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Author Topic: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?  (Read 193290 times)

Vladimirovich

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #180 on: July 14, 2013, 10:11:34 am »

You do not think for a second that the KGB first started by defending its approach by focusing on the need to defeat the ennemies of Russia?

that's how it actually (technically) started (use translate.google.com)... to make sure there is no general strike (of civil/gov't servants)  ;)

"В первые полтора месяца после победы октябрьского вооруженного восстания задачу подавления сопротивления большевистской власти решал Петроградский военно-революционный комитет, работавший под руководством ЦК РСДРП(б) (центральный комитет Российской социал-демократической партии (большевиков) и СНК (Совет народных комиссаров, или Совнарком). 1 декабря 1917 года ВЦИК (Всероссийский центральный исполнительный комитет) рассмотрел вопрос о реорганизации Военно-революционного комитета и образовании вместо него отдела по борьбе с контрреволюцией. 6 декабря Совнарком рассмотрел вопрос "О возможности забастовки служащих в правительственных учреждениях во всероссийском масштабе". Было принято решение создать чрезвычайную комиссию для выяснения возможности борьбы с такой забастовкой путем «самых энергичных революционных мер». На пост председателя комиссии была предложена кандидатура Феликса Дзержинского. В комиссию Дзержинский ввел видных большевиков -- Аверина, Ксенофонтова, Орджоникидзе, Петерса и др.

7 декабря (20-го по новому стилю) Дзержинский на заседании Совнаркома сделал доклад о задачах и правах комиссии. В своей деятельности она, по мнению Дзержинского, должна была обращать внимание прежде всего на печать, «контрреволюционные партии» и саботаж. Ее надлежало наделить довольно широкими правами: производить аресты и конфискации, выселять преступные элементы, лишать продовольственных карточек, публиковать списки врагов народа. СНК во главе с Лениным, заслушав Дзержинского, с его предложениями по наделению нового органа чрезвычайными полномочиями согласился. Именно по предложению Ленина было принято постановление, подтверждавшее непосредственное подчинение ВЧК Совнаркому, а не ЦИК, как предполагалось изначально: «Совет народных комиссаров признает, -- говорилось в постановлении, -- что какие бы то ни было изменения постановлений комиссии Дзержинского, как и других комиссий, назначенных Советами, допустимы только путем обжалования этих постановлений в Совет народных комиссаров». Так родилась ВЧК.

Спустя несколько дней после создания ВЧК переехала из Смольного на Гороховую улицу, в дом 2. Чекисты разместились в кабинетах бывшего отделения по охранению общественной безопасности и порядка управления петроградского градоначальника.

Однако ни один сотрудник царских охранных отделений (распущенных Временным правительством) не пришел на работу в ВЧК -- их просто не брали. Люди, составившие костяк ВЧК, подвергались репрессиям со стороны царского режима, и для них было немыслимо взять на работу своих вчерашних преследователей. Архивисты Лубянки в последние годы неоднократно проводили исследования и ни одного человека из охранки не выявили. Так новая спецслужба начала свою работу -- с нуля: сюда пришли убежденные дилетанты.

23 февраля 1918 года ВЧК направила во все Советы радиотелеграмму с рекомендацией немедленно организовать в районах чрезвычайные комиссии по борьбе с контрреволюцией, саботажем и спекуляцией, если таковые еще не организованы. Одной из первых была образована Московская ЧК. Вслед за ней стали создаваться отделы и комиссариаты по борьбе с контрреволюцией в других городах. 12 июня 1918 года I Всероссийская конференция ЧК приняла "Основные положения об организации чрезвычайных комиссий". В августе 1918 года в Советской республике насчитывалось 75 уездных чрезвычайных комиссий. К концу года было создано 365 уездных ЧК.

Работать в ВЧК было не только престижно, но и выгодно. В 1918 году зарплата члена коллегии ВЧК была 500 руб., что равнялось окладу наркомов. Рядовые чекисты получали 400 руб. Помимо денежного вознаграждения сотрудники ВЧК получали продовольственные и промышленные пайки. Кстати, о легендарных кожанках. Первым сотрудникам ВЧК раздали обмундирование, предназначенное для летчиков первой мировой. Это был «подарок Антанты», который большевики нашли на военных складах Петрограда. (Позже кожаные куртки стали шить для чекистов уже как форменные.)

После революции процентов 80 сотрудников ЧК были рабочими и крестьянами, представители «эксплуататорских классов» не приветствовались. Но первые руководители ЧК преимущественно были интеллигентами из числа так называемых профессиональных революционеров: сам Дзержинский -- из дворян, правда, без образования, дворяне с университетским образованием -- Менжинский, Бокий, высшее образование было и у Ольского, Урицкого и Уншлихта. При подборе руководящих работников для ЧК принадлежность к РКП(б) считалась обязательным условием. По данным на октябрь 1918 года, в 94 губернских и уездных комиссиях из 450 руководящих работников 403 являлись коммунистами, 40 -- сочувствующими коммунистам и семь -- членами «мелкобуржуазных партий». В 65 из 94 чрезвычайных комиссий, в том числе во всех губернских ЧК, ответственные должности занимали коммунисты. Так партия становилась «вдохновителем и организатором» репрессий.

Член Петроградского военно-революционного комитета, руководитель Бюро комиссаров ВРК, в июле--ноябре 1918 года возглавлявший ЧК и Военный трибунал, первый официальный историограф советских спецслужб Мартын Лацис утверждал: «ЧК -- это не следственная коллегия и не суд... это -- боевой орган партии будущего, партии коммунистической. Она уничтожает без суда или изолирует от общества, заключая в концлагерь. Что слово -- то закон. Нет такой области, куда не должна вмешиваться ЧК". Совнарком облекал эту риторику в декреты и постановления. Органы госбезопасности получали все большие полномочия. И власть ЧК становилась всеобъемлющей.

Деятельность ВЧК должны были контролировать народные комиссариаты юстиции и внутренних дел. Должны были... Заместитель наркома юстиции Николай Крыленко, человек, которого вряд ли можно «упрекнуть» в излишнем гуманизме, писал: «ВЧК страшен беспощадностью своей репрессии и полной непроницаемостью для чьего бы то ни было взгляда». Крыленко предлагал передать органы госбезопасности в наркомат юстиции, чтобы и на местах чекисты были под контролем губернских юристов. Дзержинский воспринял это как оскорбление: «Отдача ВЧК под надзор наркомата юстиции роняет наш престиж, умаляет наш авторитет в борьбе с преступлениями, подтверждает все белогвардейские россказни о наших «беззакониях»... Это акт не надзора, а акт дискредитации ВЧК и ее органов. ЧК находятся под надзором партии. Губюсты -- это органы формальной справедливости, а ЧК органы дисциплинированной партийной боевой дружины».

Дзержинский считал: «Работники ЧК -- это солдаты революции. Право расстрела для ЧК чрезвычайно важно». И был услышан. С февраля 1918-го на основании декрета СНК «Социалистическое отечество в опасности» чекисты получили чрезвычайные полномочия и право применять высшую меру без суда и следствия (вплоть до расстрела на месте), которое было подтверждено постановлением СНК от 5 сентября 1918 года «О красном терроре». Политбюро и СНК, государство, принимавшее человеконенавистнические законы, дали своей карательной системе (куда, кстати, входили и прокуратура, и суды) право на все. "
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Alan Klein

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #181 on: July 14, 2013, 02:53:03 pm »

Would you translate that for us? Or is it in code?

Rob C

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #182 on: July 14, 2013, 05:29:36 pm »

Would you translate that for us? Or is it in code?


No: Letraset block type. Great for layouts!

Rob C

Rocco Penny

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #183 on: July 14, 2013, 05:32:05 pm »

barbaric :)
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #184 on: July 14, 2013, 06:01:21 pm »

Would you translate that for us? Or is it in code?

Nothing sinister in that text... just an intro into how the VCK, a predecessor to KGB, was formed and given unlimited powers (including the right to kill on the spot) without any judicial control or consequences. The justification was, of course, defense of the new state from its "enemies."

nemo295

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #185 on: July 14, 2013, 07:12:29 pm »

Nothing sinister in that text... just an intro into how the VCK, a predecessor to KGB, was formed and given unlimited powers (including the right to kill on the spot) without any judicial control or consequences. The justification was, of course, defense of the new state from its "enemies."

And of course Vladimir Putin, a former Lieutenant Colonel in the KGB and currently the de facto dictator of Russia, comes directly from that tradition. And this is the country to which Snowden has just applied for asylum? I think that speaks volumes about just how messed up his vaunted "moral judgement" really is. Snowden is a naive fool. He has no clue whatsoever what actual spying entails or what the NSA is really trying to do. He failed to see the big picture before he acted and now he's paying the price for his stupidity.

It's no wonder that the only countries willing to give him asylum are authoritarian hell holes. Snowden is about to get a hard lesson in realpolitik. Let those who condemn the NSA offer their own alternative for detecting terrorist plots. I'm sure we'd all love to know how they would prevent them. Until then, I'll take the NSA's gathering of metadata and oversight by FISA over the KGB/FSB's unfettered spying and contempt for the rule of law any day.
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Rocco Penny

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #186 on: July 14, 2013, 07:31:18 pm »

Nothing sinister in that text... just an intro into how the VCK, a predecessor to KGB, was formed and given unlimited powers (including the right to kill on the spot) without any judicial control or consequences. The justification was, of course, defense of the new state from its "enemies."
This gets lost in translation,
that is, the jump between innocent until proven guilty,
and just how the money part of this works.
So does the nation's intelligence and law enforcement agencies have the mandate to turn the weapons only ever used openly on foreign govts, to domestic subversives, and activists, poor people, and reform movements?
Just last month there was a big hoopla about the southern california tea partiers having to answer a questionnaire about how many times its members had been arrested or along those lines.
There is no diff between now, and when the fbi and cia infiltrated and cast burdens on subversives and peace activists circa 65-75 here in cali
All the way to killing and bombing and general mayhem directed by the US govt.
It's their business.
The difference is they only used to do it to named groups and their associates,
you know,
the black panthers, aim, democratic students, etc,
now they do it to all of you,
HAHAHA
suckers
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #187 on: July 14, 2013, 08:03:50 pm »

... I think that speaks volumes about just how messed up his vaunted "moral judgement" really is...

Actually, Doug, the whole debate is not, paradoxically enough, about him, but about us and the government, about docile masses and power grab, about the trade-off between freedom and security. He was just a messenger (and now trying not to get shot).

dreed

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #188 on: July 15, 2013, 02:20:24 am »

And of course Vladimir Putin, a former Lieutenant Colonel in the KGB and currently the de facto dictator of Russia, comes directly from that tradition. And this is the country to which Snowden has just applied for asylum? I think that speaks volumes about just how messed up his vaunted "moral judgement" really is.

On the contrary, I think it speaks volumes about the much vaunted right to trial and judicial process in the USA. He'd rather live in a country that you question the government of than in one that claims to have a democratically elected government but has no qualms about torturing prisoners.

Considering that Snowden will again never be able to return home, he is in effect going to be in a jail of sorts for the rest of his life.

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Snowden is a naive fool. He has no clue whatsoever what actual spying entails or what the NSA is really trying to do. He failed to see the big picture before he acted and now he's paying the price for his stupidity.

Wrong, he's got more guts than most of the other people that work for the government and either turn a blind eye to the lies or help further them.

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It's no wonder that the only countries willing to give him asylum are authoritarian hell holes. Snowden is about to get a hard lesson in realpolitik. Let those who condemn the NSA offer their own alternative for detecting terrorist plots. I'm sure we'd all love to know how they would prevent them. Until then, I'll take the NSA's gathering of metadata and oversight by FISA over the KGB/FSB's unfettered spying and contempt for the rule of law any day.

How do you know that the NSA just gathers metadata? Because they say so? After all of their denials about doing that and evidence now being presented, how can you trust them? The NSA are acting in a manner that is no better than the KGB/FSB. There's no public review of the FISA so while it sounds nice having it present, all that it really means is that there is a rubber stamp process to follow. It allows those (such as the NSA) that need FISA approval to say "See, the FISA approved it so it must be ok."

You know what I'd prefer?

I'd prefer to say this:

"OK, you terrorists might fly buildings into planes, blow up toilets in marathons and scare people but we the people of America are a free people that respect privacy and our freedoms. We are not going to give those up to your threats of violence - we're going to hold strong to our beliefs. We the people of the USA will not give in to your intimidation, threats or acts of violence. Yes, some of us may die for that freedom on our home soil but that is better than sending troops overseas to murder and die in a foreign land. Freedom isn't free and if dieing at home means that the USA continues to be a free nation then that's a price we should be all willing to pay."
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Vladimirovich

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #189 on: July 15, 2013, 08:54:35 am »

Because they say so?
come on... RSL read that in WSJ  ;D
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RSL

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #190 on: July 15, 2013, 10:39:35 am »

"OK, you terrorists might fly buildings into planes, blow up toilets in marathons and scare people but we the people of America are a free people that respect privacy and our freedoms. We are not going to give those up to your threats of violence - we're going to hold strong to our beliefs. We the people of the USA will not give in to your intimidation, threats or acts of violence. Yes, some of us may die for that freedom on our home soil but that is better than sending troops overseas to murder and die in a foreign land. Freedom isn't free and if dieing at home means that the USA continues to be a free nation then that's a price we should be all willing to pay."

Dreed, Flying airplanes into buildings and blowing up toilets is bb-gun level stuff. It's pretty obvious you haven't a clue what would happen if a "small" a nuclear weapon went off in one or our cities. You might get your hands on and study the U.S. Government publication The Effects of Nuclear Weapons. Among other things the book lays out the results of research from the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bursts, both of which were "small." If you really think what the NSA is doing now unduly restricts our freedoms, you'll be astonished at the restrictions a vast majority will DEMAND if that level of attack occurs because the NSA was prevented from doing its job by people who are ignorant of what's actually at stake.
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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #191 on: July 15, 2013, 11:13:32 am »

Dreed, Flying airplanes into buildings and blowing up toilets is bb-gun level stuff. It's pretty obvious you haven't a clue what would happen if a "small" a nuclear weapon went off in one or our cities. You might get your hands on and study the U.S. Government publication The Effects of Nuclear Weapons. Among other things the book lays out the results of research from the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bursts, both of which were "small." If you really think what the NSA is doing now unduly restricts our freedoms, you'll be astonished at the restrictions a vast majority will DEMAND if that level of attack occurs because the NSA was prevented from doing its job by people who are ignorant of what's actually at stake.

Perhaps you should first stop calling people ignorant. Ignorance requires education, and calling people stupid is not exactly helping them become educated. Neither is hiding behind secrecy. The world is not divided up between some elite and the ignorant. If the vast majority prefers to be ignorati with an idea of freedom and suffer the consequences, then perhaps you should accept that you live in a democracy.

Secondly, since the Japanese have actually suffered those attacks, might I ask what "restrictions" they have "demanded" after these attacks?

Thirdly, you keep telling us about unknown doomsday scenarios that might happen because of our ignorance. The reality is however that we didn't suffer 9/11 attacks each and every day because of our collective heads-in-the-sand approach to intelligence prior to 9/11.

Fourthly, NO these are not my arguments AGAINST intel collection. As technology progresses, so should intelgathering. But that doesn't mean they get to write their own laws.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #192 on: July 15, 2013, 11:18:53 am »

If you really think what the NSA is doing now unduly restricts our freedoms, you'll be astonished at the restrictions a vast majority will DEMAND if that level of attack occurs because the NSA was prevented from doing its job by people who are ignorant of what's actually at stake.

Assuming that Islamic terrorism is what you have in mind, what is the key event having triggered the kind of hatred likely to generate such terrorism?

The #1 cause is the war in Irak that is apparently seen by many muslim extremists as a war against their religion.

Who caused the war in Irak? The intelligence community in the US.

So we have an amazingly clear example of vicious circle where a belief in future terrorist threats justifies a very elaborate set of lies that end up being the very cause of more future terrorist threats... only with 10 times more potential bombers.

Considering this track record, it seems reasonable to request citizens control... right?

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: July 15, 2013, 11:41:36 am by BernardLanguillier »
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Rob C

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #193 on: July 15, 2013, 11:49:39 am »

Assuming that Islamic terrorism is what you have in mind, what is the key event having triggered the kind of hatred likely to generate such terrorism?

The #1 cause is the war in Irak that is apparently seen by many muslim extremists as a war against their religion.Who caused the war in Irak? The intelligence community in the US.

So we have an amazingly clear example of vicious circle where a belief in future terrorist threats justifies a very elaborate set of lies that end up being the very cause of more future terrorist threats... only with 10 times more potential bombers. Send drones to Yemen and collateral damage innocent families... more bombers.

Who needs enemies when you have such friends looking over your shoulder.

Considering this track record, it seems reasonable to request citizens control... right?

But wait... I see a strange similarity with the gun control discussion... We need more guns to protect ourselves... against... those guys who have guns?

Cheers,
Bernard


Really? It's something that's been going on since the Crusades, all of them. It has connections to the US's obvious love affair with Isreal - hardly surprising when you think about what powers much of America - and don't forget the Wahabist concept, where anybody who isn't with them is agin them and fair game for the scimitar. Or the Semtex. Or the fertilizer, if you're strapped for cash.

It's all a friggin' mess. I wish we had a viable, affordable alternative to gasoline/diesel/plastic. Nah, not coal; that would bring back the union dinosaurs and their power structures and games...

Rob C

RSL

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #194 on: July 15, 2013, 01:06:27 pm »

Ignorance requires education.

Eh? Come again?

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Secondly, since the Japanese have actually suffered those attacks, might I ask what "restrictions" they have "demanded" after these attacks?

Japan hasn't had to worry about attacks since 1945 when the United States took on the burden of their defense.

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Thirdly, you keep telling us about unknown doomsday scenarios that might happen because of our ignorance. The reality is however that we didn't suffer 9/11 attacks each and every day because of our collective heads-in-the-sand approach to intelligence prior to 9/11.

That's exactly why we suffered the 9/11 attack -- because by government edict we were forced to stick our heads in the sand. You might try reading a bit more widely.
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Vladimirovich

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #195 on: July 15, 2013, 01:39:44 pm »


That's exactly why we suffered the 9/11 attack


no... because what goes around comes around.
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nemo295

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #196 on: July 15, 2013, 01:46:09 pm »

On the contrary, I think it speaks volumes about the much vaunted right to trial and judicial process in the USA. He'd rather live in a country that you question the government of than in one that claims to have a democratically elected government but has no qualms about torturing prisoners.

That's a laugh. I suppose you think Russia, Nicaragua and Venezuela are gardens of freedom and democracy? And you accuse others of living in denial? If Snowden is such a martyr to justice and democracy, why is it that that no western industrial nation has offered him asylum when all of them would refuse to extradite a political refugee? Or in your little paranoid world do you actually believe that these countries are in the pocket of the U.S.? I doubt, for example, that anyone could accuse France of being bullied into submission by America. After all, this is the country that told the U.S. to get lost when we wanted them to join in the Iraq invasion in 2003. No, I'm afraid that Snowden is stuck with life in autocratic nations, because the more democratic ones have seen him for the grandstanding idiot he is.

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Considering that Snowden will again never be able to return home, he is in effect going to be in a jail of sorts for the rest of his life.

He has no one but himself to blame for that.

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Wrong, he's got more guts than most of the other people that work for the government and either turn a blind eye to the lies or help further them.

He's a fool and a spineless simp whose egomania has led him on a false crusade against an imagined injustice.

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How do you know that the NSA just gathers metadata? Because they say so? After all of their denials about doing that and evidence now being presented, how can you trust them?

A much better question is why don't you trust them? All you've offered is paranoia and unsubstantiated accusations. As the accuser, the onus is on you to provide us with evidence to support your argument that the NSA is unworthy of trust. You haven't done that, because there's no substance to your accusations. I'd sooner trust the NSA than your worthless diatribes.

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The NSA are acting in a manner that is no better than the KGB/FSB. There's no public review of the FISA so while it sounds nice having it present, all that it really means is that there is a rubber stamp process to follow. It allows those (such as the NSA) that need FISA approval to say "See, the FISA approved it so it must be ok."

Do you have any evidence whatsoever to prove what you're saying, or are we supposed to accept it on faith merely because it comes from you?

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You know what I'd prefer?

I'd prefer to say this:

"OK, you terrorists might fly buildings into planes, blow up toilets in marathons and scare people but we the people of America are a free people that respect privacy and our freedoms. We are not going to give those up to your threats of violence - we're going to hold strong to our beliefs. We the people of the USA will not give in to your intimidation, threats or acts of violence. Yes, some of us may die for that freedom on our home soil but that is better than sending troops overseas to murder and die in a foreign land. Freedom isn't free and if dieing at home means that the USA continues to be a free nation then that's a price we should be all willing to pay."

Now the truth finally comes out: you're just fine with sitting back and letting terrorists carry out their plans. You wouldn't lift a finger to prevent an attack on my country, just so you could protect the sacred "privacy" of your phone bill. Well, I'm sorry, but I think that saving lives is more important than your metadata. I prefer to say this: if the NSA's Prism program has been compromised because of what your pal Snowden has done, you should offer to dig the graves of the people who are murdered in the next terrorist attack with your bare hands.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2013, 01:50:01 pm by Doug Frost »
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RSL

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #197 on: July 15, 2013, 02:07:37 pm »

Ignorance requires education. . .

Actually, after thinking about this I realize that considering the state of our education system you may have a point.
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Rocco Penny

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #198 on: July 15, 2013, 05:27:36 pm »

My personal objection is that we seem to have a sliding scale as to the value of life, dignity, and freedom.
So, if you're willing to go along with the system, and live within that construct, and hopefully find a comfortable if happy existence,  you have no problem here.
There are small inconveniences like getting the wrong persons bridge fare through the mail,
because now the technology has done away with toll takers, and replaced them with cameras that mail out the fare, and pay you must,
so there have been numerous erroneous tickets mailed due to the camera getting it wrong.
It won't bother you to deal with that sort of thing,
but how about when you choose to exercise your constitutional rights, and get photographed, contact documented, and later put over to a series of lists and protocols to maybe heighten the scrutiny your name gets at every subsequent contact.
So, like maybe monsanto really did hire blackwater to keep track of activists worldwide,
like maybe chevron and safeway, nabisco and adm have all of our backs and wont deplete the worlds resources until there aren't too many options.
Like we'll all just let anyone do just whatever they want in the name of hegemony of well,
the people that can least defend themselves to you know we strong moral and unfailing democracies.
Like the one that has just about abandoned any hope of a good outcome in the two war zones we are responsible for.
But enough carping,
let the dark forces destroy themselves,
that's the end of the line,
whether we all get destroyed as um they call it collateral damage I believe,
well that's what my first obscure joke about broken arrow meant,
but you know,
I'd go on for hours if I were king,
you all woyuld sit down and shut up, and quit calling each other names, and in the name of all that all that could be called good and holy,
quit killing each otgher for a minute,
dang
you guys aren't allowed on my homeplace armed...
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RSL

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #199 on: July 15, 2013, 05:57:04 pm »

no... because what goes around comes around.

Sorry, Vlad, haven't the foggiest idea what that means.
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