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Author Topic: Photoshop & Creative Cloud: We’re Listening?  (Read 51732 times)

Rhossydd

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Re: Photoshop & Creative Cloud: We’re Listening?
« Reply #120 on: September 07, 2013, 03:23:08 am »

This offer is a Creative Cloud offer. It is not a Photoshop CC subscription, with a perpetual license of Lightroom thrown in. It is a Creative Cloud subscription that includes Lightroom and Photoshop.
Thanks for the clarification.
I'll stick to the perpetual licence version of Lightroom then. I can happily live without PS CC.
Money saved.
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john beardsworth

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Re: Photoshop & Creative Cloud: We’re Listening?
« Reply #121 on: September 07, 2013, 03:52:07 am »

Mike
If you stop subscribing, does Lightroom stop working? There's inconsistency between what you just said and Eric's comments.
John
unless you have a perpetual LR license on top of that... or I 'd assume you can stop subscription and buy perpetual license right away for LR

Sorry, I was asking Mike, not seeking others' assumptions. He subsequently gave a clear answer here:

Yes. If you have purchased a perpetual license of Lightroom, then that will continue to work, even if you start and stop a Creative Cloud membership.

John
« Last Edit: September 07, 2013, 04:48:17 am by johnbeardy »
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PhotoEcosse

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Re: Photoshop & Creative Cloud: We’re Listening?
« Reply #122 on: September 07, 2013, 04:53:15 am »

I think that the only problem with continuing to use (or reverting to) an old perpetual licence version of Lightroom or ACR will come if you change your camera at some later date and the new Raw file format is not compatible with your software.

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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Photoshop & Creative Cloud: We’re Listening?
« Reply #123 on: September 07, 2013, 05:10:02 am »

I think that the only problem with continuing to use (or reverting to) an old perpetual licence version of Lightroom or ACR will come if you change your camera at some later date and the new Raw file format is not compatible with your software.

Hi,

That's why I've never liked the idea of an image editor being dependent on a specific version of a Raw-converter. Having to update one's image editor to allow the use of a Rawconverter makes things unnecessarily complex and expensive for end-users.

Raw conversion and image editing are two very different operations, and they could in the vast majority of cases be handled independently, if designed properly.

Cheers,
Bart
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Rand47

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Re: Photoshop & Creative Cloud: We’re Listening?
« Reply #124 on: September 07, 2013, 09:19:34 am »

Well... In this digital world we are all "chasing the technology."   Like it or not it is true.  In fact, as a hobbyist that has been part of the fun - seeing ever increasing image quality, flexibility and possibility.  

How many of us are using the same cameras we used even three years ago?  The same versions of any software from five years ago?  Look at the FOR SALE section and add up the first page's asking prices.  Deduct that from what we all paid retail and the cost of "owning" your gear will make the cost of "renting" your software look like mana from heaven.  It is all semantics, IMO.  

For me, the new CC Photographer's package is a bargain, even WHEN the price will rise over time (just like every other freaking thing on the planet).  Not having to think about keeping ACR, PS & LR versions in synch is a nice plus for me too.  

I had initially the same "I want to own, not rent" reaction.  As I looked at my history of upgrades over the last decade, and how many pages of version numbers, product keys, etc. I have in my notes - well, it kinda made the distinction a little moot.

As I chase the technology, get new gear over time, and enjoy even greater image quality, flexibility, and possibility - the software (rental or not) will remain a very key component and still the cheapest part of the equation by a huge margin.  So, for me at least, after looking at the "big picture" I came to the conclusion that while I'd rather have Adobe pay me to use their software that probably wasn't going to happen and that the value using their products represents, as a percentage of my total expenditure on "photography," is the most cost effective part of it.  One man's opinion.  

Oh, and my fingernails don't turn yellow from using Adobe like they did when I used Kodak.  ;D

Rand
« Last Edit: September 07, 2013, 10:27:37 am by Rand47 »
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Steve House

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Re: Photoshop & Creative Cloud: We’re Listening?
« Reply #125 on: September 07, 2013, 09:48:31 am »

...  

I had initially the same "I want to own, not rent" reaction.  As I looked at my history of upgrades over the last decade, and how many pages of version numbers, product keys, etc. I have in my notes - well, it kinda made the distinction a little moot.
...
It's not so much a preference for owning software over renting it that is the issue.  It's that if you stop renting you can no longer continue to work with the files you created.  Of course that's not really new.  In my negative files there are some B&W images that look just right when printed on Agfa Brovira graded paper.  Want to make a new print today that looks the same?  Lot's o' luck!  Got a great slide shot in 1975 you want to make into an exhibition print using the dye-transfer process?  Used to be any big city had a professional color lab where you could go.  These days professional labs are scarcer then hen's teeth. Ctein bought up the worlds last supplies of dye-transfer materials and I believe they have now been used up,  so no more dye-transfer prints are possible from any source.  Okay, let's try Cibachrome instead - again, materials no longer made.  Those really are similar situations to what folks will encounter when they stop paying their rental fees to Adobe.  
« Last Edit: September 07, 2013, 09:50:38 am by Steve House »
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Rand47

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Re: Photoshop & Creative Cloud: We’re Listening?
« Reply #126 on: September 07, 2013, 10:11:11 am »

Quote
Those really are similar situations to what folks will encounter when they stop paying their rental fees to Adobe.  

Exactly.  Things change over time.  But, we have it better these days in that we can export and archive our work as tiffs, at least.   But we're still stuck using "somebody's" software, right?  Unless you can write your own?

And let's be honest here.  Anyone out there using the Photoshop / ACR 1.x version you originally bought and "owned?"  Anyone out there who has never upgraded?  Anyone out there ever have firm plans to absolutely stop at PSx and never upgrade no matter what improvements might come in the future?  Anyone out there who decided to just keep using your current camera forever since getting a new one would require you to "buy the latest version" of software that supports it?   Let's get real.  The reality is that all these elements in the advance of digital photography are interrelated and interdependent.  

There are real issues related to archiving, permanence and access to files as it relates to the flow of history in the world of photography - but those issues exist irrespective of "rent or own" anyone's software.  Heck, "digital photography" as we know it might someday be replaced with some other imaging technology that represents an even more radical change than the analog-to-digital paradigm shift.

Rand
« Last Edit: September 07, 2013, 10:22:40 am by Rand47 »
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David Luery

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Re: Photoshop & Creative Cloud: We’re Listening?
« Reply #127 on: September 07, 2013, 10:26:53 am »

There are two ways you can get Lightroom.

1. You can purchase a perpetual license. This does not provide access to future new versions of the software, although you will have any access to updates (i.e. 5.1, 5.2, etc...) of that software.

2. You can get Lightroom as part of a Creative Cloud membership. You have access to Lightroom, including future updates and versions as long as you continue to be a member of Creative Cloud.

This offer is a Creative Cloud offer. It is not a Photoshop CC subscription, with a perpetual license of Lightroom thrown in. It is a Creative Cloud subscription that includes Lightroom and Photoshop.

It is not my intent to throw cold water on what I think is a sincere attempt by Adobe to address the concerns of photographers, but ...

I have subscribed to Photoshop under the $9.99 single application offer, and at the same time upgraded Lightroom to the perpetual license Lightroom 5, with the intention to continue upgrading the perpetually licensed Lightroom.  Under this scenario, I was viewing Lr as my solution to problem of what happens when / if I stop subscribing to Photoshop CC.  Now if I understand what Mike is saying, under the new PS CC + Lr CC plan, both PS and Lr would cease working if / when I stop my subscription.  Thus it appears that I will want to continue upgrading my perpetually licensed Lr, so the net benefit to me of the PS CC + Lr CC plan is that the $9.99 price is not just a single year introductory price.  Rather it is the standard or base, etc., price (which I assume Adobe will raise over time as the cost of living increases, and I certainly can't complain about that).

My question is, am I properly understanding the implications of the PS CC + Lr CC offering?

So while I sincerely do appreciate this offer by Adobe, it still leaves the problem that is most concerning for me, which is what some people call the 'exit strategy' for photographers.  In the end the absence of a 'solution' for loyal customers who for one reason or another -- loss of employment, retirement and consequent reduction in income, etc. -- feel they must drop their subscription but what to continue using the tools they used to process the images in their collection.

Best regards,

David
« Last Edit: September 07, 2013, 10:33:20 am by dluery »
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Simon Garrett

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Re: Photoshop & Creative Cloud: We’re Listening?
« Reply #128 on: September 07, 2013, 10:42:12 am »

I have subscribed to Photoshop under the $9.99 single application offer, and at the same time upgraded Lightroom to the perpetual license Lightroom 5, with the intention to continue upgrading the perpetually licensed Lightroom.  Under this scenario, I was viewing Lr as my solution to problem of what happens when / if I stop subscribing to Photoshop CC.  Now if I understand what Mike is saying, under the new PS CC + Lr CC plan, both PS and Lr would cease working if / when I stop my subscription.

I don't think this is correct.  If you already have perpetual licences to LR and PS, and then take out a subscription to CC, those perpetual LR and PS licences exist in addition to your subscription licence to LR and PS.  If you subsequently stop your CC licence, you still have the perpetual licences, albeit not updated. 

I specifically asked Adobe this on a chat session a day or two ago, and they confirmed this. 
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Rand47

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Re: Photoshop & Creative Cloud: We’re Listening?
« Reply #129 on: September 07, 2013, 10:42:25 am »

Quote
am I properly understanding the implications

Probably.  And what that means is that on the day you decide to nuke your subscription you'll need to pop for whatever is the price of Lightroom perpetual at that time - which will probably be in the neighborhood of one year's subscription price.  Then in another "X" months, buy the next upgrade, and the next, and the next, and the next... unless you need or want to ossify at some point in the progression of ongoing advances in the technology.  And the same will be true with anyone's software products, owned or not.  Keep up, or ossify, those are the choices. The method of keeping up is moot.  The cost of keeping up varies.  If ossification is the choice at some point, the real issue will be to start archiving the finished work in the "most likely to survive over time" format (which will also undoubtedly change over time).   ;D

Rand  
« Last Edit: September 07, 2013, 11:04:44 am by Rand47 »
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Dave (Isle of Skye)

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Re: Photoshop & Creative Cloud: We’re Listening?
« Reply #130 on: September 07, 2013, 10:42:45 am »

A lot of us baulked at the price of PS within CC and the fact that we could no longer buy PS with a perpetual license.

We were told that this is the way of the modern world and if we did not like it, then Adobe was quite happy to show us the exit, because photographers didn’t add much to Adobe’s revenue stream and PS was never designed for photographers anyway.

Then there was concern that LR would also only become available as part of the CC subscription model, but photographers were assured there were no plans to do this.

Now Adobe decides that photographers do matter after all and to prove this have bundled LR and PS together, into a cheaper subscription licensing package for photographers and told us that this is our reward for being loyal customers, and that LR CC will have many features not available in the perpetual license version, which by definition means the perpetual license version of LR will be hobbled in some way and probably allowed to wither and die on the vine.

Yet lots of people who initially couldn’t accept Adobe’s locked in life time subscription fees, saw the low $9.99 time limited sign up option being dangled in front of their eyes and seemed willing to forget there are no price guarantees going into the future and no exit strategy.

So, even though we didn’t want PS by subscription, Adobe’s answer has been, well lets add LR into the subscription package for a ‘hook them in’ price and the only question you will hear, is where do I sign?

You really have got to hand it to Adobe, or at least the clever so-and-so who hatched up this latest scheme, because it seems that every time Adobe stumbles, they always land on their feet.

Dave
« Last Edit: September 07, 2013, 10:54:31 am by Dave (Isle of Skye) »
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Rick Popham

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Re: Photoshop & Creative Cloud: We’re Listening?
« Reply #131 on: September 07, 2013, 11:07:33 am »

... LR CC will have many features not available in the perpetual license version, which by definition means the perpetual license version of LR will be hobbled in some way and probably allowed to wither and die on the vine.

I must have missed that part.  My impression is that LR as included in this offer IS the perpetual version, but will disappear if you stop paying for CC.  There is only one version of LR, but they're including access to it (not a license for it) when you sign up for this deal.
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john beardsworth

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Re: Photoshop & Creative Cloud: We’re Listening?
« Reply #132 on: September 07, 2013, 11:17:32 am »

Quote from: Dave on Skye
LR CC will have many features not available in the perpetual license version, which by definition means the perpetual license version of LR will be hobbled in some way and probably allowed to wither and die on the vine.

I must have missed that part.

Dave has misinterpreted that aspect. From all I've heard, there will not be two versions but LR may gain Adobe Cloud services which you'd only be able to use with a subscription. See an example in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=yk5JiVby7eQ#t=1988 - 37 minutes in and you'll see Adobe's Tom Hogarty synchronizing work back and forth between LR on two computers (a laptop and an iPad).
« Last Edit: September 07, 2013, 11:22:36 am by johnbeardy »
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Simon Garrett

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Re: Photoshop & Creative Cloud: We’re Listening?
« Reply #133 on: September 07, 2013, 11:22:39 am »

I must have missed that part.  My impression is that LR as included in this offer IS the perpetual version, but will disappear if you stop paying for CC.  There is only one version of LR, but they're including access to it (not a license for it) when you sign up for this deal.
As I understand what Mike Chambers has been saying, there will be two versions of LR: subscription and perpetual-licence, but they will both continue be updated.  If you subscribe to the new "Photoshop Photography Program" you get LR updated as part of that, so long as you subscribe.  The perpetual-licence version will get updated, but you have to pay for the update. 

(This compares to Photoshop, where the perpetual-licence version will no longer be updated.) 

If you stop subscribing to CC, you lose CC versions of both PS and LR.  You still have any perpetual versions you had before subscribing to CC, but those won't have been updated in the mean time, of course. 
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Dave (Isle of Skye)

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Re: Photoshop & Creative Cloud: We’re Listening?
« Reply #134 on: September 07, 2013, 12:10:39 pm »

All I am trying to say, is that if we didn't want PS by subscription, how does offering us a low priced and time limited package that also includes LR by subscription, address that original concern? It doesn't, it is simply a way to sweeten the pot and divert peoples attention away from the fact that subscription is still subscription, with no price guarantees for the future and no exit strategy.

Dave
« Last Edit: September 07, 2013, 12:35:55 pm by Dave (Isle of Skye) »
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David Luery

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Re: Photoshop & Creative Cloud: We’re Listening?
« Reply #135 on: September 07, 2013, 01:18:10 pm »

I don't think this is correct.  If you already have perpetual licences to LR and PS, and then take out a subscription to CC, those perpetual LR and PS licences exist in addition to your subscription licence to LR and PS.  If you subsequently stop your CC licence, you still have the perpetual licences, albeit not updated. 

I specifically asked Adobe this on a chat session a day or two ago, and they confirmed this. 

I understand that the perpetually licensed version of Lr5 I have already purchased will continue to work if / when I terminate my subscription to the PS CC + Lr CC offer.  What I meant to be saying is that I believe I will need to continue upgrading the perpetual licensed Lr, as the Lr that is part of the new PS CC + Lr CC offer will not work if / when I stop subscribing.  So for me that addition of Lr to the PS CC subscription does not provide the solution to what happens when PS CC stops working if / when I no longer subscribe.

Best,

David
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Rhossydd

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Re: Photoshop & Creative Cloud: We’re Listening?
« Reply #136 on: September 07, 2013, 01:45:42 pm »

What I meant to be saying is that I believe I will need to continue upgrading the perpetual licensed Lr, as the Lr that is part of the new PS CC + Lr CC offer will not work if / when I stop subscribing.
This is an aspect of this package that shouldn't be taken lightly or over looked.
Whilst most work made in Photoshop can be saved to universal file types like TIFF or JPG that are widely supported, work in Lightroom stays in it's own propriety catalogue format (remember that not all edits are saved into the XMP data, but are only held in the catalogue). Furthermore LR catalogues are NOT backwards compatible, you can't work a version 5 catalogue in version 4.
Then remember that Adobe decided to stop offering upgrades their software for less than the last version, eg you couldn't upgrade PS CS4 to CS6, will they do that with LR ? Will you trust their answer ?
The only safe answer is to stick with buying perpetual licences.

It's all a mess. Different Adobe people are saying different things, outlining different policies, making different promises and their track record on this sort of issue is poor.
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Simon Garrett

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Re: Photoshop & Creative Cloud: We’re Listening?
« Reply #137 on: September 07, 2013, 02:03:53 pm »

This is an aspect of this package that shouldn't be taken lightly or over looked.
Whilst most work made in Photoshop can be saved to universal file types like TIFF or JPG that are widely supported, work in Lightroom stays in it's own propriety catalogue format (remember that not all edits are saved into the XMP data, but are only held in the catalogue). Furthermore LR catalogues are NOT backwards compatible, you can't work a version 5 catalogue in version 4.
Then remember that Adobe decided to stop offering upgrades their software for less than the last version, eg you couldn't upgrade PS CS4 to CS6, will they do that with LR ? Will you trust their answer ?
The only safe answer is to stick with buying perpetual licences.

Or you simply factor-in the cost of Lightroom (or an upgrade if you have an existing perpetual-licence version) if/when you leave CC. 

I don't know if I'll take this new plan, but if I do and subsequently decide to cancel, I'll go back to my current Photoshop CS5, and if necessary upgrade my current LR5. 

It's all a mess.
Yes, it is rather. 
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Rand47

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Re: Photoshop & Creative Cloud: We’re Listening?
« Reply #138 on: September 07, 2013, 02:11:53 pm »

This is an aspect of this package that shouldn't be taken lightly or over looked.
Whilst most work made in Photoshop can be saved to universal file types like TIFF or JPG that are widely supported, work in Lightroom stays in it's own propriety catalogue format (remember that not all edits are saved into the XMP data, but are only held in the catalogue). Furthermore LR catalogues are NOT backwards compatible, you can't work a version 5 catalogue in version 4.
Then remember that Adobe decided to stop offering upgrades their software for less than the last version, eg you couldn't upgrade PS CS4 to CS6, will they do that with LR ? Will you trust their answer ?
The only safe answer is to stick with buying perpetual licences.

It's all a mess. Different Adobe people are saying different things, outlining different policies, making different promises and their track record on this sort of issue is poor.

Prudence, it would seem, dictates that finished work be archived as tiff, and of course your original RAW files have not been touched.  I've been doing that all along w/ LR - long before these recent changes in Adobe's structure appeared.  And, Adobe has said that LR will remain a stand alone perpetual product, lowering the risk of unusable catalogs - though one might need to pony-up the cost of a new perpetual license if you nuke your subscription.  Frankly, I don't see any of this as something "new."  It has been true of any and all software, either rental or "owned" (which is actually a misnomer since the license conditions could be changed at any incremental upgrade).  It is mostly just "the same" in different clothing.

And if we're going to go to the "then I'd have to reprocess my RAWs" ... well, didn't many of us do exactly that when the 2012 process appeared?  I didn't want to leave any IQ on the table by leaving many of my beloved "keepers" less than they "could be" w/ the advances in processing.  So, over time, one by one, I took a look and re-processed to some degree nearly all of my "really proud of" files.

I'm no fanboy of Adobe, I'm not a fanboy of anything.  But some products work better than others, and when you have a better mouse-trap to sell you have an advantage in how you choose to price it, package it, and sell it.

I've just learned to call that "reality."   If you liken it to natural selection, Adobe just happens to be at the top of the food chain at the moment.  It is what it is . . . and for me, "what it is" is pretty darn good - and more so w/ the Photographer's bundle.

Rand
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tuthill

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Re: Photoshop & Creative Cloud: We’re Listening?
« Reply #139 on: September 07, 2013, 02:50:36 pm »

There are two ways you can get Lightroom.

1. You can purchase a perpetual license. This does not provide access to future new versions of the software, although you will have any access to updates (i.e. 5.1, 5.2, etc...) of that software.

2. You can get Lightroom as part of a Creative Cloud membership. You have access to Lightroom, including future updates and versions as long as you continue to be a member of Creative Cloud.

This offer is a Creative Cloud offer. It is not a Photoshop CC subscription, with a perpetual license of Lightroom thrown in. It is a Creative Cloud subscription that includes Lightroom and Photoshop.

Hope that helps...

mike chambers

mesh@adobe.com

I signed up for CC the other day (intending on switching to the new plan when it is available) based on what I understood the new subscription offer would include however I mistakenly thought the Lightroom version included was going to be a perpetual license.  Now that you've clarified I've cancelled the subscription as I can't risk losing my LR catalog due to future catalog updates not being compatible with my perpetual version's catalog.  Thanks for the clarification.
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