Do any mirrorless cameras not have a shutter black out

[sully75]

I bought an OM-D thinking (erroneously) that because the camera was mirrorless, there would be no shutter blackout.  For the last couple of years I've used a Mamiya C330 and a 4x5 for portraiture and love both because for portraiture I think it's extremely important that you be able to see the subject during the exposure.

Anyway, for various reasons I can't stand the OM-D.  I'm going to sell.  I have a pretty nice lens for it, so I'm open to sticking with micro 4/3. 

Regardless though, do any of the compact system cameras not have a shutter blackout?  I.E. when you click the shutter can you continue to see the subject in the EVF?

Thanks!
Paul

[Alan Smallbone]

To my knowledge they all have some black out. The sensor needs to be blanked to be read in most chips, otherwise more photons are gathered. since most mirrorless are using an evf that is getting a feed from the sensor, this means it will black out for a short period of time. How long depends on the processor reading it and the sensor design. The drawback to very fast readout is increased noise, but obviously they try to minimize it.

Alan

[BJL]

... for portraiture I think it's extremely important that you be able to see the subject during the exposure.

Just out of interest, why is this even vaguely important or useful? Once you press the shutter release and the exposure starts, it is too late for any corrections, and to check if the shot needs to be retaken due to blinks or such, the after-shot rapid review (in EVF or rear-screen) is the tool to use.

Anyway, as far as I know, nothing other than an optical non-TTL VF is going to do what you want, so maybe it is time to save for a Leica M digital?

[sully75]

I couldn't give you a good reason why it's important but for me I know it is.  I end up shooting way, way less and getting way more keepers. 

I find, personally, that if you lose the viewfinder while you are doing a portrait, you end up just bashing away, hoping they don't blink.  So you shoot tons and the whole interaction is much less pleasant.

When you are able to see the subject, you can watch their blinking patterns, watch their expression and then click the shutter.  Watch their expression through the shutter and see if it remains the one you thought.

Keeper rate goes up exponentially for me.

Never really liked the Leica I had. 

Really would love to mount a MF back on a Mamiya C330 but that's probably not going to happen either.

Proof is in the pudding, I guess.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/paulmcevoy

[Rawcoll]

Anyway, as far as I know, nothing other than an optical non-TTL VF is going to do what you want, so maybe it is time to save for a Leica M digital?

Or maybe a Fujifilm XPro or X100s, both of which have an optical viewfinder as well as an EVF, and will require less saving!

[BJL]

Or maybe a Fujifilm XPro or X100s, both of which have an optical viewfinder as well as an EVF, and will require less saving!

Mea culpa: those are probably far better recommendations!

And if instead one desires the greater choice of focal lengths and the ability to use zoom lens options enabled by through-the-lens viewfinders, all I can suggest is learning the different techniques that go with different technology: check immediately after the shot with the in-viewfinder review of the shot just taken. The change from film to digital closes one door but opens another.

[Telecaster]

What we need is a sensor assembly that can be put into a state of quantum superposition, recording/not recording photons & reading/not reading voltages simultaneously.   

-Dave-

[Rawcoll]

But will it only be able to take pictures of cats?

[Vladimirovich]

I find, personally, that if you lose the viewfinder while you are doing a portrait, you end up just bashing away, hoping they don't blink.  So you shoot tons and the whole interaction is much less pleasant.

strange subjects you have... I am using GH3 and when it is just one person in a frame, portrait-wise, I have blinks in less than 1 out 15 cases... that is when the person is aware and pose.

PS: the camera name is E-M5, not OM-D.

[Telecaster]

But will it only be able to take pictures of cats?

Maybe, but they'll be blinking/not blinking cats. Problem solved!

-Dave-

[PeterAit]

How can you continually see the subject with a 4x5? The film holder blanks out the ground glass, no?

[Rawcoll]

I don't take portraits generally, and certainly not in a studio, but surely you would not need to look through the camera as you were taking the shots, assuming that the camera was on a tripod? Wouldn't maintaining eye-contact during the process help build a connection between the photographer and model?

[sully75]

How can you continually see the subject with a 4x5? The film holder blanks out the ground glass, no?

Well, yeah.   But in that case you are standing beside the camera, so you are able to look at the subject.  Which obviously you can do with a tripod and any camera, digital or otherwise.  But the Mamiya or any other TLR or rangefinder camera has the best of both worlds...you can do it while handholding.  I've never really taken to rangefinders but I might be forced to try one of the Fujis.

[Greg D]

Proof is in the pudding, I guess.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/paulmcevoy

Indeed.  I don't know why the blackout matters, either, but you have some fascinating photos.

[sully75]

Thanks...my portraiture got a lot better when I got into this tripod/viewfinder thing.  It's not like I invented the idea.  I think HCB talked about how with SLRs you can't see the thing you are photographing while you are actually photographing it.  Worked for him.

[BJL]

I think HCB talked about how with SLRs you can't see the thing you are photographing while you are actually photographing it.  Worked for him.

Shutter lag was probably the main practical difference that HCB was noticing, and maybe you too: in particular, the Leicas he used had noticeably shorter shutter lag than the early SLR's he was comparing to, and that advantage for cameras without an SLR's mirror-flipping delay persists to some extent today.


The other factor I can see is detecting last-moment problems like blinks after the shutter release is pressed: even though it is too late to save the shot, seeing the subject at the moment the photo is taken lets you know immediately to reshoot. For that goal of "truly live view", the options I see are:

1) Look directly at the subject over the camera when actually taking the shot after composing either two-eyed on the rear-screen or one-eyed through the EVF. Maybe shoot view-camera style with the camera on tripod and the rear-screen tilted up for a last check that the framing is still right.

2) Using the almost-instant on-screen review.

[BJL]

I just remembered that there are a few accessory optical viewfinders for "mirror-free" cameras that avoid black-out, like one for Olympus Pen cameras for use with its 17mm lens, one for NEX cameras with its 16mm lens, and one for the Sony RX1 with its 35mm lens --- but as you see, each works only with a single moderately-wide focal length, perhaps for "street photography", not for portraiture.

[sully75]

1) Look directly at the subject over the camera when actually taking the shot after composing either two-eyed on the rear-screen or one-eyed through the EVF. Maybe shoot view-camera style with the camera on tripod and the rear-screen tilted up for a last check that the framing is still right.

2) Using the almost-instant on-screen review.

I can't quite explain it, but I don't think it's the shutter lag that's the problem.  I think on some emotional level there is a connection when you can see the eyes of the subject while you are photographing.  It's not like 100% are keepers, but my success rate is incredibly high relative to my previous DSLR work.  I shot quite a bit with 5x7, and I had a thing where I would try to shoot at most 2 frames, but would try to only shoot one.  I used to do really well with that.  I got lazy after a while, and with 4x5 got even lazier, but I would end up with 8 good frames of the same picture.  Since there is so much effort put into each frame for development it was mostly a waste.

I'm living on a boat now and/or moving a lot for work, so carrying the LF stuff around isn't really making sense, although I think I will hold on to the 5x7 out of loyalty.  And my 2 Mamiyas C330s...it would be hard to part with them.  My beautiful 4x5 though, I think it's going away.

Anyway, you are totally right.  I could just use a really good SLR on a Tripod.  I've never done that, really.  I kinda think SLRs look stupid on tripods, just from a coolness perspective, but obviously that's kinda dumb.  I've also sold all my Canon stuff, and have no lenses left.  Totally did not like the OM-D.  Pondering other micro 43 bodies or dumping it entirely and trying something else.  I'd try Fuji but I don't think they are water sealed at all?  I need to check.

Thanks for the thoughts.

[sully75]

I just remembered that there are a few accessory optical viewfinders for "mirror-free" cameras that avoid black-out, like one for Olympus Pen cameras for use with its 17mm lens, one for NEX cameras with its 16mm lens, and one for the Sony RX1 with its 35mm lens --- but as you see, each works only with a single moderately-wide focal length, perhaps for "street photography", not for portraiture.

You mean optical viewfinders for composing?  That would be an option too...I've never tried one.  I'm more or less a single focal length guy...

[Herbc]

sully, if you shoot a nikon or canon, there is a wireless device called Camranger that will allow you to wirelessly connect the camera to an Ipad.  You can fire the shutter from the Ipad, and make adjustments to the camera as well.
I use it for landscape, but it would surely benefit portraiture.
When I made money from photography, I shot portraits with a 4x5 and hot lights.  Tripod, cable release and once framed, never looked at the camera, just talked to the subject and got the relationship established.