Canon 5D MK3 with 500mm f4.0 MK1 Samples

[William Walker]

Hi

I have just got back from a trip to a local game reserve. I hired the Canon 500mm f4.0 MK1 lens and thought I would share these results with you.

This picture is taken from a burst of ten - handheld. The quality of nine of the ten is similar to this pic. I have not touched the picture in post at all, no sharpening, nothing.

It would be interesting to know a) what do you think of the quality?
                                           b) is nine out of ten good? What would the normal be?

I was pretty impressed and would like to know if this is justified...

William

PS. I have also attached the Capture data.



                                   

[Tony Jay]

William it is a good shot - I think.
I would sharpen this up (capture sharpening is good and necessary) and repost it - then we could properly see whether you really have succeeded in your aims.

On a technical note remind me never to get into an argument with you - handholding was a herculean effort (and an almost unbelievable result as a consequence).
I must admit that I don't think I have ever used an aperture less than f4.0 with this lens when shooting birds - everything one can do to increase shutter speed is key to producing critical sharpness (clarity of detail).
Even with image stabilization I would go for a shutter speed of twice and thrice, if possible, the focal length of the lens - 1/1000ths or 1/1500ths in this case.
If you can afford it, alternatively hire it, a gimbal head is probably required for consistent quality with bird photography.

So, as suggested, sharpen this image and repost it.
After that we need to see the measured dimensions of your shoulders and upper arms!

Tony Jay

BTW I am considering travelling to Southern Africa later this year but it is a tug-of-war with New Zealand at the moment.

[William Walker]

Hi Tony

Thanks for those comments. Here's a different one, but processed.

I believe New Zealand is beautiful, but, Africa is Africa....

William

[Tony Jay]

...Thanks for those comments. Here's a different one, but processed...

That result is as good as I think is possible handholding a 500mm f4.0 lens.

...I believe New Zealand is beautiful, but, Africa is Africa....

Hence the pain from being pulled in all these diverse directions!

Tony Jay

[BernardLanguillier]

Is the first image you posted a 100% crop or is it a downres of the full res image?

If it is the former, then OK, it sounds reasonable.

If it is the latter then, please forgive me for being straightforward, but I feel that you are far from tapping into the 22mp res potential of the 5DIII.

I assume that the bird was not flying super fast, you should have a sharper image at 1/800 sec (although I would personally probably try to use a faster shutter speed). Either the focus is off (technique, settings, lens or camera issue) or something could be improved with your panning technique.

Final comment, you should shoot such a lens at f4, that's what it was designed for. This would enable you to shoot at 1/2000 sec at ISO 160 or at ISO100 still above 1/1000 sec.

Cheers,
Bernard

[William Walker]

Hi Tony and Bernard

Thanks for the feedback.

Bernard, in Photoshop, I cropped the picture to the size of the screen, at 100%. I am hoping that ties in with your "former" assumption! Thank you also for your setting suggestions. I was driving back to the camp when I saw the bird, so I jumped out and started firing. The only thing I changed was the focus from "One Shot" to "AI Servo" - so I was lucky then that I got anything at all.

Anyway, next time I will be better prepared, thank you!

William

[BernardLanguillier]

Bernard, in Photoshop, I cropped the picture to the size of the screen, at 100%. I am hoping that ties in with your "former" assumption!

William,

It definitely does. 

Cheers,
Bernard

[NancyP]

I love the bateleurs - my favorite old world raptor. (Of course, my favorite raptor is my national bird, the bald eagle). I am impressed by your hand-holding and getting a good shot at only 1/800 sec.

[Robert DeCandido PhD]

Hi - yes the African eagles are wonderful!

From a technical point of view, if you are hand-holding the 500mm F4 - as Bernard mentioned - shoot at F4...no need to stop down. Your raptors are past the infinity mark...and you won't need the extra DOF. As Bernard mentioned, that lens should be (and is designed to be) sharpest wide open.

Also, for any large, flying raptor such as a vulture - shoot at a minimum 1/2000 sec. You can easily shoot the 5D3 to 800asa...and if you can get it to 1/3200 sec, all the better (hand-held). If you shoot via some sort of Gimbal mount, you can drop down to about 1/1600 sec.

In tropical and subtropical countries, heat waves are the greatest enemy to sharpness from about 10am to 3:30pm...try to shoot before/after those hours of distant subjects. In the middle of the day, minimize the distance between you and the flying bird (only shoot close ups!), or shoot in cloudy weather...

Here is a portfolio of images shot in 2011-012 from Nepal of raptors in flight...this is a migration project I work on there - many large birds are shown. The 2011 images were all shot with a 5D2 and the 500mm F4 (version 1) - hand-held; the 2012 images were shot with a 5D3 and the 800 F5.6 - hand-held:

http://photo.net/photodb/folder?folder_id=1021128

The attached photos are all from 2012.

[William Walker]

Hi Robert

Thanks for the reply, the advice and some great shots!

You are in a good position to answer one of my questions, which is:

What is the percentage of good pictures you get from the 5D MK3 (with it's new focusing system), vs. the Mark 2? (In terms of "keepers"?)

WIlliam

[Robert DeCandido PhD]

Hi William,

I just saw your questions - give me a few hours and I can answer them...I am running out the door in a moment. In the meantime, have a look at the raptors in flight in this portfolio (Thailand 2007-2012):

http://photo.net/photodb/folder?folder_id=714849

You will have to scroll down a bit (past some landscape and people images) - but the birds begin with bee-eater photos - and then many raptors...most of which have not been see by westerners. This is another research project I have going...the data we are collecting here indicates that this is the best site in the Far East to study diurnal bird (particularly raptor) migration. Th 2010 images were done with the 7D and the 5oomm F4 vesrion 1 (quick analysis - I am not a big fan of the 7D for the work I do); the 2011 images were done with the 5D2 and the 500mm F4 Ver. 1 (I like 5D2 a lot); and this year (2012) the images were done with the 5D3 and the 800mm F5.6 (In a nutshell, the 5D3 just shoots faster - more frames per second - than the 5D2 - but I saw little, if any, improvement in IQ at 800/1600 asa which is where I shoot).

A few attached images as well...ask questions and I will respond to your other questions in a few hours.

Bob/nyc

[William Walker]

Hi Robert

Thanks, I was surprised to hear your thoughts on the focusing abilities of the Mk11 and the MK111. I also have both and find the Mk11 focusing to be not as good as the MK111. (I have not done any direct comparisons or tests, it is just the impression I get).

Question: Your birds are very nicely exposed, taking into account that backlighting is always a factor, how do you do it?

Also interesting is to see that we (South Africa) have quite a few birds in common with Eilat - European Bee-eaters, Orioles, Red-backed Shrike and others.(As I said at the top of this post, we have just got back from Umfolozi Game reserve, which is on the eastern coast of South Africa. There were more Red-backed Shrikes than just about any other bird.)

You have done some interesting work and have taken some great pictures of birds.

Many Thanks
Regards

William

[Robert DeCandido PhD]

Hi William - South Africa is a place I have always wanted to see...it will have to wait for now but I am very happy to see you are shooting and watching birds there...

OK to answer this question about the percentage of keepers - I always liked the ability of the 5D2 to lock onto the subjects I was shooting (often large raptors) moving from right to left (or left to right) in front of me. Both cameras (5D2/3) handle this scenario well (so long as it is not mid-day with strong heat waves). The 5D2 is as good as the 5D3 in this type of shooting...and my gut feeling is that both cameras do equally well with raptors high overhead. The center X of the 5D2 is accurate...

Both cameras have trouble when a bird (especially a small Accipiter or falcon) is coming right at the camera. I get a really really low amount of keepers with either camera in that scenario. Neither focus fast enough to get sharp head on shots - of small, fast birds. If the birds are larger (eagles and vultures - and hence fly slower - and fill the frame from a greater distance) both cameras seem to do equally well.

Where the 5D3 exceeds the 5D2 (for my use) was that it handled better and menus were a bit better thought out. If tomorrow I had to replace my 5D3 and money was an issue, I would get the 5D2 and likely do just fine in Thailand/Nepal for the coming year. If money was not an issue, I would get the 5D3.

I don't see much of a difference in image quality between the two cameras - Nikon made a big leap in terms of shadow noise and dynamic range in the D800 - I really wish Canon had the same sensor in the 5D3 body (and 25 mpixels would be fine). The 5D3 does shoot faster than the 5D2 (more frames per second), so that may be a factor in getting a shot of a flying bird vs the slower frame rate of the 5D2.

Both the 5D2 and the 5D3 are fine cameras - and I like them for their smaller size/weight than the "pro" 1Dx and 1Ds3 - I owned the latter and it was like holding a brick all day...I don't need the bulk for what I do - I need the best performance and IQ in the smallest package...

I guess if I had to guess at the difference in the percentage of keepers - the greater frame rate of the 5D3 allowed me to get more images of the same subject - poses and where light strikes a flying bird can vary much in a few seconds as a bird moves past you...

Hope this helps - Canon can improve on the 5D3 and I look forward to that Body/sensor combination in the years to come. For now I shoot with it - and it is so much better than anything we had 10 years ago, and certainly better than anything from the film days...I can get images now that I would not have even dreamed of trying for with film.

Bob

[Robert DeCandido PhD]

Hi William,

All my exposures are manual - I set the f-stop (F4 for the 500 or F5.6 for the 800) - and leave that there all day. Then I set the shutter speed at 1/2000 or greater - depending on the light. I then take a few shots to determine the best exposure...check the histogram and leave it at that combo for the rest of the day. I can do this because I stay in a fixed position...I am not roaming around chasing birds.

I don't trust the meter of the camera to get the best exposure for me...I figure out the proper shutter speed and ASA (usually 800 or 1600) and just worry about fitting the moving bird within the frame...pretty simple really.

Mostly I am watching for the light/angle I want to shoot...I try to worry about the technical aspect the least of anything...I need my eyes to be watching/looking for certain species that I don't have a photo of; or certain age/sex (I might need an adult male of a certain species for example but not a juvenile or an adult female). And sometimes I am looking to put any bird in a certain light/angle because anything would look good passing through that area.

All of these statements apply to photographing birds in flight for me...others may and can do things differently - no problemo.

Bob

[Tony Jay]

Hi William,

All my exposures are manual - I set the f-stop (F4 for the 500 or F5.6 for the 800) - and leave that there all day. Then I set the shutter speed at 1/2000 or greater - depending on the light. I then take a few shots to determine the best exposure...check the histogram and leave it at that combo for the rest of the day. I can do this because I stay in a fixed position...I am not roaming around chasing birds.

I don't trust the meter of the camera to get the best exposure for me...I figure out the proper shutter speed and ASA (usually 800 or 1600) and just worry about fitting the moving bird within the frame...pretty simple really.

Mostly I am watching for the light/angle I want to shoot...I try to worry about the technical aspect the least of anything...I need my eyes to be watching/looking for certain species that I don't have a photo of; or certain age/sex (I might need an adult male of a certain species for example but not a juvenile or an adult female). And sometimes I am looking to put any bird in a certain light/angle because anything would look good passing through that area.

All of these statements apply to photographing birds in flight for me...others may and can do things differently - no problemo.

Bob

That's a good summary of what I try to do when shooting birds.
I do move around so sometimes need to change ISO to get the correct shutter speed.
The key is that high shutter speed.
Four times the focal length of the lens is not overkill even if one is using image stabilization.

Tony Jay

[Robert DeCandido PhD]

Brahminy Kite from 20 Jan 2013 - shot at the Rice Fields near Petchaburi, Thailand (two hours south of Bangkok)

800mm f5.6 and Canon 5D Mark III

1/2500 sec shutter speed; 1600 asa - hand-held

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[NancyP]

All of your shots are lovely examples of birds that most of us don't see.

I am curious about what you didn't like about the 7D.
If you didn't have an 800mm f/5.6 lens, would you still choose the 5D2 or 5D3 over the 7D? Would you recommend 5D2 (or 5D3) over the 7D if the focal length available was 400mm or 500mm? I have heard it said that APS-C cameras with smaller pixel pitch are good for lower focal lengths because they "put more pixels on the bird". I am a beginner at bird photography, currently shooting with a 60D and 400mm f/5.6L, very happy with these, but considering picking up a used 7D body for improved AF and frames per second.

[Robert DeCandido PhD]

Hi Nancy,

7D: in strong even light, the camera is fine...no complaints. So with the light at my back and late afternoon (or morning) sun - I could shoot with the 7D and have no complaints. Unfortunately much of photography is not like that - light is at an angle (contrasty), and especially with birds in flight, if I am shooting up into the light (the underside of a bird flying over me), the 7D because of the Canon sensor and small pixels (but very many) - does not do well in that type of scenario. Shadows have color casts and cannot be recovered in post-processing...also I have to pretty much hit the exposure on the nose (well less leeway than with a 5D2/3 with their larger, but fewer, pixels). Finally, I am comfortable with the 7D only up to 800 asa (max - especially in contrasty light)...whereas the full-frame Canon sensor gives me 1 more stop (1600 asa) that I can work with (but shadows and underexposed areas can still be problematic). The 800 f5.6 and 400 f5.6 need the extra speed (1600 asa) whereas an F4 lens (500 F4) would be ok with a 7D,,,

So my recommendation would be to try and get closer or in better position (using one's mind) to try and see the bird photo before it happens in order to be closer...but yes the 7D helps in that regard - more pixels on the subject...

Good Luck - there is a way to maneuver oneself closer for better bird shots - often but not always...(eg ducks on the water and you are on shore...bring a recording device).

Robert DeCandido PhD
NYC

[NancyP]

Thanks, Robert.  I won't be buying another body soon, I have lots to learn with the camera and lens I have currently. I do fume about poor quality high ISO in twilight or bad weather. I would love to get good photos of action at a great horned owl's nest in the very large St. Louis Forest Park - the owls are plenty used to having papparazzi, birders, passing runners and bicyclists staring at the nest hole, and have used this hole for years. Ma and Pa are usually asleep at the golden hour.