Adobe - Creative Cloud Update

[ButchM]

I've got a fridge full of transparency film that is languishing unused because professional colour labs offering quality E6 processing have gone the way of the dodo.  I'm not happy about it but I don't claim it's some plot from a cabal of Kodak, Fuji, and Agfa who set out to screw photographers or force us all to buy new digital gear.  Things evolve, live with it.

While I agree with that "evolution" premise in theory ... Adobe's CC only approach was by their own choice and not in response to a changing market driven evolution paced by consumer desire or demand over which, they had no control ... unlike the change from film to digital ... it was the consumer and end user that drove that evolution in the marketplace ... I don't recall users suggesting and/or nudging Adobe to offer CC in sufficient numbers to make it such a compelling reason to only offer a subscription model ... rather it has been forced upon users ... that is not evolution, it is a sad error in judgement.

[StephaneB]

Microsoft's release of the traditionally licensed version of Office 2013 was only authorized for 1 PC - no more installing to your desktop plus a laptop - and was permanently locked to the first machine you installed it on - retire that machine and upgrade to a new one, there was no uninstalling and moving the Office copy to the new computer, you had to buy a whole new full-price copy of Office for the new one and essentially trashcan the first one!  AND they abandoned reduced pricing for upgrades some time ago - upgrade from Office 2010 to Office 2013 you pay full-bore retail.

Microsoft actually relented on that one. The licensing for Office 2013 is back to normal. It is not linked to one machine any more. You can replace your PC and keep your Office 2013. Anything less was indeed outrageous.

[StephaneB]

Adobe has indeed issued an end of life for Ps perpetual licensing.

For the new releases. Your current license remains perpetual.

Plus, we all know, though we can use our current versions for some time ... that time period is not infinite ... especially at the current pace of OS and hardware advancement.

PhotoShop CS3 works in Windows 8. I guess CS6 will work a very long time.

[john beardsworth]

Microsoft actually relented on that one. The licensing for Office 2013 is back to normal.

Up to 5 machines, and they do both subscription and normal sales. I went for the subscription, and was glad I could evaluate the options and make a choice. They must have good programmers up in Redmond.

[Chris_Brown]

Up to 5 machines, and they do both subscription and normal sales.

This sounds good.

[BernardLanguillier]

PhotoShop CS3 works in Windows 8. I guess CS6 will work a very long time.

True on Windows. I am more concerned on OSX. It seems that CS4 still works on 10.8.4, which is encouraging but who knows what incompatibilities Apple may introduce in 10.9, 10.10,... that may prevent CS6 from running normally. Adobe has already announced that would they would have to patch CS6 to make it work on 10.9, it doesn't convey a clear message in terms of future proofness, does it?

But the key question is whether it makes sense to keep creating more IP using a platform that will not evolve any longer.

My personal answer is to keep using it until an alternative gets at the right level, and to actively encourage their progress by buying licenses today.

Cheers,
Bernard

[BernardLanguillier]

That's just not true (that you have no choice).  You can stick with your present CS6 or earlier until the cows come home.  For new camera support you can use the free DNG converter if nothing else.  You can pay the $10 a month for a subscription and see what happens in the year to come before renewal comes around. Or you can switch trains - the choice is up to you.  If you think Adobe is presenting you with an onerous burden, Microsoft's release of the traditionally licensed version of Office 2013 was only authorized for 1 PC - no more installing to your desktop plus a laptop - and was permanently locked to the first machine you installed it on - retire that machine and upgrade to a new one, there was no uninstalling and moving the Office copy to the new computer, you had to buy a whole new full-price copy of Office for the new one and essentially trashcan the first one!  AND they abandoned reduced pricing for upgrades some time ago - upgrade from Office 2010 to Office 2013 you pay full-bore retail!  Still is that way if you get a PC with Office pre-installed by the manufacturer; the OEM version is not transferable to a new computer.  I have misgivings about the subscription model myself but some of you guys are really going to extremes in your vitriol.

I believe that you may have taken one quote out of context here. I wrote a few posts above that we had the following options:

A. Adobe's top mgt changes their mind and continue to upgrade and sell CS's "boxed version" at the current price point,

B. Those who consider the subcription only model unacceptable fund the development of competitive solutions like pixelmator, pl32, the gimp,... by buying licenses or donating funds today (already done as far as I am concerned for Pixelmator and pl32). It will take a few releases for them to be at the right level, we keep using CS6 box in the meantime,

C. We stop digital photography and devote our time/cash to something else.

By "no choice", I meant that Option B seems the only way forward for those not willing to give away the house keys to Adobe. So my intend is indeed to keep using CS6 as long as I don't find an alternative that brings me the level of functionality/ease of use/stability I need. But I will keep in mind that it doesn't make much sense to keep creating proprietary IP in a platform that has been de facto end of lifed by its vendor.

Cheers,
Bernard

[Steve House]

Up to 5 machines, and they do both subscription and normal sales. I went for the subscription, and was glad I could evaluate the options and makes a choice. They must have good programmers up in Redmond.

5 Machines for Office 365 (Office 2013 subscription); 1 machine for Office 2013 perpetual, but it is transferable now, once every 90 days.

[StephaneB]

True on Windows. I am more concerned on OSX. It seems that CS4 still works on 10.8.4, which is encouraging but who knows what incompatibilities Apple may introduce in 10.9, 10.10,... that may prevent CS6 from running normally. Adobe has already announced that would they would have to patch CS6 to make it work on 10.9, it doesn't convey a clear message in terms of future proofness, does it?

I know. But that is not Adobe's fault. Apple has completely lost sight of the needs of businesses. You are not Apple's target customer any more.

[Rhossydd]

True on Windows. I am more concerned on OSX.

One of the assumptions about using Apple OS's seems to be that you need to keep up with their upgrades and legacy support has never been terribly important to Apple. The not too long ago change that left X-Rite owners having to buy expensive upgrades to i1 Products being a good example.
If you can't afford to keep up, look elsewhere.

Maybe time to re-evaluate your choice of OS then. It seems a little odd to moan like mad about Adobe, but then fall in line with Apple.

In real world usage there's not much difference between OSx and W7 and I've got both here.

[john beardsworth]

5 Machines for Office 365 (Office 2013 subscription); 1 machine for Office 2013 perpetual, but it is transferable now, once every 90 days.

Thanks, Steve, I forgot about the perpetual. If I recall, the annual subscription cost was £80 compared to a single perpetual licence of around £110. To me this deal looked pretty slanted in the direction of subscription, and it made me head in the direction Microsoft wanted me to go. I look at Adobe's Cloud and even with a CS6 upgrade terms, I see a hidden price rise. A 21st century Hobson's choice?

[Morris Taub]

I see a hidden price rise.

Hi John...not hidden at all for me, big price increase after the first year, especially here in France/europe...and we get less options for the price increase.


Something I wrote to Jeff the day before the adobe announcement here, in this thread : http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=77989.0


"Guess it depends what the price point is. Based on prices today, the adobe single app cost is 20 dollars a month or 25 euros a month. Even if it's just every 18 months I still do better paying the upgrade fee like I used to.

Also, now I can upgrade when I want. Say I bought CS6 upgrade when it came out. Today I don't have to upgrade to CS7 until CS8 is ready to ship, if I don't want to lose my right/ability to upgrade. That would be closer to 36 months. Ok, say we narrow it down to 30 months. That's still only around $7 a month, not $20. Today the price point is not in my favor.

Based on the new features I've seen released over the last months for CS6 subscription users I'd say yes, I could wait till CS7 to have them included. They don't mean anything to me or my work.

Also, the $20/25 euro a month price is relevant today. What if Adobe decides to raise the price next year? I mean I wouldn't be surprised. What do I do? If I don't like it I can just stop paying and have nothing in hand to work with. At least until now by buying my 18 month upgrades I could continue to use Photoshop.

Honest, Jeff, I have nothing but respect for the folks that work at Adobe. I'm not trying to take food out of their mouths. I don't expect them to work for free. I love photoshop. I don't want to be put in a position to have to stop using it. But the subscription model just doesn't fit into my financial horizon.

Even if they came down to $10 a month, I'd be skeptical. Why? Forgive me this lapse into my imagination, but I suspect the shareholders would want more profit. Tease 'em with something cheap up front, get 'em addicted, then lower the hammer. Ok, call me paranoid. This is another 'thing' in our world, but I just hate the inflated prices of food and countless other things due to shareholders. Profit being given to people who do nothing but inflate the true prices of goods and services seems wrong to me. Food for another forum.

Sorry, but no. Not tempted in the least by the adobe subscription offers. What they'll offer us tomorrow, well, you know more about it than I."

Add to this the loss of trust and confidence I've felt since last year and Adobe's 'renew every version' not every two or three versions, and the writing is on 'my' wall. I'm kind of feeling like Bernard. Trying a few other raw converters and seeing what's available to replace photoshop. Nothing can replace it today, but that might not be true in a year or two. I've bought pixelmator. I'm gonna download a trial of Photoline, and maybe buy that too. Knowing I won't upgrade photoshop CS6 has freed up 250 euros in my budget. Similar doubts for Lightroom. Dang. Such great software. Made by some very talented people at Adobe. Ruined by greed. Well, ruined for me. It's really a shame. No matter how much some people have today it's never enough.

[john beardsworth]

Hi John...not hidden at all for me, big price increase after the first year, especially here in France/europe...and we get less options for the price increase.

We in England are also in Europe, you know To some extent, the old US-global pricing differences are a separate discussion, and I think it's fair to say that Adobe are not doing that any worse than before (or any worse than most other US companies). But it might be interesting to speculate on the reaction to CC if Adobe had chosen to offer upgraders a cost-neutral subscription rate and gone with worldwide dollar pricing (plus local taxes and language costs).

John

[Morris Taub]

We in England are also in Europe, you know To some extent, the old US-global pricing differences are a separate discussion, and I think it's fair to say that Adobe are not doing that any worse than before (or any worse than most other US companies). But it might be interesting to speculate on the reaction to CC if Adobe had chosen to offer upgraders a cost-neutral subscription rate and gone with worldwide dollar pricing (plus local taxes and language costs).

John

Yes. Agree with you. But they didn't. Is it too late to back track a bit? I wonder. Still. Subscription. Owning nothing but air after all the payments. Not for me. Also. It will be fun to watch Adobe as it becomes a full service entity and not a seller of product. The one time I had trouble with my upgrade serial numbers I spent over an hour on the phone with a woman who was definitely in India. I couldn't understand her accent. She knew nothing about the programs. Had to be handed over to her manager to finally get clear info across both ways. That won't cut it if on a subscription and for whatever reason your programs stop working.

Adobe and software as a Service. I'll be watching this closely.

(I don't blame england for having one foot in on europe. It's an economic mess. We knew that even before the euro.)

[BernardLanguillier]

Maybe time to re-evaluate your choice of OS then. It seems a little odd to moan like mad about Adobe, but then fall in line with Apple.

In real world usage there's not much difference between OSx and W7 and I've got both here.

I have been complaining a lot about Apple's migration policy also, don't worry about that.  I am no apple fan boy, I use Win7 at work and like it.

But Adobe will not accept a migration of OS without a change of release... so I am currently stuck on OSX because of CS6... and also because of some other applications that do not have a Win version (FC Pro X, Raw Developper,...). The cost of moving to Win 7/8 would be very significant.

So yes, Apple contributes to worsening the situation, but this doesn't change anything about the fact that the situation would not have been bad in the first place without the Adobe decision. Let's keep things in the right order here.

Cheers,
Bernard

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

To some extent, the old US-global pricing differences are a separate discussion, and I think it's fair to say that Adobe are not doing that any worse than before (or any worse than most other US companies).

Hi John,

I don't agree, now that they do not sell perpetual license boxed products anymore since CS6. Looking at the current European pricing, it's 1 US$ == 1 Euro +23% VAT. That currency exchange alone is currently a 33% higher price for an electronic download. I didn't realize that European bytes were more expensive than the ones in the USA? Of course the reason for that is NOT that doing business is exactly 33% more expensive in Europe, but that they get income tax benefits from doing ('off-shore') business (formally) from Ireland. That understandably urges them to make more profit here where the taxes are lower, than in the USA. You may be aware that there is quite a bit of discussion going on about tax heaven constructions in Europe.

Question becomes, do we Europeans want to pay more than necessary, just for Adobe's tax/profit reasons? Given the demonstrated level of contempt for me as a long time customer, and for a large segment of the imaging industry, that is not hard to answer. Not if I can avoid it.

But it might be interesting to speculate on the reaction to CC if Adobe had chosen to offer upgraders a cost-neutral subscription rate and gone with worldwide dollar pricing (plus local taxes and language costs).

Speculation is always a nice pass-time, but nothing speaks louder than real actions ...

Cheers,
Bart

[john beardsworth]

Sure, actions do speak louder than words. But the differential pricing, to Europeans' disadvantage, is nothing new and I don't see Adobe as worse than other companies that play tax-saving and job-shifting games. These perpetual practices (pun intended) would continue regardless of the subscription-only sales and I feel they only confuse the discussion. 

[Rhossydd]

But Adobe will not accept a migration of OS without a change of release...

I think you're wrong there. I transferred my CS for Mac to a Windows licence at no cost.

[BernardLanguillier]

I think you're wrong there. I transferred my CS for Mac to a Windows licence at no cost.

Well, Adobe Japan used to not even allow this until I pushed in various ways. The condition was very clear that they would only grant this at the moment of an upgade.

I have not double checked with them, but even if this were OK now the issue with all the other stuff remains.

Cheers,
Bernard

[john beardsworth]

More financial documents have just been released. See http://www.adobe.com/investor-relations.html, especially the results and the earnings call script (for a webcon with Shantanu Narayan).