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Author Topic: Used Eizo - Which Model?  (Read 5527 times)

John Rodriguez

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Used Eizo - Which Model?
« on: October 04, 2013, 08:58:30 am »

I want to upgrade to an Eizo, but I'm going the used route for now.  I'm not too fussed about having a ton of screen real estate as all of my tool palettes are on a second monitor.  Recommendations?  Any models I need to stay away from?  
« Last Edit: October 04, 2013, 09:58:48 am by John Rodriguez »
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nihil

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Re: Used Eizo - Which Model?
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2013, 09:10:54 am »

I'd get a monitor with a IPS-panel. I bought a NEC LCD2690WUXI (IPS-panel) when Eizo still used VA-panels. (The new ones are IPS) I've been very happy with the NEC for many many years.. It seems to me just as good as the Eizo CG275W we have at work, in terms of image quality.. But I haven't compared them side by side.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2013, 09:15:03 am by nihil »
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digitaldog

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Re: Used Eizo - Which Model?
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2013, 09:26:05 am »

I want to upgrade my monitor to something that calibrates well at ~80cd/m2. 
Why? That's going to be very difficult to do natively with an LCD.
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John Rodriguez

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Re: Used Eizo - Which Model?
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2013, 09:53:33 am »

I could go into the reason, however I have a feeling that might derail the thread, so I'd rather just avoid that conversation.  Let's just say I find it very useful. 

It's not difficult to achieve 80 cd/m2 with an Eizo, thus the topic of this thread.
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digitaldog

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Re: Used Eizo - Which Model?
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2013, 10:39:07 am »

It's not difficult to achieve 80 cd/m2 with an Eizo, thus the topic of this thread.

Then buy an Eizo. As I said, it's hard if possible to natively calibrate to that low a cd/m2. NEC doesn't recommend anything lower than 150cd/m2 from a new SpectraView although like the Eizo, you can probably force the issue with a non native (non internal) adjustment which is far from ideal on such high end units.
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John Rodriguez

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Re: Used Eizo - Which Model?
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2013, 11:49:38 am »

Then buy an Eizo.

That's what I intend to do. See thread topic.

As I said, it's hard if possible to natively calibrate to that low a cd/m2. NEC doesn't recommend anything lower than 150cd/m2 from a new SpectraView although like the Eizo, you can probably force the issue with a non native (non internal) adjustment which is far from ideal on such high end units. 

Which is why I'm not asking about NECs.  Eizo's are designed to be calibrated between 60 and 120 cd/m2.  You get a warning if you try and go above 120.  If you don't believe me, go research it.
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digitaldog

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Re: Used Eizo - Which Model?
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2013, 11:51:51 am »

  Eizo's are designed to be calibrated between 60 and 120 cd/m2.  You get a warning if you try and go above 120.  If you don't believe me, go research it.
Natively? The NEC's can be calibrated that low too, not natively. There's a difference. And if you know the Eizo can natively be calibrated this way, again, why ask. Buy the Eizo.
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John Rodriguez

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Re: Used Eizo - Which Model?
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2013, 11:56:59 am »

Natively? The NEC's can be calibrated that low too, not natively. There's a difference. And if you know the Eizo can natively be calibrated this way, again, why ask. Buy the Eizo.

I didn't ask.  You just answered. If you look at the original post I'm asking for advice about which Eizo models may/may not be good values used. IE, this model has known issue X, stay away.

Thanks.
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Frans Waterlander

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Re: Used Eizo - Which Model?
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2013, 12:13:33 pm »

So, I'd like to know the difference between calibrating an NEC SpectraView natively and non-natively. Native mode, as far as I know, is using the full resolution and maximum brightness, meaning no backlight pulse width modulation (PWM) or the max setting for pulse width modulation. Calibrating to a brightness less than maximum means for NEC monitors decreasing the duty cycle of the PWM, whether one started in native mode or not. So why would it make a difference? If you already decreased the brightness using PWM, calibrating it to an even lower brightness means that the duty cycle of the PWM needs to be lowered even more. Why would SpectraView have a problem doing that?

Since my new NEC SpectraView P242W-BK-SV arrives on Monday I'd really like to know why NEC would recommend not to work with less than 150cd/m^2 and where I can find that information.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2013, 12:59:09 pm by Frans Waterlander »
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MiSwan

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Re: Used Eizo - Which Model?
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2013, 07:07:24 pm »

John,

Ok, earlier generation of the ColorEdges were all ment to be targeting to 80 cd/m2. Eizo even went so far that they said that the warrenty was not covering these panels if driven higher than that. That's a clear fact.

It was kind of unique at that time when the border had to be crossed between the last CRT's and the new TFT's for professional use. Any other brand was up at at least 130-140 cd/m2 as reccomendation. For all of us who had been using dim CRT's at 80-90 cd/m2, the Eizo route was a kind of blessing. It was very difficult to just jump over to the TFT's at those higher levels plus a completely different feel of sharpness and contrast. So, 80 -90 cd/m2 was a soft move.

Coming out to places to calibrate where still there are a few older CG's mixed with newer one, the typical 80 cd/m2 concept reminds me. Bumping up to 100 or more, the blackpoint wants to follow upwards to easily. They were never ment to run high. Even the CG222/223 with VA panel (the older CG's … were actually all IPS's….it was the budgetlines that had some VA's) had clear restriction by Eizo not to run higher than 80. Otherwise the warrent wasn't covering the panel. I don't know how they would be able to prove such a thing, but anyway. They made that point.

So, 80 candela is a typical Eizo target. ColorNavigator many times dafults to 80….. still today. Remember that older IPS's had very low contrast ratios and high blackpointlevels. Most older IPS panels had. Eizo was delivering highend TFT's when Artisan CRT still was the industry standard. They were way ahead of all the rest in the first years of TFT's. Also in the very low budgetsegment. Even those were possible to run low. But the 100 cd/m2 was a better compromise with them. Many of my newspaperclients ( photographers and picturedesks ) simply REFUSED to let me take any monitor higher the first years.  Especially in those departments were a dimlight had been standard for long time. I tried to fool them gradually, sometimes it worked, sometimes they called me back the day after I've been there. "never do that again!"…. I did it again next session, of course, but we're all friends today ;)

If Eizo runs natively or taking any shortcuts has never been up in my mind. I assumed that they really know why they restricted their older ones to 80. They never been bad performing…..so I can't say anything about that. But please explain.

Today things are different. It's no big problem running an Eizo high. New kind of IPS's are probably the reason. And new attitudes. I put them where they belong depending on ambient lightlevel (which not always can be discussed with people in charge to be changed…) and it will be in the span between 100 cd and 140. In photo departments often at the 100-110, newsdesks and advertisingdepartments up at 130-140. The ambient is higher at non photodepartments and mixed by nice daylight sipping in….

The contrastratio is the only thing that actually is important. If you know what you want and target to, and then get the blackpoint along upwards in locked ratio when bumping the whitelevel, you can put it almost wherever you want. Ok, gamutsize tend to hang on and increase slightly when going up, but who cares about that kind of crap anyway ;) At highend places the same concept is used if no lightbox / hardproofing has to be involved. The ambient rules it all when it comes the whitelevel then.

So, what model? "Avoid" the oldest lines CG19, CG21 and those. They still are alive and kicking s-RGB but the backlight has probably more to desire today. The contrastratio when using the "grey" setting in Colornavigator, delivers a really narrow contrastratio and drags the blackpoint up to much if going 90 and above. (slightly better ratio if using the "Contrast" choice. But on an older CG when the backlight started to drift by aging you want the "grey"). You will be able to use it at 80 and get a blackpoint at minimum 0,35-0.4 or so using grey…. forget anything lower. They never disapoint me generally when meeting an oldie now and then, especially when it comes to getting a very clean greyramp. But again, the ratio can be a PIA -- ff in mixed environment with newer CG's. Some of the older ones needs older versions of Colornavigator which doesn't support Discus or newer probes for example. Some newer features will also be lacking. The newer Colornavigators are simply better allover.

At all periods there has been a slitghtly lower ColorEdge line side by side with the best line, some of them used VA's. (CG222/223 calibrates superb with Colornavigator) The main issue against them was the viewangle . Gamutwize and smoothness as good and large as anything at the same period of time. Even at the small panelsize of the 222 the viewangle is disturbing at a normal viewing distance. I just woulden't get a VA today. I've also been editing very much at picturedesks on the 222/223's not just calibrating loads of them. Some lower level series of the Coloredges and wide 16:9 had shown some edgebleeding or at least "glowing IPS edges" more than I liked. I can't recall the models and I don't think a got my calibrationreports kept on them anymore, it was about three years ago. I wasn't that happy to see it.

I don't know if there really is that much saving in going USED and find a two three years old Eizo? I have no idea about the pricelevel, but could imagine it to be higher than it should be because it's an Eizo.

The choice for a new, instead of a used one, "should be" between any of the CX's Edges and NEC 271 if you ask me. I've never been fully into the NEC camp with both feets since the earlier bad and arrogant attitudes about service/warrenty policys. Eizio NEVER EVER been a problem. New monitor comes in box. Unpack it and then put old monitor in box , send it back. Problem over. No discussion. My experinces from LaCie CRT's / TFT's and NEC's have been the other way around mildly speaking. Things may changed in some countrys. I dunno. They really pissed me off more than once.  The 271 may perhaps change my point of view, I might get the Reference myself (as a protest against the swing-eizo). So, never slam the door.

However… a bottomline…….after all, perhaps you would be happy with anything from USED Eizo's if the 80cd/m2 is your only preference (but keep in mind the low contrast ratio that can come with the oldies if you change your mind and start bumping up).

Ok, back to the LaProaig. I almost forgot I just opened one ;)
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darlingm

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Re: Used Eizo - Which Model?
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2013, 08:01:44 pm »

In case it helps, my Asus PA246Q without a profile or LUT's loaded runs 60 cd/m^2 with brightness 0 in OSD, and 210 cd/m^2 with brightness 100.

It's a wide gamut (98% AdobeRGB) model from Asus, which is rare for them.  Belive it's recently discontinued, but still out there for sale.  Asus' other models don't even compare - the PA248Q is nothing like it.

It's not an Eizo, but it's around $320 new, and is way closer to Eizo class monitors than regular LCD's.
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Frans Waterlander

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Re: Used Eizo - Which Model?
« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2013, 06:16:27 pm »

The ASUS PA246Q has been replaced with the PA249Q. The PA249Q covers 99% of Adobe RGB.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2013, 06:38:22 pm by Frans Waterlander »
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Frans Waterlander

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Re: Used Eizo - Which Model?
« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2013, 07:44:26 pm »

Going back to the issue of how low you can set you monitor... Andrew Rodney wrote: "...it's hard if possible to natively calibrate to that low a cd/m2 (refering to 80 cd/m^2 or nits). NEC doesn't recommend anything lower than 150cd/m2 from a new SpectraView although like the Eizo, you can probably force the issue with a non native (non internal) adjustment which is far from ideal on such high end units."

I asked for a clarification of this statement on this thread and another, but haven't receive a reaction from Andrew yet. So, I looked a little closer at NEC monitor reviews on tftcentral and it apppears that there are certain limitations on certain NEC models and no limitations for other models. Describing such limitations as related to native or non-native mode (or internal) is in my opinion inaccurate and misleading.

The limitations apply to some models and have to do with going below the lowest range of the backlighting adjustment. Some NEC models allow you to lower the screen brightness below the lowest range of the backlighting pulse width modulation (PWM), which causes the red, green and blue sub-pixels to be turned down and drastically lowers the constrast ratio, something to avoid like the proverbial plague. I looked at 6 high end NEC monitor reviews; 2 could not be lowered beyond the lowest setting for the PWM, and 4 could. Here is an overview:
P232W PWM only, 26 through 291 nits
P241W PWM range 106 through 398 nits, can go down to 45 nits at the expense of contrast
LCD2490WUXi PWM only, 158 through 374 nits
PA231W PWM range 44 though 194 nits, can go down to 14 nits at the expense of contrast
PA241W PWM range 106 through 318 nits, can go down to 32 nits at the expense of contrast
PA271W PWM range 70 through 290 nits, can go down to 32 nits at the expense of contrast

So, depending on the model, these NEC monitors can reach low brightnesses of between 26 and 106 nits without compromising contrast and it has nothing to do with native or non-native mode and everything with backlighting PWM.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2013, 07:49:33 pm by Frans Waterlander »
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John Rodriguez

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Re: Used Eizo - Which Model?
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2013, 11:50:26 am »

Thanks for the replies.
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Frans Waterlander

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Re: Used Eizo - Which Model?
« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2013, 09:38:11 pm »

And here is the information on yet another recent model NEC monitor, the P242W. Brightness adjustements are done exclusively through varying the backlighting pulse width modulation (PWM); there is no setting below the minimum PWM setting that could compromise contrast . At the native color temp setting the maximum brightness is 270 nits and the minimum is 37 nits. Nowhere does NEC advice to keep the brightness at 150 nits or more or any other value for that matter.
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budjames

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Re: Used Eizo - Which Model?
« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2013, 06:11:20 am »

I have an excellent condition Eizo ColorEdge CE240W (24") for sale $500 plus shipping and insurance.

I replaced my 2007 MacPro with a new (2013) iMac 27" BTO so I have no need for the Eizo display.

Cheers.
Bud James
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Re: Used Eizo - Which Model?
« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2013, 07:40:32 am »

I thought "yes, I could buy that in a second" - but then I googled it and saw that this is one of the earlier models using a PVA panel. It's a great monitor, to be sure, but I already have a PVA Eizo and I'm currently looking for an IPS monitor to replace it.

Now, in Eizo's hands PVA is almost as good as IPS. But there is a very slight viewing angle shift in the deep shadows. On my screen it appears to be correct viewed at head on 90 degrees, and then it washes out as you move from that position. A screen size of 22 inches seems to be small enough so that it's not a big problem. But it is noticeable towards the edges.

(On a cheap monitor, without any correction, PVA can be a disaster. The effect is commonly known as "black crush". You get completely blocked up blacks in a circle at the center of the screen, and washed out anywhere else. In the transition zone one eye sees black and the other gray. It's enough to make you dizzy. It can be even worse than TN).

Anyway, I still think a used ColorEdge should be a very good buy, and I keep my eyes open. But I'd go for an IPS model.
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