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Author Topic: Photoshop & Creative Cloud: We’re Listening?  (Read 51379 times)

StephaneB

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Re: Photoshop & Creative Cloud: We’re Listening?
« Reply #140 on: September 07, 2013, 03:20:56 pm »

Well... In this digital world we are all "chasing the technology."   Like it or not it is true.  In fact, as a hobbyist that has been part of the fun - seeing ever increasing image quality, flexibility and possibility.  

How many of us are using the same cameras we used even three years ago?  The same versions of any software from five years ago?  Look at the FOR SALE section and add up the first page's asking prices.  Deduct that from what we all paid retail and the cost of "owning" your gear will make the cost of "renting" your software look like mana from heaven.  It is all semantics, IMO.  

For me, the new CC Photographer's package is a bargain, even WHEN the price will rise over time (just like every other freaking thing on the planet).  Not having to think about keeping ACR, PS & LR versions in synch is a nice plus for me too.  

I had initially the same "I want to own, not rent" reaction.  As I looked at my history of upgrades over the last decade, and how many pages of version numbers, product keys, etc. I have in my notes - well, it kinda made the distinction a little moot.

As I chase the technology, get new gear over time, and enjoy even greater image quality, flexibility, and possibility - the software (rental or not) will remain a very key component and still the cheapest part of the equation by a huge margin.  So, for me at least, after looking at the "big picture" I came to the conclusion that while I'd rather have Adobe pay me to use their software that probably wasn't going to happen and that the value using their products represents, as a percentage of my total expenditure on "photography," is the most cost effective part of it.  One man's opinion.  

Oh, and my fingernails don't turn yellow from using Adobe like they did when I used Kodak.  ;D

Rand

My thoughts exactly. There is no satisfying some people.
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Rhossydd

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Re: Photoshop & Creative Cloud: We’re Listening?
« Reply #141 on: September 07, 2013, 04:50:32 pm »

Or you simply factor-in the cost of Lightroom (or an upgrade if you have an existing perpetual-licence version) if/when you leave CC.
The important aspect you've seemed to miss here is that you'll need to continually keep up to date with the current perpetual licence to be 'safe'.
Maybe it will be economic to just to just buy a complete new licence if you want out at a later date, but anyone buying into this 'deal' ought to keep across what the perpetual options are, how they change and if you need to buy anything outside of the CC plan to keep your long term options open.
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Simon Garrett

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Re: Photoshop & Creative Cloud: We’re Listening?
« Reply #142 on: September 07, 2013, 08:01:11 pm »

The important aspect you've seemed to miss here is that you'll need to continually keep up to date with the current perpetual licence to be 'safe'.
Maybe it will be economic to just to just buy a complete new licence if you want out at a later date, but anyone buying into this 'deal' ought to keep across what the perpetual options are, how they change and if you need to buy anything outside of the CC plan to keep your long term options open.
No, I didn't miss it!  I explained that I'll keep my existing Cs5 licence for Photoshop, and upgrade my existing Lr5 licence as necessary.  LR upgrades still work from several versions ago, and even if not, I can afford an LR licence.  That's what I factor in to the risk of a CC licence which I subsequently abandon, if I go that way.  I've not made up my mind, so this is hyperthetical. 
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Arlen

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Re: Photoshop & Creative Cloud: We’re Listening?
« Reply #143 on: September 07, 2013, 08:34:44 pm »

The important aspect you've seemed to miss here is that you'll need to continually keep up to date with the current perpetual licence to be 'safe'.
Maybe it will be economic to just to just buy a complete new licence if you want out at a later date, but anyone buying into this 'deal' ought to keep across what the perpetual options are, how they change and if you need to buy anything outside of the CC plan to keep your long term options open.

Pretty accurate I think, except why do you need to continually keep up to date with the current perpetual license?

In the larger view, the basic choice seems to be:

A. Stay with Adobe for now
    1. Use PS and LR CC as long as it remains the best choice for you and makes economic sense.
    2. If/when they announce the coming end of the LR perpetual license, buy the latest perpetual license update immediately
        (modest cost). This allows you to continue working with your RAW files and latest LR catalog edits (your exit
        strategy
).
    3. Your PS output was always TIFF, so you can switch to any other similar competing program you desire.
    4. Buy competing programs and start the hard work of migrating your LR data to one of them. You'll have some time
        to do it, because your up-to-date perpetual LR version won't go obsolete for a while.

B. Abandon Adobe and adopt alternate competing programs now
    1. Jump to step 4 above immediately.

In either case you are going to have to go through the hassle of migrating to other software. Do it now, or do it later if you eventually find the situation intolerable. I'm not advocating for either choice, it's an individual decision based on personal circumstances. Or maybe  on how pissed off one is.
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William Walker

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Re: Photoshop & Creative Cloud: We’re Listening?
« Reply #144 on: September 08, 2013, 04:27:59 am »

I would be quite happy if things worked like this:

1)  I now own Cs6 Ver.13.0.5  and Lightroom 5.0
2)  I get on the $9.99 "CC Bus"
3)  Say, after two years, after perhaps two inflation-related increases to the subscription we are now at CS Ver 15.0 and Lightroom 7. (on CC).
4)  I decide to get off the "CC Bus".

Do I get off the "CC Bus" with CS Ver 15.0 and Lightroom 7, or do I get off with what I originally started with (Cs6 Ver.13.0.5  and Lightroom 5.0)?

If it is the former - I don't see a problem. If it is the latter I can understand the uncertainty and reluctance to get involved.

That is the only information I require to make my decision.

William
« Last Edit: September 08, 2013, 04:29:45 am by William Walker »
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Rhossydd

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Re: Photoshop & Creative Cloud: We’re Listening?
« Reply #145 on: September 08, 2013, 04:58:35 am »

do I get off with what I originally started with (Cs6 Ver.13.0.5  and Lightroom 5.0)?
Yes, the rental doesn't buy you anything new, it just lets you use what's current. Stop subscribing and you're back to where you started
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designpartners

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Re: Photoshop & Creative Cloud: We’re Listening?
« Reply #146 on: September 08, 2013, 04:59:30 am »

I would be quite happy if things worked like this:

1)  I now own Cs6 Ver.13.0.5  and Lightroom 5.0
2)  I get on the $9.99 "CC Bus"
3)  Say, after two years, after perhaps two inflation-related increases to the subscription we are now at CS Ver 15.0 and Lightroom 7. (on CC).
4)  I decide to get off the "CC Bus".

Do I get off the "CC Bus" with CS Ver 15.0 and Lightroom 7, or do I get off with what I originally started with (Cs6 Ver.13.0.5  and Lightroom 5.0)?

If it is the former - I don't see a problem. If it is the latter I can understand the uncertainty and reluctance to get involved.

That is the only information I require to make my decision.

William

it's the latter.. you get off the CC bus with CS6 and Lr5 with no ability to work on the files you've worked on since moving to CC

and before everybody says just save a Tiff file, this is a pretty s%it "hack" that just about gets you around opening a PSD file - it doesn't do anything Illustrator, InDesign, Premier, Dreamweaver, Flash etc etc..
And, some of us use Photoshop for more than adjusting photos, sometimes we create images from scratch, and a tiff file is no substitute for native.

I know, I know, this is a Photography forum, so I haven't harped on about it too much..
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William Walker

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Re: Photoshop & Creative Cloud: We’re Listening?
« Reply #147 on: September 08, 2013, 05:47:25 am »

it's the latter.. you get off the CC bus with CS6 and Lr5 with no ability to work on the files you've worked on since moving to CC


If that is the case - then all one is left with is to trust that Adobe will not make things more difficult down the line by increasing rentals at a ridiculous rate.

It seems to be that, or move to another product.

I think I am going to trust Adobe at this point (...and they can thank Thomas Knoll and Eric Chan for that!). $9.99 per month is a good deal - even for a South African with the exchange rate as it is at the moment!

William
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john beardsworth

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Re: Photoshop & Creative Cloud: We’re Listening?
« Reply #148 on: September 08, 2013, 10:57:25 am »

it's the latter.. you get off the CC bus with CS6 and Lr5 with no ability to work on the files you've worked on since moving to CC
I don't think that's true. You would be able to open TIFs in LR1-5, and would be able to open them in CS6 but may find there's an error message where you have done something that's CC-specific - for example, used a new layer blending mode.

designpartners

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Re: Photoshop & Creative Cloud: We’re Listening?
« Reply #149 on: September 08, 2013, 05:15:27 pm »

I don't think that's true. You would be able to open TIFs in LR1-5, and would be able to open them in CS6 but may find there's an error message where you have done something that's CC-specific - for example, used a new layer blending mode.

I think the end of your sentence proves my point...
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john beardsworth

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Re: Photoshop & Creative Cloud: We’re Listening?
« Reply #150 on: September 08, 2013, 06:30:38 pm »

No, you'd still be able to work on the files, but imperfectly. Think trying to open in CS5 a file with CS6 features. That's not "no ability".

madmanchan

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Re: Photoshop & Creative Cloud: We’re Listening?
« Reply #151 on: September 09, 2013, 03:07:37 pm »

I don't know if the following information will help alleviate any fears regarding layered PSD/TIFF files (e.g., carefully crafted "master files"), but here goes. Thomas has informed me that Adobe has been very careful in adding features to layered PSD/TIFF in ways so they are still readable (and quite editable) in older Photoshop versions. For example, smart layers become normal layers if they require newer features. If you use a new blend mode or layer effect, you have the option of opening the flattened image exactly, or a layered version with possible visible changes.

Thus, folks who choose later to "get off the CC bus" but still wish to open, convert, print (and perhaps even do some edits to) their layered PSD/TIFF images using an older perpetual version of Photoshop (CS6, CS5, etc.) will continue to be able to do so. The same layered PSD/TIFF files will also be readable in Lightroom, which as Adobe has indicated it intends to keep available in a perpetual license form.
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Eric Chan

designpartners

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Re: Photoshop & Creative Cloud: We’re Listening?
« Reply #152 on: September 09, 2013, 05:00:20 pm »

I don't know if the following information will help alleviate any fears regarding layered PSD/TIFF files (e.g., carefully crafted "master files"), but here goes. Thomas has informed me that Adobe has been very careful in adding features to layered PSD/TIFF in ways so they are still readable (and quite editable) in older Photoshop versions. For example, smart layers become normal layers if they require newer features. If you use a new blend mode or layer effect, you have the option of opening the flattened image exactly, or a layered version with possible visible changes.

Thus, folks who choose later to "get off the CC bus" but still wish to open, convert, print (and perhaps even do some edits to) their layered PSD/TIFF images using an older perpetual version of Photoshop (CS6, CS5, etc.) will continue to be able to do so. The same layered PSD/TIFF files will also be readable in Lightroom, which as Adobe has indicated it intends to keep available in a perpetual license form.


Hi Eric,

Thanks, is does help and I appreciate the effort all at Adobe do.

It does still hurt though, we have 35 very talented people working very hard to build a business - building quality "carefully crafted master files" as you call them, and more so, building files which are modifiable allowing us to react quickly to client requests. Looking at the wonderful advancements in recent releases, in years to come, by your own admission there is a lot on the way, it's hard not to imagine the inflexibility that will eventually filter in. think 5, 10 years down the line.

the thing is, a few years ago, cs3, we standardized on Ilustrator - before that we mostly used Coral Draw (at the time it was Rev4). It took a lot of effort to do it but it was worth it. From our years of using CoralDraw, we have a lot of legacy files, and I mean a lot. Our clients have built a lot of trust in us, they have expectations of us. We still have CoralDraw installed on every machine to allow us to react when a client come calling, or we need to reference a previous design. Sure, you can open some versions of CoralDraw files in some versions of illustrator, but again you lose functionality, lose the ability to react quickly. We could have batch exported literally thousands of files to PDF or EPS and taken our chances on import but at what cost?

if CoralDraw was a subscription service, we would have had to maintain that subscription, paying for an obsolete software package or rolled the dice on every import.

we moved from CoralDraw because Illustrator was a superior package. What if, in years to come, Adobe is no longer on top of the pile? This is just 1 of many scenarios that literally keep me awake at night.

James  

 

« Last Edit: September 09, 2013, 06:23:57 pm by designpartners »
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Wayland

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Re: Photoshop & Creative Cloud: We’re Listening?
« Reply #153 on: September 09, 2013, 06:19:17 pm »

I don't know if the following information will help alleviate any fears regarding layered PSD/TIFF files (e.g., carefully crafted "master files"), but here goes. Thomas has informed me that Adobe has been very careful in adding features to layered PSD/TIFF in ways so they are still readable (and quite editable) in older Photoshop versions. For example, smart layers become normal layers if they require newer features. If you use a new blend mode or layer effect, you have the option of opening the flattened image exactly, or a layered version with possible visible changes.

Thus, folks who choose later to "get off the CC bus" but still wish to open, convert, print (and perhaps even do some edits to) their layered PSD/TIFF images using an older perpetual version of Photoshop (CS6, CS5, etc.) will continue to be able to do so. The same layered PSD/TIFF files will also be readable in Lightroom, which as Adobe has indicated it intends to keep available in a perpetual license form.


Eric, thank you. That is the first post I have seen, on any forum since this affair hit the fan, that actually addresses my principal concern.

The new deal looks tempting as it is presently being presented and combined with this new information gives me serious pause for thought. My exit strategy up to this point has been looking at the interesting work being done on PhotoLine but this would currently involve similar compromises as outlined in the backward compatibility scenario you have offered.

So, to be clear, is the current intention to commit to such a backward readability path for layered files in the future? Perhaps an option in the save command even if it does mean larger file sizes.
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madmanchan

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Re: Photoshop & Creative Cloud: We’re Listening?
« Reply #154 on: September 09, 2013, 09:17:07 pm »

Hi James,

I hear you and I understand your position. For you and your business, it is very important to be able to "access" the master files per client requests.

Now, I put "access" in quotes because I think we need to carefully distinguish between two types of file/image access: merely viewing the results (which also means saving to other formats, printing, etc.) and editing. The former is basically equivalent to seeing a "flattened" version of the image. The latter means being able to tweak the layers themselves, masks, smart filters, etc.

Are both types of "access" important to you?

Eric
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Eric Chan

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Re: Photoshop & Creative Cloud: We’re Listening?
« Reply #155 on: September 09, 2013, 09:23:25 pm »

So, to be clear, is the current intention to commit to such a backward readability path for layered files in the future? Perhaps an option in the save command even if it does mean larger file sizes.

Hi Wayland,

Yes, indeed -- Ps has maintained a backward compatibility path for several years and the team intends to continue that.  As indicated above, if you choose to use an older version of Ps to read newer files, you should always be able to view (i.e., see, print, save as other formats) the images exactly as you left them.  Same with using Lr.

However, whether or not you'll be able to edit the individual components (e.g., smart filters, smart objects, etc.) will depend on the specific features you used in the document.  For example, if you're just using Ps for curves + adjustment layers + masks, then you'll have no problem editing those files in older Ps versions like CS6, since those older versions also support those features.  On the other hand, if your document uses a smart filter layer for a feature introduced sometime during Photoshop CC, then no, you won't be able to edit that layer in older Ps versions (since those versions came out before the feature, right?).

So, there is an important distinction between viewing and editing in terms of image access (I also wrote this in the note to James above) in terms of an "exit strategy" for subscription going forward.

Please let me know if I can clarify anything ...
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Eric Chan

designpartners

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Re: Photoshop & Creative Cloud: We’re Listening?
« Reply #156 on: September 10, 2013, 03:25:55 am »

Hi James,

I hear you and I understand your position. For you and your business, it is very important to be able to "access" the master files per client requests.

Now, I put "access" in quotes because I think we need to carefully distinguish between two types of file/image access: merely viewing the results (which also means saving to other formats, printing, etc.) and editing. The former is basically equivalent to seeing a "flattened" version of the image. The latter means being able to tweak the layers themselves, masks, smart filters, etc.

Are both types of "access" important to you?

Eric


Hi Eric,

yes, unfortunately both types of access are important to us. We often iterate designs - think of a product refresh, apple is coming out with it's iPhone 5s today for example - physically the same but with upgraded internals and perhaps an updated CMF (colour, finish & Materials). I hear they are launching a gold version for the Chinese markets..  This is very common place in industry.

now if you look at lead times for product to be designed - from initial brief to concept through to production, it's probably 18-24 months (depending on product complexity), then looking at the products lifecycle once launched, if aimed at trend seekers, it could go through an CMF refresh after 6 months (look at updating colours, applying pattern, use of graphics etc) or if it's a more main stream product, that time scale could be 18 months. Now if you look at Medical - that could be many years. (say a company wants to license it product to another company and that company wants their corporate brand integrated into it)

Step 1 in all of this (after you have understood the new brief and performed any research necessary), is to go back to the original files, (which from the above time line could be anything from 2 years to, well anything, 5, 10 years old whatever) and quickly modify them to put together a set of proposals to generate conversations within the design team, the client team and potentially elicit user feedback. Sure for final packaging rendering or final output, having to go back and recreate is OK, because the time is usually there, but as I said in my previous posts, our clients have expectations of us - they want us to react an react fast. 

Thanks for the reply.

James

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designpartners

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Re: Photoshop & Creative Cloud: We’re Listening?
« Reply #157 on: September 10, 2013, 07:37:31 am »

Hi Eric,

To give you a simple example, we build a lot of GUIs (graphic user interfaces) for various things, could be apps, could be bespoke interfaces for large industrial machines, could be software, whatever.

so imagine this this lovely Red and Blue square below is a beautifully crafted GUI for an iPhone App (I know, you'd need a lot of imagination for that! :) )


this is created in CS6, using shape vectors and a stroke.

now our client comes along and says we need an iPad version - well, it vector so a resize is no problem. (or a new form factor yet to be released)



now if I were to open that file in CS5, as a PSD or a TIFF - it becomes rastersized. good luck resizing that..



now for a box with a simple stroke - no big deal right?

but this is what our layer tree normally looks like..



and that's not even that complex.. but there is probably 40 - 50 hours work in that file. And we have a LOT of them.

I hope this puts what we are going through in context.  

James

« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 10:44:24 am by designpartners »
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madmanchan

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Re: Photoshop & Creative Cloud: We’re Listening?
« Reply #158 on: September 10, 2013, 10:26:34 am »

Hi James,

This is a good illustration of your workflow and concerns.  I appreciate your taking the time to describe it and provide the example.

To be honest: my take is that by preserving this workflow, you are still actually using Ps in a fairly sophisticated way.  You have not really "exited" the Ps subscription program, but instead are continuing to receive significant value from being able to edit such documents.  More specifically, you are retaining the ability to go into a (potentially very complex, multi-layered) document, edit individual components, and render out / export a new version for a client.  That's what Adobe is saying they're going to charge you $10 a month to be able to perform ...
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Eric Chan

designpartners

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Re: Photoshop & Creative Cloud: We’re Listening?
« Reply #159 on: September 10, 2013, 10:43:04 am »

Hi James,

This is a good illustration of your workflow and concerns.  I appreciate your taking the time to describe it and provide the example.

To be honest: my take is that by preserving this workflow, you are still actually using Ps in a fairly sophisticated way.  You have not really "exited" the Ps subscription program, but instead are continuing to receive significant value from being able to edit such documents.  More specifically, you are retaining the ability to go into a (potentially very complex, multi-layered) document, edit individual components, and render out / export a new version for a client.  That's what Adobe is saying they're going to charge you $10 a month to be able to perform ...

Hi Eric,

unfortunately, we don't qualify... and for what we need - take a look at the costs below.

this is an extract from a post on another topic. - http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=78151.msg627986#msg627986

We have about 20 design standard licenses, 3 production premium licences, maybe 15 acrobat pro and a few individual PS, and AI and maybe 10 or 15 PSe licences. (we have no master suite) – small customers to be sure in Adobe grand scheme of things.

we're currently using CS5. we wanted to move to 6 when it was released, but 5.5 being treated as a full release put us 2 releases behind which we certainly weren’t pleased about.. but we can get over that..

in general, we've upgraded every 2 releases. we certainly see the advantage of upgrades, but we have to balance costs.

so.. the last time we upgraded from CS 3 to CS5, I think it cost us about €18k  - so annualized, €6k.. a very manageable amount of money.

the thing is, almost none of us use just 1 program, a lot of us use PS, AI and ID on a daily basis. design standard was the ideal package for the majority of us, and we expanded where needed.

I certainly understand the benefit of the full master suite - I'd love to have it.. but.. not everyone in our team need it.. you can buy the individual licences but, it's not really viable to do it for 3 individual licenses per user.

quickly doing the math - even just for 25 CC licences (which isn't enough for us but probably representative of what we currently use) - €61 per user per month, that's 61*12*25  - that comes to €18k per year!  

now to make things worse, instead of getting a discount for buying 25 licenses, they introduce "teams"... so instead of paying €61 per month, it's €86!!!  so that's 86*12*25 - that's almost €26,000 per year!!!
I like centrally managed licenses, I don't need 100gb of online storage.
  
so that goes from an annualized cost of €6k per year to €26k per year..

__________________________

so that's a pretty big jump - we're growing, getting more users, our bill may be €50k per year in the not too distant future through expansion and increases. having just gone through a recession, where we had to make the choice between layoffs and software maintenance, we chose to invest in our staff, if we didn't we wouldn't be as strong as we are today. we were able to hold off our maintenance to our PTC, Autodesk, Keyshot and Dassault systems software companies for a year or 2 and keep our staff and maintain the ability to work.  we are now back on maintenance for most software, having paid a penalty for our hiatus, but that allowed us to survive..  

my point is who knows what the future holds, but I know Adobes' success depends on it's clients success, and I know Adobe employees want us to succeed, but... some of the decision makers are not making it easy.

if it was $10 a month, I wouldn't even be talking about it.. but it's actually more like buying 25 Design Standard licenses every year..

James
« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 11:13:18 am by designpartners »
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