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Author Topic: Lightroom 5 beta (news MIA)  (Read 55665 times)

Schewe

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Re: Lightroom 5 beta (news MIA)
« Reply #180 on: April 18, 2013, 01:12:29 am »

Media, is much more difficult.  If you cannot read in the bits, you cannot reverse engineer any format. It is not only floppies.  Many optical drives were touted with long life...however, if the drive died and a replacement could not be found, well..  Many people found that certain early CD and DVD drives had characteristics that caused them to have difficulty being read by newer, supposedly compatible drives.  Then, there is the story of the long life CD/DVDs would have...oh well.

So the story is much bigger then the narrow minded rant of the Adobe fanboys pushing DNG as the savior of the world.

Actually, there are already standards for media migration...that's less of an issue than formats. You need to move files forward and avoid bit rot. It's the formats that are a bigger problem. Sure you can copy a file to new media, but unless you can open the file, it's useless.

And, yet again, you still don't get it...DNG is not "the savior of the world", I never said it was...I said it was a useful format that could work well as a raw file format standard and Adobe has given the format to the ISO to use (if they decide to). The main thrust of MY arguments is that the current situation of  a proliferation of undocumented, proprietary raw file formats sucks...and its the direct responsibility of the camera makers to fix it.
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mac_paolo

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Re: Lightroom 5 beta (news MIA)
« Reply #181 on: April 18, 2013, 01:19:21 am »

any backup software will catch the modification date change and backup the entire DNG.
Most, not "any". Arq, for example, should save only the delta. At least that's what the developer told me.
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jrsforums

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Re: Lightroom 5 beta (news MIA)
« Reply #182 on: April 18, 2013, 01:31:56 am »

Yeah, some good hearted engineer has spent the time to reverse engineer Photo CD...thanks Hadmut...but did you actually follow the links to see what apps can actually use Hadmut's work? Well, let me warn you that trying to use what Hadmut wrote pretty much requires command line control of Max, Windows or Linux. One of them is ImageMagick...so, say you have a Photo CD...go to the web site and see if YOU can figure out how to open your images...good luck with that bud.

But, again, you've missed the point entirely...Photo CD files were undocumented and proprietary file formats that required the dedication of a geeky guy (that prolly had a bunch of friends with Photo CDs they couldn't open) to bootstrap the reverse engineering efforts to make the conversion open source.

Do you really want to rely upon the kindness of others to access your original raw files? You good with that?

I'm not.

No, not anymore than I want to rely on Adobe supporting the ACR/LR raw conversions and/or DNG.

I am betting that the "kindness" of others will support some conversion of the millions of users of CR2.

When I print something, I have a TIFF of the finish image....just in case I cannot reproduce it.  Images I load to my photo site are in relatively large JPEG.  They can be download if needed, but they are also on backup HDs.

My image files (RAW, TIFF, JPEG, XMP) are all copies at least 3 times, one of these being RAID 5, with at least one off site (2 for RAWs).  

I never trusted CD/DVDs, particularly the 200 year life.  

My old "keeper" prints and negatives have been scanned, but not locked into a gimmick product like the Photo CD was.  I never used it...luckily I had other means of storage available to me at the time, which has since been converted to HDs.

If media changes, I will upgrade to the new media, before the old dies.

While I love Adobe products, I am not locked into them...and am paranoid of apparent monopolies...so try best to be prepared for the event if they forget what there market is as Kodak did.
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Glenn NK

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Re: Lightroom 5 beta (news MIA)
« Reply #183 on: April 18, 2013, 01:34:01 am »

You need to move files forward and avoid bit rot. It's the formats that are a bigger problem. Sure you can copy a file to new media, but unless you can open the file, it's useless.

It would seem that it's easier to restore a 600 year old painting, than a corrupted data file on a media storage device that can't be read.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not going back to film - 44 years was enough.  But even my colour slides taken in 1962 can be looked at and will be viewable in another fifty years.  In twenty years from now, my school age grand daughters won't likely be able to see the images I made of them five years ago.

In truth there is far more (practical) permanence in prints than in digital images - magnetism is very transitory.  So are laser written files.

Glenn
« Last Edit: April 18, 2013, 01:36:36 am by Glenn NK »
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jrsforums

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Re: Lightroom 5 beta (news MIA)
« Reply #184 on: April 18, 2013, 01:43:13 am »

Actually, there are already standards for media migration...that's less of an issue than formats. You need to move files forward and avoid bit rot. It's the formats that are a bigger problem. Sure you can copy a file to new media, but unless you can open the file, it's useless.

And, yet again, you still don't get it...DNG is not "the savior of the world", I never said it was...I said it was a useful format that could work well as a raw file format standard and Adobe has given the format to the ISO to use (if they decide to). The main thrust of MY arguments is that the current situation of  a proliferation of undocumented, proprietary raw file formats sucks...and its the direct responsibility of the camera makers to fix it.

...but, with DNG, all you are currently selling is a concept, not a product.  It is continuing to evolve and change and has not been accepted by any standard organization.  

Currently, as I understand it, without saving the original RAW, either separate or embedded, you cannot be sure of your future and are at the mercy of Adobe and their continued existence.

I know you are trying to burn the candle at both ends to get where you want to get....but I am not willing to go down that rathole until it is fleshed out better.  Undocumented CR2 work just fine for now...and, in my opinion, will work fine just as long as DNG will.  If DNG becomes a standard, and is accepted by the Lib of Congress, etc. it may be require for their archival purposes....so they are free to convert and store in that format, I don't have to.  If the world changes and the camera manufacturers provide DNG and the mass of RAW converters support it, I will be glad to go there...then.
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John

jrsforums

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Re: Lightroom 5 beta (news MIA)
« Reply #185 on: April 18, 2013, 01:47:14 am »

Most, not "any". Arq, for example, should save only the delta. At least that's what the developer told me.

Interesting....how is it going to do that.  Write only the changes to the DNG file?  Save just the changes and reassemble if you need the backup version.  Be curious to find out.  Can we trust them to get it right?
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John

Schewe

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Re: Lightroom 5 beta (news MIA)
« Reply #186 on: April 18, 2013, 02:01:54 am »

Currently, as I understand it, without saving the original RAW, either separate or embedded, you cannot be sure of your future and are at the mercy of Adobe and their continued existence.

Uh, no...DNG is fully documented. The only thing one might be dependent on Adobe for is continuing adding new DNG versions. But at DNG 1.4, everything you need to know about a DNG is full documented (and freely usable with no fees) in the DNG SDK. Any camera maker could adopt DNG for free and enjoy immediate support for new cameras in DNG compliant software.

And I guess you don;t understand the implication of the Adoption factor...the greater the adoption the greater the likely hood a file format will continue to be accessible. At this point we are at over 300 raw file formats and counting...without any standards, where will be be in 5 years, 10 years? 500 different file formats, more? How long do you think we can depend on the kindness of others? Because, without some changes in the industry, I'm not willing to rely on the kindness of the likes of Canon and Nikon. At one point Canon released a version of DPP that dropped early cameras...they had a lot of users complain and low and behold, Canon blinked and re-added the early Canon formats back in on the next rev of the software. You really want to trust Canon over Adobe? I don't...I've met people at both companies...I trust Adobe far more than Canon.
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hjulenissen

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Re: Lightroom 5 beta (news MIA)
« Reply #187 on: April 18, 2013, 03:32:51 am »

Yes, Glenn...the issues are both format and media.  

The Library of Congress group is only focused on format.  As has been discussed above, format can be resolved, though it is not always pretty.

Media, is much more difficult.  If you cannot read in the bits, you cannot reverse engineer any format. It is not only floppies.  Many optical drives were touted with long life...however, if the drive died and a replacement could not be found, well..  Many people found that certain early CD and DVD drives had characteristics that caused them to have difficulty being read by newer, supposedly compatible drives.  Then, there is the story of the long life CD/DVDs would have...oh well.
Where I live there have been news stories about historians wanting to recreate budgets etc from municipalities. They were clever enough to keep the magnetic tapes, tape readers and compatible computers. The problem was finding and installing the (proprietary) software, getting it to actually run, and transferring the data to some physical/logical format that is accessible by todays computers.

Turns out it was a lot faster and cheaper to hire some people to manually scan the paper documents from the 60s than transferring the digital data from the 70s.
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So the story is much bigger then the narrow minded rant of the Adobe fanboys pushing DNG as the savior of the world.
No part of my arguments warrant calling me an "Adobe fanboy". If anything, I am sceptical about the amount of labour I am putting into a proprietary Adobe application (Lightroom), and the outcome if I was hit by a car today, and my children chose to look into my hard-drives 15 years from now. If either the NAS or the external backup are readable, they would find 1TB of *.cr2-files (neatly organized into folders) and a 500MB lightroom catalog file. What would they make of it? I wish for a Lightroom single-click function that will render all images as JPEG/TIFF/BMP in a catalog into the same folder as each source image. Then any interested relative/researcher will have both the "digital negative" and my "developed image" in a (hopefully) understandable folder structure.

Given the choice between an openly documented format, and fully closed formats, I tend to prefer the former. I ripped my CDs in flac. I drag and drop music into my phone without the iTunes/DRM nonsense.

-h
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Tony Jay

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Re: Lightroom 5 beta (news MIA)
« Reply #188 on: April 18, 2013, 05:11:28 am »

jrsforums: still howling at the moon - wait a minute - there is no moon.

Frankly you are still parading your ignorance.

Go read the FACTS about DNG for Pete's sake and stop prattling nonsense!

Tony Jay
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Jim Pascoe

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Re: Lightroom 5 beta (news MIA)
« Reply #189 on: April 18, 2013, 05:25:36 am »

From where I stand as your average non-technical photographer, prints are the way to go for an image to have permanence (in the short to medium term).  Following that, a TIFF or JPEG file, well backed-up to enable further distribution or to re-create a print.

For RAW files I think it is a crazy situation with such a multitude of formats.  Whether it's DNG or some other yet to be designed format, all companies should agree to adopt a common standard.  The RAW file could be likened to a negative, in which case as has been pointed out there are many instance where having the original would be a necessity - such as legal, medical, journalism etc.  And though we do not know yet who the future famous photographers will be, how interesting to be able to look at their RAW images as a matter of historical record.  To argue for a common format is sane.  It's not a question of whether it will be possible to reverse engineer proprietary RAW files in the future, but why on earth should the relevant companies be storing up the problems to make it necessary.

As far as I can see, though Schewe may be an Adobe Fanboy :) his point is about all companies adopting a common standard, and I'm sure he wouldn't give a monkeys who developed the format, as long as it worked and was universally adopted.  But I'm sure he will soon let me know if that's not the case.

Personally the fact is that although I hope some of my prints will outlast me - I doubt if many of my digital files will, in whatever format.  But it's not about my RAW files, or yours maybe, but those that may have historical significance.

Jim
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hjulenissen

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Re: Lightroom 5 beta (news MIA)
« Reply #190 on: April 18, 2013, 06:07:32 am »

How can we _know_ that current e.g. Epson prints will last for 100 years even though some 100 year old prints did? They cannot possible be chemically and structurally that similar? I am sure that expert have nice physical models and accelerate aging by heat, moisture etc, but how certain can they be?

For each 100 year old photography that have been found, how many have disappeared? I.e. what is the expected probability of surviving for 100 years, based on history?

How likely is it that your or my photography is going to have value for anyone younger than our grand-children? How many kittens and children playing and red sunsets does humanity need? If all photography is preserved for all eternity, this would in itself make any single image of less value. Part of the value of 100 year old images is that they are so few, so even mediocre images can give a unique glimpse into scenes that cannot be seen today.

If all raw shooters converted all of their raw files to DNG today and deleted the originals, would the problem be solved?

-h
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Ben Rubinstein

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Re: Lightroom 5 beta (news MIA)
« Reply #191 on: April 18, 2013, 06:13:58 am »

From a repro point of view and this is the view of museums/libraries,  16 bit TIFF's with a Datacolor chart shot included and a .txt file with the RGB readouts of that chart (though most don't bother with that last one) = far more archival than even a standardised raw which will require Adobe to still exist to be read correctly and with all the information intact. Just gets bleeding expensive on the storage end of stuff. Unless the processing or final look is standardised and can be baked into the DNG so it can be read by any program, the archival properties of DNG as a raw format rest pretty much only on Adobe continuing to exist. I just can't see that as an archival proposition myself. 30 years from now there may be a program that can open a DNG but to have the similar quality files of today with the quality coming from software tuned and profiled for specific cameras. it just isn't going to exist. You can't divorce the format from the software when talking about archiveability. It's funny actually, having the ability to read old raws gives us far more latitude in processing with older cameras than used to exist in the past. However in the future I think that once the cameras and even companies are long forgotten, raw, for all it's extra latitude, etc will be a problem not the solution it is today.

Honestly, I run a repro studio and have to worry about archivability every day. We are shooting collections of thousands of ancient manuscripts and documents, most of which will have deteriorated beyond the ability to digitalise in the coming decades. I'm using dual off site LTO for long term storage even though I realise it will need to be transferred over in a few decades to a new technology, it is still the most reliable, best and cheapest option for mid term storage. I have not been given a budget to store 16bit TIFF's of our MFDB files though I wish I could. If DNG was the solution then I would convert over all our data without a second thought. I just don't think that unless something drastic changes, that it is the answer or that any advantage gained can be divorced from a reliance on Adobe still existing. Yes I realise that our compressed Leaf .MOS files require Phase One to still exist however at this point and as I wait for a better solution, it does not seem any worse a problem. I could uncompress the files and then Adobe could see them but just as if they were DNG's, Adobe's software is not sufficient to process the files anyway, not as well as P1 for repro work. Until the format includes open processing data the format itself is just part of the problem. Feel free to change my mind though. I do need a solution other than quadrupling our storage budget which I cannot do.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2013, 06:19:00 am by Ben Rubinstein »
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Lightroom 5 beta (news MIA)
« Reply #192 on: April 18, 2013, 06:26:40 am »

Well, let me warn you that trying to use what Hadmut wrote pretty much requires command line control of Max, Windows or Linux. One of them is ImageMagick...so, say you have a Photo CD...go to the web site and see if YOU can figure out how to open your images...good luck with that bud.

Hi Jeff, and those who really want to know,

convert -depth 16 -colorspace RGB image.pcd[5] -gamma 2.2 image.tif

should do it if one e.g. wants a 16-b/ch version (-depth 16) and TIFF output. It gives the 3072×2048 pixels resolution version ([5] is the 6th level of resolution, indexed from 0 to 5) of the image.pcd, and the output gamma used can be changed depending on the image (even left as a linear gamma). ImageMagick can also use different colorspaces than basically (s)RGB, and profile assignments/conversions from source to destination profile are also possible. As always, it can all be done if really needed.

But all that is a bit of a diversion tactics, and it only shows that there is still time to recode the image data if needed. Afterall, PCD is also a digitized version of a filmscan. The film is the Raw image. When Adobe goes belly-up, all DNG encoded files may become more difficult to re-use over time as well. So what's really needed is a universally adopted truly open standard. An ISO recommendation would be useful, but there are lots of (inefficient but transparent) ways to recode the Raw data if that's the concern.

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But, again, you've missed the point entirely...Photo CD files were undocumented and proprietary file formats that required the dedication of a geeky guy (that prolly had a bunch of friends with Photo CDs they couldn't open) to bootstrap the reverse engineering efforts to make the conversion open source.

Of course PCD is documented, but not openly published. It's too bad that you feel the need to use such arguments, because you basically do have a point about preserving the digital legacy. Yet, we also see old audio recordings on studio tape being revived to arguably better remastered versions and mixes. It does tell us that we need to recode as technology progresses, and preferably before the irreversible signal losses set in.

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Do you really want to rely upon the kindness of others to access your original raw files? You good with that?

I'm not.

When it's useful to do, it will be done. The question then becomes, is it worth the effort?

I do agree that managing the growing number of proprietary (Raw) formats can become a concern, but DNG is not the only possible solution, as it still requires an interpretation of the stored Raw data to get something meaningful to look at (just like the Rosetta stone inscriptions, interpretation is always required).

Cheers,
Bart
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hjulenissen

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Re: Lightroom 5 beta (news MIA)
« Reply #193 on: April 18, 2013, 06:37:09 am »

From a repro point of view and this is the view of museums/libraries,  16 bit TIFF's with a Datacolor chart shot included and a .txt file with the RGB readouts of that chart (though most don't bother with that last one) = far more archival than even a standardised raw which will require Adobe to still exist to be read correctly and with all the information intact.
Why do you need Adobe to read dng files?
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Just gets bleeding expensive on the storage end of stuff. Unless the processing or final look is standardised and can be baked into the DNG so it can be read by any program, the archival properties of DNG as a raw format rest pretty much only on Adobe continuing to exist.
I assume that the dng format contains sufficient flexibility to describe the capture process (i.e. color profiles). Once you can refer the raw data to some physical scene, there should be enough information to present this information "neutrally". If you want to preserve non-neutral edits (i.e. giving the sky a non-natural shade of blue), cannot this be stored as a processed (developed) file beside the raw file?
Quote
It's funny actually, having the ability to read old raws gives us far more latitude in processing with older cameras than used to exist in the past. However in the future I think that once the cameras and even companies are long forgotten, raw, for all it's extra latitude, etc will be a problem not the solution it is today.
We don't know. On the medium term, there might be tools that allows better demosaic and denoise etc than we can imagine today.
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Honestly, I run a repro studio and have to worry about archivability every day. We are shooting collections of thousands of ancient manuscripts and documents, most of which will have deteriorated beyond the ability to digitalise in the coming decades.
Is this not a question for your customers (and their willingness to pay)? If some document is unique and valuable, surely storage space is not that much of an issue?

Someone like a very large conserving institution/museum/CSI might have the resources to make their own, openly documented file format and processing pipeline. While computer formats change, math is unlikely to change that much in 100 years. As a big fan of MATLAB, I think that a floating-point, matrix-oriented language should be flexible enough, and close enough to mathematics to be implemented as a simple series of math in some future decoder. MATLAB in itself is proprietary, but there are open-source equivalents (Octave), or one might design a new language focused on compact, human-friendly math instead of efficient execution.

-h
« Last Edit: April 18, 2013, 06:38:59 am by hjulenissen »
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PhotoEcosse

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Re: Lightroom 5 beta (news MIA)
« Reply #194 on: April 18, 2013, 06:42:10 am »

At last. The thread seems to have regained an element of rational discussion rather than the rancour and insults that were flying about.

Maybe I am now brave enough to offer my tuppenceworth.

I think that there is a certain arrogance about assuming that many of our photographs will hold any interest or value after we have passed on. Those that do will presumably have been incorporated into some other collection or archive, rather than just languishing in our personal shoebox of photos (real or digital). A book, a learned journal, an exhibition catalogue, a library or museum, a local history society.....or whatever.

Basically, I want to keep my images for varying lengths of time, depending upon what future personal use I might envisage for them. Anything I might think will be potentially useful for some future publication, competition, exhibition or salon, I am currently quite happy to retain as .NEF files on backed-up storage media, catalogued and accessible through Lightroom (or its successors). Most of the images I have already processed for any particular use will also be stored as either Tiffs or Jpegs exported from Lightroom and again stored on backed-up discs.

The best of them, of course, get printed and are kept as prints (although I confess to not indexing my prints very well).

Any photographs (whether prints or digital) that I think may interest other individuals (family, friends, society members, publishers, etc.) are sent to them at the appropriate time and they can (or not) store them as they think appropriate.

But, after I shuffle off this mortal coil, I certainly don't expect any of my surviving relatives to have any interest in trawling through half a million digital files to see if anything is of abiding interest. Inheriting a few hundred prints will be quite enough for them. And, if a few survive in more durable published or archived form in places outside my own control, then let the curators and publishers worry about the storage format and medium.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2013, 06:44:30 am by PhotoEcosse »
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Ben Rubinstein

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Re: Lightroom 5 beta (news MIA)
« Reply #195 on: April 18, 2013, 07:11:40 am »

Why do you need Adobe to read dng files?I assume that the dng format contains sufficient flexibility to describe the capture process (i.e. color profiles). Once you can refer the raw data to some physical scene, there should be enough information to present this information "neutrally". If you want to preserve non-neutral edits (i.e. giving the sky a non-natural shade of blue), cannot this be stored as a processed (developed) file beside the raw file? We don't know. On the medium term, there might be tools that allows better demosaic and denoise etc than we can imagine today.Is this not a question for your customers (and their willingness to pay)? If some document is unique and valuable, surely storage space is not that much of an issue?

Someone like a very large conserving institution/museum/CSI might have the resources to make their own, openly documented file format and processing pipeline. While computer formats change, math is unlikely to change that much in 100 years. As a big fan of MATLAB, I think that a floating-point, matrix-oriented language should be flexible enough, and close enough to mathematics to be implemented as a simple series of math in some future decoder. MATLAB in itself is proprietary, but there are open-source equivalents (Octave), or one might design a new language focused on compact, human-friendly math instead of efficient execution.

-h

You will need Adobe to read your DNG's as processed in Adobe. Or whatever software. It isn't just the blue sky, even if you have an imbedded color profile, it's the sharpening, the noise reduction, the tonality, all the stuff that is the rendition of the file. If you don't have a camera profile, an open camera profile, together with an open way to show changes applied using that profile, the DNG is going to be most useless in 30 years is it not? Unless the companies that wrote the changes into the DNG still exist and are supporting it which I'm worried to rely on. Witness for example even the first versions of camera profiling for problem cameras such as the 7D, the Fuji's, etc and that is where there is a profile, not without one. That is why the file format is only half the story and why I am wary of it being pushed as an archival solution when it evidentially is not. Or is it? Is all that stuff all in the DNG specifications?

Theory does rather hit facts when it comes to funding from museums I'm afraid. They don't make money and as such money is always tight. It's ok when you have government funding but when it's privately funded and especially in this day and age...
« Last Edit: April 18, 2013, 07:26:59 am by Ben Rubinstein »
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hjulenissen

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Re: Lightroom 5 beta (news MIA)
« Reply #196 on: April 18, 2013, 07:34:34 am »

You will need Adobe to read your DNG's as processed in Adobe. Or whatever software. It isn't just the blue sky, even if you have an imbedded color profile, it's the sharpening, the noise reduction, the tonality, all the stuff that is the rendition of the file. If you don't have a camera profile, an open camera profile, together with an open way to show changes applied using that profile, the DNG is going to be most useless in 30 years is it not? Unless the companies that wrote the changes into the DNG still exist and are supporting it which I'm worried to rely on. Witness for example even the first versions of camera profiling for problem cameras such as the 7D, the Fuji's, etc and that is where there is a profile, not without one. That is why the file format is only half the story and why I am wary of it being pushed as an archival solution when it evidentially is not. Or is it? Is all that stuff all in the DNG specifications?

Theory does rather hit facts when it comes to funding from museums I'm afraid. They don't make money and as such money is always tight. It's ok when you have government funding but when it's privately funded and especially in this day and age...
Why does it have to be rendered like it would have been in Adobe products? Lense profiles could (I guess) be embedded in dng profiles. Camera sensor noise/saturation performance as well. This would make for a fair model of how the sensor data were related to the original scene. Is that not the core of archiving e.g. old script scrolls or paintings? "Preserve as much information about the thing before it deteriorates"? This could include much more information that that needed for a single rendering (e.g. multispectral/hyperspectral data).

If you want to archive the artistic intent of the guy pushing sliders in Photoshop (or the algorithm designer deciding how the Lightroom NR should work), why not just save a JPEG, TIFF, BMP or whatever is deemed robust and efficient?

Not trying to be difficult here, but I really see recording scene information and recording rendering choices as two different things. If you save a robust representation of the sensor data (along with sufficient data to interpret it) _and_ a robust rendering of that data, you would seem to have preserved most of what is needed for posterity? My own Lightroom activities are slightly different as I want to have the opportunity to build on top of previous edits (or remove them one by one). Thus precise knowledge of the parametric editing is relevant to me. Might be even more important for CSI-type applications ("what?? did that knife in his hand only appear after applying a copy and paste operation??").

-h
« Last Edit: April 18, 2013, 07:40:39 am by hjulenissen »
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jrsforums

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Re: Lightroom 5 beta (news MIA)
« Reply #197 on: April 18, 2013, 07:59:29 am »

Uh, no...DNG is fully documented. The only thing one might be dependent on Adobe for is continuing adding new DNG versions. But at DNG 1.4, everything you need to know about a DNG is full documented (and freely usable with no fees) in the DNG SDK. Any camera maker could adopt DNG for free and enjoy immediate support for new cameras in DNG compliant software.

And I guess you don;t understand the implication of the Adoption factor...the greater the adoption the greater the likely hood a file format will continue to be accessible. At this point we are at over 300 raw file formats and counting...without any standards, where will be be in 5 years, 10 years? 500 different file formats, more? How long do you think we can depend on the kindness of others? Because, without some changes in the industry, I'm not willing to rely on the kindness of the likes of Canon and Nikon. At one point Canon released a version of DPP that dropped early cameras...they had a lot of users complain and low and behold, Canon blinked and re-added the early Canon formats back in on the next rev of the software. You really want to trust Canon over Adobe? I don't...I've met people at both companies...I trust Adobe far more than Canon.

I do understand the Adoption factor.  CR2 is in significantly greater use than DNG.  

In the 300, are these distinct file formats, or, as Eric said, just displacements of the same information in an existing "format".  That is, how many instances of CR2 are in that 300?

So you trust Adobe...that's good, you should you have worked closely with them for years.  Frankly, none of us can afford to trust either.  Good intentions of a corporation are easily overridden by events beyond their control....and in the many corporations that have had intimate relationships with, the ultimate control is in the hands of the "green eye shades"...the financial people.  All decisions ultimately fall to $$s.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2013, 08:49:14 am by jrsforums »
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John

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Re: Lightroom 5 beta (news MIA)
« Reply #198 on: April 18, 2013, 08:14:02 am »

At last. The thread seems to have regained an element of rational discussion rather than the rancour and insults that were flying about.

Maybe I am now brave enough to offer my tuppenceworth.

I think that there is a certain arrogance about assuming that many of our photographs will hold any interest or value after we have passed on. Those that do will presumably have been incorporated into some other collection or archive, rather than just languishing in our personal shoebox of photos (real or digital). A book, a learned journal, an exhibition catalogue, a library or museum, a local history society.....or whatever.

Basically, I want to keep my images for varying lengths of time, depending upon what future personal use I might envisage for them. Anything I might think will be potentially useful for some future publication, competition, exhibition or salon, I am currently quite happy to retain as .NEF files on backed-up storage media, catalogued and accessible through Lightroom (or its successors). Most of the images I have already processed for any particular use will also be stored as either Tiffs or Jpegs exported from Lightroom and again stored on backed-up discs.

The best of them, of course, get printed and are kept as prints (although I confess to not indexing my prints very well).

Any photographs (whether prints or digital) that I think may interest other individuals (family, friends, society members, publishers, etc.) are sent to them at the appropriate time and they can (or not) store them as they think appropriate.

But, after I shuffle off this mortal coil, I certainly don't expect any of my surviving relatives to have any interest in trawling through half a million digital files to see if anything is of abiding interest. Inheriting a few hundred prints will be quite enough for them. And, if a few survive in more durable published or archived form in places outside my own control, then let the curators and publishers worry about the storage format and medium.

The most sensible post that I have read in this thread. :) Too much BS and personality clashes. ::)

john beardsworth

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Re: Lightroom 5 beta (news MIA)
« Reply #199 on: April 18, 2013, 08:30:00 am »

You will need Adobe to read your DNG's as processed in Adobe.
No, you are forgetting that the DNG contains an adjusted preview. I can take a DNG onto a machine with no Adobe software whatsoever, and create a print from it that looks identical to one made in Lightroom.
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