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Author Topic: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update  (Read 126889 times)

Vladimirovich

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #220 on: June 11, 2013, 12:05:59 am »

with the way the anti-Adobe crowd seems to paint this whole CC/subscription thing
again you are trying to sneak false premises... not "CC" and not "subscription"... but "subscription only"... nobody is against having extra/additonal "CC" or "subscription" features... but a lot is upset with "subscription only" model for certain products intended for photographers as well like PS (yes, it is - you always like to forget ACR).
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #221 on: June 11, 2013, 04:05:00 am »

Morality and religion? Really Bernard? This whole thing has transcended to this for you? I really don't get that at all. I understand people don't like having the tables changed and costs going up. But to equate that to morality issues and religious values? I really start to question the validity of that sort of visceral response. I mean, is that really what you think? That Adobe has done something immoral and anti-religious? I ask because I'm really trying to understand exactly how out of context all this anti-CC has gotten and the context that some people seem to be reacting to. Sorry bud, but that is way, way over the top.

To start, I am not the least bit a religious person myself, but I have a lot of respect for various religious beliefs and the highest level of integrity they demand.

And yes, I clearly think that the way Adobe is letting down tens of thousands of end users with the CC only approach is immoral. It is a violation of an implicit commitment about the continued affordability of a platform that they have striven to make a must use for graphic artists, many of which do not have the stream of income required to comply with the new demands of the CC business model. So this decision is impacting significantly the lives of thousands of people in a negative way, which I find to be of questionable morality.

If I were going to church every week, and believed in the meaning of these things, I would certainly strive to avoid involving myself in such immoral deeds.

What do you find weird about this statement? Had you not considered this business proposal from the angle of morality or ethics? My English may have failed me here, unethical might be more accurate that immoral.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: June 14, 2013, 08:38:21 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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daws

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #222 on: June 12, 2013, 01:41:16 pm »

...by and large, photographers tend to come off as a bunch of bitchy little girls...
...they all squeal like stuck pigs...
...you don't have a friggin' clue...
...if you got any balls, put your money where your mouth is...
...I'm pretty much done with the bitchy little girl camp...

And...

...You might want to get the lay of the land a bit before ya start calling people names.

Yup. I think we all got the lay of the land.
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lhodaniel

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #223 on: June 12, 2013, 11:21:10 pm »

Yup. I think we all got the lay of the land.

+1
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yaredna

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #224 on: June 14, 2013, 03:54:29 pm »

having been involved in a trade oranization on behalf of photographers for over a decade (Advertising Photographers of America–APA and having served as National President) and trying to defend photographer's copyrights and improve business practices for photographers, color me just a bit jaded...by and large, photographers tend to come off as a bunch of bitchy little girls. When somebody does something to upset the apple cart, they all squeal like stuck pigs...but try to talk to them and try to organize them into a political group to try to accomplish some industry changes, forget about it.

So, Dave, let me save you the time and effort making any threats towards me. Please do not ever buy another book or video by me ever again. I don't want to count you and your ilk as being a customer of mine. Ok? (not like I would really give a shit mind you).

Interesting...

The buyers of Jeff's videos and books' are those same "bitchy little girls"... Call me naive, but I have rarely seen a business or venture succeed by calling their customers that way...

Good luck, man. We see where your loyalty lies: you must be making more money directly from Adobe than from those "bitchy little girls" photographers... I hate to consider the alternative (which would rhyme with "cupidity")

What a bunch of professorial arrogant bullies we see here... Michael Reichmann worked hard creating a reputation of independence, but he sure is surrounding himself with a different category of experts.

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yaredna

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #225 on: June 14, 2013, 04:01:53 pm »

Yup. I think we all got the lay of the land.
+1
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yaredna

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #226 on: June 14, 2013, 04:14:25 pm »

So...in summary, if I understand:
. A supplier (today, this Adobe. Tomorrow, this could be Canon) doubled its prices overnight
. They also forced their customers to upgrade every single release, whether they need it or not (if this was canon, imagine having to upgrade for every release, whether you need the features or not). Because they can.
. Some Customers got concerned about four things:
  - doubling of annualized cost
  - forced to upgrade and learn a new tool when they don't need or want to
  - supplier has no incentive to continue to innovate meaningfully to earn their upgrade business
  - no long term access to the creative results of using the tool (PSD...)

. Customers (mostly freelance photographers, graphic artists, video editors and web designers) raised these concerns
. A pack of "experts" start defending the company, its executives, its new business policy, and attacking viciously those who raised the concerns (we saw some here on this site, but many more on webdesign forums, graphic design forums, and other photography forums)

Oh well, masks have fallen... Goodluck getting that genie back in the lamp!
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Rhossydd

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #227 on: June 14, 2013, 04:34:00 pm »

Michael Reichmann worked hard creating a reputation of independence, but he sure is surrounding himself with a different category of experts.
As a new poster here that's a pretty uncalled for insult.

Jeff Schewe's style here can be pretty unpleasant, but he's the only example of that. Most of the regulars put up with that because he's often got good, valuable insights and information that he passes on freely. It would be nicer if he could be more polite, but......

There's generally a very high standard of debate and courtesy here. You just need to see through the product evangelists and make your own mind up.
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gbillett

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #228 on: June 14, 2013, 05:57:46 pm »

Mmmm.    The Forum rules state :   'You agree, through your use of this forum, that you will not post any material which is false, defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, adult material, or otherwise in violation of any International or United States Federal law'.   

Newer posters (like myself ) find his style and language offensive,  irrespective of the undoubtedly useful information he might provide.  His assertions that he has some 'sway' in the Forum and can have posts he may not agree with deleted is sinister and anti-democratic,  implying a behind the scenes censorship of views which do not accord with his views and possibly wider editorial views and ( potentially corporate ) alliances.  His suggestion that new posters wait to see 'which way the land lies' before posting is again anti-democratic and sinister.  Are not views of all posters welcome for debate?   The site has obviously made a corporate decision to expand into Facebook and Twitter - this will provide greater exposure to the site and I would suggest the recent nature of posts ostensibly defending a huge corporate organisation and viciously decrying photographers is a position the now corporate Luminous Landscape may wish to revise. It is no longer a 'club' of friends prepared to put up with each other's idiosyncrasies.

I have bought his first book and pre-ordered his second,  as well as buying his printing video he did with Michael.  I value his knowledge.  I deplore his arrogance and language tho and feel his privileged position in this forum undermines democracy and freedom of expression within it. I feel recent posts reflects negatively on the integrity of the whole site.

Can Michael exercise some leadership here in the interest of the reputation and development of his Forum.  Can Kevin Raber act decisively and reign in an apparently out of control senior members of the site in order to accord with conventional web protocols regarding language and style of opinion making in accordance with its forum rules which will welcome new members from Facebook and Twitter. New people will not stay long with venting from people who should know better. These are important issues worthy of serious consideration.  Without that consideration people will abandon this forum.  Also will its sponsors tolerate its currently objectionable content?  Is it good exposure for them?

I'm just saying,  and awaiting to be blown away with a torrent of hot air.  Or to be dismissed with a ' I dont give a shit what you think or say'.   I wait with interest.
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Geoff Billett
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Schewe

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #229 on: June 14, 2013, 06:21:16 pm »

The buyers of Jeff's videos and books' are those same "bitchy little girls"... Call me naive, but I have rarely seen a business or venture succeed by calling their customers that way...

Reread what I wrote...

"Quite honestly having been involved in a trade oranization on behalf of photographers for over a decade (Advertising Photographers of America–APA and having served as National President) and trying to defend photographer's copyrights and improve business practices for photographers, color me just a bit jaded...by and large, photographers tend to come off as a bunch of bitchy little girls. When somebody does something to upset the apple cart, they all squeal like stuck pigs...but try to talk to them and try to organize them into a political group to try to accomplish some industry changes, forget about it."

I stand by that...I know a lot of photographers both pro and non-pro. By and large, it's the non-pro photographers who do things because of a love of the art which is the root definition of amateur in French. Way too many pro photographers are only shooting for the money and not for the image. Am I wrong? Think about it and tell me I'm wrong. Yes, there are some really great pro shooters who are really good and actually nice people (and many are close friends) but they are outnumbered, sadly, by "the bitchy little girls". Which are you?
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Schewe

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #230 on: June 14, 2013, 06:25:37 pm »

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Schewe

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #231 on: June 14, 2013, 06:42:40 pm »

It would be nicer if he could be more polite, but......

You ever here the story about the scorpion and the frog? The scorpion wants a ride across the river...he tells the frog that if the frog gives him a ride across, he won't sting him...the frog reluctantly agrees and allows the scorpion to get on his back. Half way across, the scorpion stings the frog. The frog says, why did you sting me, now we're both gonna die. The scorpion says, hey, I'm a scorpion, to sting is in my nature...it's what I do.

The funny thing is some people are trying to make this all about me and truth be told, it has ZERO to do with me. It has to do with Adobe's relationship with a segment of the market that they don't really understand and are not really important to them.

Oh, and to be clear, I get zero money from Adobe, Canon nor Epson...I'm an independent beholding to nobody including Mike and LuLa. I say what I say because that's what I think (or know). You are totally welcome to ignore me (as I do to some members here on LuLa). But, the moment somebody tries to exercise control of the forums whose name is not Michael Riechmann, I tend to ignore them. And Rhossydd, this isn't directed to you even though I'm responding to your post.

I will also say that I rarely start a fight...my responses to people are a reflection of their posts...and yes, I tend to take a scorched earth approach and escalate when responding to people with an attitude...you want a nice civil community? Then be sure what YOU post isn't inflammatory.
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jrsforums

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #232 on: June 14, 2013, 08:06:45 pm »

Jeff...get real....


The funny thing is some people are trying to make this all about me and truth be told, it has ZERO to do with me. It has to do with Adobe's relationship with a segment of the market that they don't really understand and are not really important to them.

It's always about you.  You keep telling us.

Quote
I will also say that I rarely start a fight...my responses to people are a reflection of their posts...and yes, I tend to take a scorched earth approach and escalate when responding to people with an attitude...you want a nice civil community? Then be sure what YOU post isn't inflammatory.

Here again....the guilty claiming their innocence.  How about the flaming post you made to the poor guy who innocently asked for guidance on matte paper.  There was no need for your venom.
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John

yaredna

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #233 on: June 14, 2013, 08:49:28 pm »

You ever here the story about the scorpion and the frog? The scorpion wants a ride across the river...he tells the frog that if the frog gives him a ride across, he won't sting him...the frog reluctantly agrees and allows the scorpion to get on his back. Half way across, the scorpion stings the frog. The frog says, why did you sting me, now we're both gonna die. The scorpion says, hey, I'm a scorpion, to sting is in my nature...it's what I do.

There is another idiom widely used in the US: "you can't teach an old dog a new trick"... I don't think that's the case of Jeff, but he sure enjoys acting like a stubborn maverick!

Guess what: in this day and age, some of us don't value these traits. These acts annoy us, and we simply surf to another place, or join another social network. This is not the '70s anymore.
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gbillett

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #234 on: June 14, 2013, 09:35:39 pm »

'But, the moment somebody tries to exercise control of the forums whose name is not Michael Riechmann, I tend to ignore them. And Rhossydd, this isn't directed to you even though I'm responding to your post.'

I assume you mean me.  You miss the point;  I'm not trying to control the Forum,  I'm asking the responsible managers of the forum to exercise control over YOU.  You ignore all the conventions of social networkings and justify doing so with an inane story of a scorpion and frog.  If you cannot boundary yourself, and ignore and belittle attempts from others to raise their unhappiness of you with you,   others will have to exert those boundaries :(

You have so much to offer, but a different style would be sooooo much appreciated. :-)


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Geoff Billett
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ButchM

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #235 on: June 14, 2013, 10:32:27 pm »


Oh, and to be clear, I get zero money from Adobe, Canon nor Epson...I'm an independent beholding to nobody including Mike and LuLa. I say what I say because that's what I think (or know). You are totally welcome to ignore me (as I do to some members here on LuLa). But, the moment somebody tries to exercise control of the forums whose name is not Michael Riechmann, I tend to ignore them. And Rhossydd, this isn't directed to you even though I'm responding to your post.

Yeah ... that all sounds good in theory ... but you have to admit ... though you may not profit directly from Adobe, Canon or Epson ... there are far more participants here in this forum that HAVE contributed to your wallet (myself included) than you have to their bottom line. And likely the companies previously mentioned were involved in the process ... even if indirectly. For if we didn't use their products ... what you offer us would have been of little use ...

My goodness ... if I had a nickel for every time I saw you post "I don't care what you think" on this and several other forums over the years (don't let my current post count fool you ... I've read your posts for quite some time) ... I could buy a lifelong subscription to CC and have change left over ... It baffles me how you could care less about what others think of your comments ... yet you place so much importance on shouting down, if not silencing the opinions of others ... One Way Street is it?

I have the utmost respect for your knowledge experience, expertise and opinion ... I have zero respect for your deployment of same ... you spend far too much time in name dropping, highlighting your connections and ties with the Powers That May Be ... and far less in polite discourse ... You are NOT the self-appointed guardian that you think you may be ... if you are ... many of us may have missed the invitations to the coronation where you were appointed the savior of the LuLa forum (or any other discussion) ...

It is one thing to disagree in principle and yet another to be antagonistic, threatening and demeaning in your response. If you wish to change the tenor of a discussion, raising the stakes or the temperature of the discussion with threats is a sure fire method for failure in achieving your goal. You can't win by shear brute force, but rather engaging dialog would go much further. This isn't life and death, it isn't battlefield circumstances ... it is merely a discussion forum ...

I'm not saying you don't have the right to disagree ... that in of itself does not authorize you to play the role of a bully by threatening other forum members with deletion of their comments or expulsion from the forum ... or reminding them you have deep connections with the forum owner and moderators ... or question their understanding of the "lay of the land" ... regardless of whose phone numbers and email addresses you may have access to ...

So ... go ahead and have my posts deleted, and have me banned from the forum ... though that will never ensure that YOUR opinion will prevail ... only that you won't have to read when I disagree with it ... if that is your intended victory ... so be it.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2013, 10:46:08 pm by ButchM »
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Schewe

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #236 on: June 15, 2013, 12:28:10 am »

My goodness ... if I had a nickel for every time I saw you post "I don't care what you think" on this and several other forums over the years (don't let my current post count fool you ... I've read your posts for quite some time) ... I could buy a lifelong subscription to CC and have change left over ... It baffles me how you could care less about what others think of your comments ... yet you place so much importance on shouting down, if not silencing the opinions of others ... One Way Street is it?

Well, tell me where to send the nickel because, once again, I'll tell you that, no, I really don't care what you or others think. I gave up caring what others think about me several decades ago when I got into advertising photography. I don't do things to satisfy others, I do things to satisfy myself. If I cared what other people think, I really would not be who I am and I care far more about who I am and what I do than the thoughts of others. Caring about what others think is a sure way of killing creativity...

You say you know my posting style well, yes, I know yours as well. Although relatively new here, you've posted on the Adobe forums for years. Sometime we agree, often times we don't. What's the problem? You have your opinions, I have mine. Yes, I write very aggressively...some may say abusively but I don't actually engage in ad hominem attacks...I'm perfectly happy attacking peoples' ideas. You don't like my debating style, tough...

Could I be more "polite", sure...do I have any desire to be more "polite"? Nope...I really don't have the time nor interest in being polite. You are welcome to not read nor respond to my posts...and I promise if you don't respond to a post by me, I won't respond to a post by you. Deal? (fair warning, I tend not to let others have the last word :~)

This whole thread is a thinly veiled attack on Adobe and the creative cloud. Heaven forbid that somebody doesn't agree with all the Adobe bashing that goes on.

You want to bring about change at Adobe? Vote with your wallets...that's the only thing that Adobe will respond to. Pissing&Moaning™ on the LuLa forums will do absolutely zero to bring about change...

Photoshop was not designed for nor really intended for photographers...the fact that photographers adopted and became addicted to using Photoshop is not Adobe's fault. Adobe is changing the ground rules...you either adapt and adopt or move on. Will this move by Adobe spur competition? You bet and I'm a firm believer in competition...in point of fact, the recent move to subscription may end up being a really great thing for the industry because it WILL spur competition which has been sorely lacking for well over a decade.

I hope some bright young people are hard at work creating a Photoshop killer...I'll just warn them that's it's a cutthroat field and you'll be going against Adobe's best and brightest. But if somebody thinks they can create an imaging app to rival Photoshop for photographers, more power to them–and I hope you bring your 'A' game cause competing against Photoshop won't be easy.
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Jack Hogan

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #237 on: June 15, 2013, 04:43:02 am »

Hmm, suddenly the thread is less about Adobe's Creative financing and more about ... Schewe

Jeff is a character: arrogant, holier than thou, emotional, prone to hyperbole, tends to drop names, write aggressively and often make things personal (lot's of you's, I's and 'bud's in his text).  That makes him less than 'simpatico' to most and sometimes gets him burned. 
He does however represent an interesting historical memory of the industry and - more importantly imo - he is one of the few (the only?) published authors who does not cower behind a fake name when he participates in fora and debates like this, laying it all bare for everyone to see: that takes cojones, and I respect him for it, thorny red-neck package and all.

Jack
« Last Edit: June 15, 2013, 04:45:44 am by Jack Hogan »
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #238 on: June 15, 2013, 05:06:39 am »

I'm likely to get excoriated for saying this, but this thread started with a legitimate set of concerns about Adobe's new marketing arrangements and has degenerated into a useless and irrelevant discussion about Jeff Schewe's personality. I think it's time for some here to take a pill and get back to real business. Everything that can be said has been said about the CC issue many pages ago and in other threads, so I am bowing out of this thread now, and won't be seeing any replies - just in case any one wanted to. Life's too short.
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gbillett

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #239 on: June 15, 2013, 05:43:57 am »

I can take all that Jack.  Its his threats to have people banned,  implying he can have threads discontinued, his references to the influence he has within the forum,  advising people to become aware of the 'lay of the land' before posting opinions and then asserting he is just an ordinary forum member here.  It is not an equal playing field and if anyone else wrote in his style implying power and influence their posts would be moderated.  It comes across as nothing short of corruption and brings disrespect to Michael Reichmann and the site in general.  I repeat,  if the site is wanting to bring in new members with its affiliations with Facebook,  Twitter etc it will need to follow the wider conventions of social networking discourse.  Jeff's worst postings are anti-democratic and hegemonistic and cast doubt on the integrity of Lula.  People drifting in from Facebook etc will see this and drift out again.  This,  I argue,  undermines LuLa's current corporate drive must be based upon a business plan based upon the successful linking with social networking sites and sponsorship deals;  Jeff's flaming can undermine all that and realistically threaten that plan.  It must be a headache for the site's managers.

I have pre-ordered his book and will continue to purchase it cos I find his knowledge base stimulating. 
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