached into my Mac mini?
« Last Edit: October 20, 2013, 09:55:35 pm by ymc226 »
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D Fosse

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Re: 2 monitors: 2 temperatures
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2013, 09:06:55 am »

increasing the white point up to 10,500K  in 1000K increments but still doesn't appear to warm up the screen picture

The higher the Kelvin, the bluer (cooler) it gets. So you need to go down from 5500 to make it appear warmer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black-body_radiation
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ymc226

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Re: 2 monitors: 2 temperatures
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2013, 09:11:01 am »

Whoops, my rookie mistake.  Thanks.  I'll try again tonight.
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ymc226

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Re: 2 monitors: 2 temperatures
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2013, 09:50:46 am »

I have another question as I'm not versed in color management terminology and having read and re-read the SVII manual, an issue still is not clear.

I'd like to calibrate both my monitors for both my glossy Epson Exhibition and matte Canson Infinity Rag Photographique papers and be able to change to the appropriate calibrated settings on the monitors.

On the main SpectraView II window, do I use the Target Settings, Targets Listbox to do this or do I use the Calibration and pick using the folder icon, prior calibrations to call up previously used targets?

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EricV

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Re: 2 monitors: 2 temperatures
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2013, 01:48:54 pm »

I'd like to calibrate both my monitors for both my glossy Epson Exhibition and matte Canson Infinity Rag Photographique papers and be able to change to the appropriate calibrated settings on the monitors.
That's not how color management works.  You calibrate the monitor to an absolute standard, without reference to any printer or paper.  You calibrate your printer to an absolute standard, without reference to any monitor.  The printer needs different profiles for different papers, but the monitor does not.  The only time the display needs to know anything about printing is when you soft proof, and then the printer profile comes into play.
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Tony Jay

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Re: 2 monitors: 2 temperatures
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2013, 05:26:07 pm »

Eric is correct in what he says.
As a follow-up I would suggest acquiring the tutorial series "Camera to Print and Screen" available from this website.
It gives excellent insight into all the colour management issues with which you are currently grappling.
Digest the information in the tutorials and then come back onto the forum with more directed questions.

Tony Jay
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digitaldog

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Re: 2 monitors: 2 temperatures
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2013, 11:55:09 am »

That's not how color management works.  You calibrate the monitor to an absolute standard, without reference to any printer or paper.  You calibrate your printer to an absolute standard, without reference to any monitor.  T
Just the opposite if your goal is a match (two displays to one paper)! The correct values are those that produce a match and it's exceedingly likely you'll need two different calibration targets for two displays to produce a match (unless they are both the same, say a Spectraview, a reference unit who's design is to produce a match with the same settings, instrument and software). Whatever so called "standard" you pick, it's quite likely that without first defining the print viewing conditions, you'll get a mismatch! How the print is lit, how it appears to match or mismatch is kind of based on the illuminant and the paper, any calibration recommendation without taking that into account should be ignored (it's like one hand clapping).
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EricV

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Re: 2 monitors: 2 temperatures
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2013, 01:01:40 pm »

Just the opposite if your goal is a match (two displays to one paper)! The correct values are those that produce a match and it's exceedingly likely you'll need two different calibration targets for two displays to produce a match (unless they are both the same, say a Spectraview, a reference unit who's design is to produce a match with the same settings, instrument and software). Whatever so called "standard" you pick, it's quite likely that without first defining the print viewing conditions, you'll get a mismatch! How the print is lit, how it appears to match or mismatch is kind of based on the illuminant and the paper, any calibration recommendation without taking that into account should be ignored (it's like one hand clapping).
 
So you do not require (or even desire) your monitor calibration process to result in identical displays of the same digital image on different monitors?  Even if the image has no out-of-gamut colors?  Strange .... 

Suppose I have a color managed workflow at home, and I create a digital file with a tagged color space, and it looks correct on my calibrated monitor, and prints perfectly on my calibrated printer.  Now I want to send the file to an outside print service, which also has a color managed workflow.  Do I really have to recalibrate my monitor to match their printer and then rework the image?  That defeats the whole purpose of color management. 

At worst, the print service should send me their printer profile, so that I can soft proof the image on my monitor, then make any necessary adjustments for out-of-gamut colors.  But I should certainly not have to recalibrate my monitor.
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digitaldog

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Re: 2 monitors: 2 temperatures
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2013, 01:15:57 pm »

  So you do not require (or even desire) your monitor calibration process to result in identical displays of the same digital image on different monitors?
That's doable (easy really with the same reference display). Two different display systems in the same environment will likely require two different calibration's to match.

Quote
Suppose I have a color managed workflow at home, and I create a digital file with a tagged color space, and it looks correct on my calibrated monitor, and prints perfectly on my calibrated printer.  Now I want to send the file to an outside print service, which also has a color managed workflow.  Do I really have to recalibrate my monitor to match their printer and then rework the image?  That defeats the whole purpose of color management. 
Where will the image be viewed and next to what display?

Quote
At worst, the print service should send me their printer profile, so that I can soft proof the image on my monitor, then make any necessary adjustments for out-of-gamut colors.  But I should certainly not have to recalibrate my monitor.
To produce a visual match of that print to that display, yes.
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EricV

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Re: 2 monitors: 2 temperatures
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2013, 03:54:45 pm »

I want my display to match my print, but I want that result to be the outcome of a color management process in which 1) the monitor is calibrated to an absolute standard (no printer involved) and 2) the printer is calibrated to an absolute standard (no monitor involved).  Are you saying this is fine in theory but does not work in practice, or are you saying this is not correct color management theory?

If you have one monitor and multiple printer/paper/ink combinations, you certainly need multiple printer profiles.  But in addition do you really need to create multiple monitor calibrations (profiles) and switch between them?  To me that sounds like a failure of the color management system.
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digitaldog

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Re: 2 monitors: 2 temperatures
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2013, 04:10:06 pm »

I want my display to match my print, but I want that result to be the outcome of a color management process in which 1) the monitor is calibrated to an absolute standard
When you do so, do you get a good match, with a myriad of papers, with and without varying degree's of OBA's, contrast ratio's and under what viewing illuminant? 
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EricV

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Re: 2 monitors: 2 temperatures
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2013, 04:28:43 pm »

When you do so, do you get a good match, with a myriad of papers, with and without varying degree's of OBA's, contrast ratio's and under what viewing illuminant? 

That part of matching is the responsibility of the *printer* profiles.
Do you really create different *monitor* profiles for all of these conditions?

I want my monitor to display (128,128,128) as neutral gray, and I want my printer to display (128,128,128) as neutral gray.  It would be a failure of color management (on both monitor and printer) if I had to display (128,128,128) with a green tint because my printer will print it with a green tint.
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digitaldog

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Re: 2 monitors: 2 temperatures
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2013, 07:12:27 pm »

That part of matching is the responsibility of the *printer* profiles.
But in some cases, the printer profile can't. High OBA's? In at least one package you can account for that (visually and with Spectrophotometer I'll add) but move the paper to another viewing condition, all bets are off. Contrast ratio soft proofing happens nicely in a well controlled reference display that has that calibration and can build a profile while switching on the fly to other conditions based on print and viewing conditions. Solux vs. Fluorescent 'daylight' bulbs, big difference. Bigger effect on metameric failure. Some things a printer profile alone doesn't account for.
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I want my monitor to display (128,128,128) as neutral gray, and I want my printer to display (128,128,128) as neutral gray.
You can't ignore white or the surround.
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Floyd Davidson

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Re: 2 monitors: 2 temperatures
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2013, 07:42:14 pm »

I want my display to match my print, but I want that result to be the outcome of a color management process in which 1) the monitor is calibrated to an absolute standard (no printer involved) and 2) the printer is calibrated to an absolute standard (no monitor involved).  Are you saying this is fine in theory but does not work in practice, or are you saying this is not correct color management theory?

It's not true in theory, and does not work in practice.

The reason is simply that different display mechanisms have different capabilities, and you cannot get them to all display the same "absolute standard" in absolutely the same way.  The color temperature and gamut are different, the whiteness is different and the contrast is different.  For example, never mind the difference in illumination for a reflective display like a print, just think about the slightly different color shades from one paper to the next, the actual reflectivity of the paper, and the contrast that can be obtained.  On exactly the same printer with exactly the same inks, the differences between available papers is dramatic!

The printer profile measures the colors produced with each combination of printer and paper, and allows those to be set to "a standard".  It won't be the same standard on one paper as what you get with some other very different paper!   The only option one has to correct for the actual difference in papers is to change the way the monitor displays the image.  (There are multiple ways to accomplish changing the monitor, but that's a different discussion.)

You don't get prints that are identical when using different papers!  But what you want is a color management system that allows your monitor to show whatever it is that each different combination of printer and paper will produce.  Clearly that requires some form of a feedback loop providing printer information to the monitor used when editing an image.
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EricV

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Re: 2 monitors: 2 temperatures
« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2013, 02:06:53 am »

The only option one has to correct for the actual difference in papers is to change the way the monitor displays the image. 
You do not want to change the way the printer prints the image at all?
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Floyd Davidson

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Re: 2 monitors: 2 temperatures
« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2013, 02:27:37 am »

You do not want to change the way the printer prints the image at all?

You have already adjusted the printer to be as close as possible to the "standard", and therefore  there is no change that will result in a better print.

For example, if you have a very bright white glossy paper and you also have a less bright matte paper, there is no way possible to have the best print on each paper look the same as the other.  (You could dull the bright glossy paper down to be closer to the matte paper, but that defeats the purpose of using a whiter paper.)

Hence prints on the two different papers will look different.  When you are editing for each paper you want the monitor to display what the print on that one specific paper will look like.  And yes that does mean you will sometimes (maybe often) save multiple versions of an image to facilitate printing on multiple papers.
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