National Health Systems

[Steve Weldon]

Absolutely! But I think I might have news for you, Steve. Putting health care at the top begins with a healthy lifestyle, and that means eating wholesome and unprocessed foods which have a lot of fibre content; eating fresh fruit and vegetables on a regular basis, and exercising on a regular basis, including aerobic exrecise such as brisk walking or jogging, and anaerobic exrecise such as lifting weights in the gym.

Putting health care at the top also means avoiding harmful substances such as tobacco and other recreational drugs, and refraining from excessive alcohol intake.

It also means avoiding many of the foods recommended by the weight-loss industry, such as low-fat milk and margarines containing polyunsaturated vegetable fats. These are highly processed foods which are not natural. Saturated fats, as in full cream milk, butter, cheese, bacon and eggs, etc should be no problem provided one eats them in moderation. Moderation is the key word. Energy input should not exceed energy output.

If everyone were to follow my advice, I predict there would eventually be massive redundancies and unemployment amongst doctors and nurses. No work for them. We wouldn't want that, would we? 

Look, Steve! All governments can only operate with the taxes they are able to collect. Small taxes tend to equate with small governments, and large taxes tend to equate with large governments. There's always an ongoing discussion about which services should be funded by taxes through the Government, and which should be privately controlled.

I think everyone would agree that a nation's Armed Forces[/b] should be controlled and funded by the government, from everyone's taxes, because the armed forces are basic services which are fundamental to the security of the nation, and the life and death of its citizens.

Likewise, it is my view that medical services in relation to any life-threatening situation that might apply to any one of a nation's citizens, whether rich or poor, should be freely available, and paid for by general taxes.

When it comes to frills and niceties, that's a different matter. No-one has ever died of a tooth ache, as far as I know, and for that reason dental care is not free in Australia.

Also, basic dental treatment such as tooth extractions and fillings are not particularly expensive. If you think they are, then take a trip to Thailand. I had a tooth extracted in Bangkok a few months ago. It cost approximately $30. My only concern was that the rather attractive, but rather slight and demure female dentist, didn't look strong enough to tug out my massive tooth. But she managed okay. 

1.  I'd be surprised?  No.. I've advocated healthy living since I can remember. I've never smoked or done drugs and I have never drank much with my last drink over 12-13 years ago.. I'm pretty much into live whole foods.   And I definitely agree lifestyle greatly affects overall health.

I don't think anyone wants to pay for the healthcare costs that come from a persons bad habits such as smoking or obesity or drinking..   In fact, when I said earlier in this thread that I'd definitely go support a one-payer for children and maybe even full time college students I had this in mind, young enough to not be able to be responsible for their own care.. and not yet old enough where their bad habits would cost the general populace.

2.  Yes, there will always be discussion on how best to use resources.  Unfortunately when a countries taxes are taking 50-75% or more of a persons pay check it just might be we've over stepped and gone to far.  That we lost our sense of responsibility.

3.  Why?  Should the government also pay for life-threatening conditions to our homes, cars, and other aspects of life?  Or should we really just strive to be responsible for ourselves and keep our hands out of our neighbours pockets as much as possible?  Where I come from putting your hands in your neighbours pockets quickly becomes a life threatening condition..

And btw.. Anyone in our country and yours can walk into a hospital at any time, including non-citizens, and be treated for life threatening conditions.  We've covered this many times in this thread.   So if that's the case, you are happy?

4.  With you being the exercise and diet guru and all.. not sure how to break this to you.  People die from toothaches and other dental related issues all the time.  Many doctors would tell you.. you can't separate the health of the body from dental health.  Infection carried to the hearth, going septic, blood conditions.. all dental related.  In all seriousness, I cannot see from a medical standpoint how any one-payer system can claim to be treating their patients thoroughly WITHOUT also covering dental.  But Australia and the UK don't.. not sure about Canada.

5.  Really?  I'll have to make it over there one of these days.. enlightening!

5. 

[Steve Weldon]

You've told us -- "Congratulations on finding a regular list of sponsors.  I found them the first time I looked on the site. These companies are not listed as funding the study in question."

It would help if you told us why those twenty-six companies - listed as providing "financial, leadership and knowledge support" for the "How Canada Performs" study - are not, what you would describe as "listed as funding the [How Canada Performs] study..."

I think you're having some trouble understanding how this company is set up.  It's not per say a "research company."  It's merely a defined program aimed towards "How Canada Performs" on a variety of subjects.. healthcare included.  They list the 26 companies as providing support on the whole.. not for individual studies.

I've always assumed you were familiar with reading studies but maybe not.  If you were, it would be expected for you to have the same issues with funding I have because funding, biases, etc, have become real issues.   They way any credible study deals with it is usually right up front in the preface or somewhere easy to see.. you don't need to go look for it.    They'll say "this study was funded by.."   And they list who funded the study.  Now.. if the person funding the study could be anticipated as being controversial.. then they'll address that right up front by saying something like "though companyx is a known supporter of Y, we are still accepting their funding but not their input or direction or some word to that effect.

What's been amusing in this conversation with you.. is that a program that defines itself by showing how Canada performs against other countries could be anything less than biased.. it's the purpose of their very existence.. to examine certain areas and show how Canada performs.   

Now.. if you think "but if they weren't performing well they'd just tell us that.." I'd say "show me an example."  If they regularly do this and you can show us examples of them doing so, and not just the token example.. then I'll admit I was wrong about them.

But come on Isaac.. it's a company who states right up front what their purpose is.. to make Canada look good in these areas.  So of course that's what they're going to do.

Anyway, whether or not I'm right or wrong on such a small area of the total discussion pales in comparison to the total itself.  I'd gladly concede to being wrong if it would just move us forward.  Whoever is right or wrong about this just doesn't matter when it's distracting from the bigger picture.

[Steve Weldon]

This is an expression of cynicism -- an emphatic negative judgement made before investigation, a kind of prejudice.


'When debating any issue, there is an implicit burden of proof on the person asserting a positive claim. "If this responsibility or burden of proof is shifted to a critic, the fallacy of appealing to ignorance is committed".'

The burden rests with you to show that you have found examples of actual bias in "How Canada Performs".

All you've done so far is express a cynical prejudice.


As you prefer cynical prejudice to logical thinking on such a small area, where we can easily check your statements, there's no reasoned discussion to be had.

Isaac.. can we at least try to be reasonable?

1.  This is an expression of realism.  If you choose not to live in this world that's okay.. I understand there's a certain number of people who will deny the obvious.

2.   Okay.. so you found a rule book.  Unfortunately my copy must have got lost in the mail.  Perhaps we could call it a "discussion" as in "discussion forum" where people can give well reasoned statements without the affidavits? 

3.  Saying it over and over again doesn't make it true.

4.   Sure there is.. we could discuss the other 99% you've been conveniently ignoring.

Obviously somewhere along the line you've got in a snit and I'm okay with that.  Let's have some fun instead:

If you're really unable to see how a program specifically started to show Canada in a good light might be biased let me create my own "Program" called "How is America Doing.."

How Is America Doing

We have secured funding of like minded companies who have a vested interest for or against certain areas of government as we do.  We are not a research group so we don't have to adhere to normal practices and ethics for research groups.  We'll call it a "program" because that can be whatever we want it to be.

We won't do a lick of our our research.  Instead we will mine published statistics and find the ones that show things in our favor.. and ignore those who don't.  Most people who agree won't look further because they're hearing what they want to hear, and most who disagree won't look further because they're lazy and don't care anyway.

We will create reports showing pre-determined views and plaster then all over the internet in an attractive package and carefully worded so those who think as we do will not question us.  In fact, they'll use this to support us in other areas.  We all know, if you hear it enough times then a certain percentage of people will think it's true.  Heaven help the poor fools who try and reason with these people for they are damned for all of eternity.  All others will be classified as cynics.

Isn't America great?  For $29.95 you can obtain written permission to use our program to show your country in any damn way you want.  Win any debate, show any program to be healthy and thriving, show any candidate to be winning, if you've got a horse in a race anywhere.. then let's show that horse in the best possible way.  For $29.95 you can do this and more.

But wait.  For a limited amount of time you can buy one program for $29.95 and get another program for free.  Heck, see this nice list of counterpoints?  We'll through in a set of those too.  All that AND free shipping!  How can you not afford to send in your $29.95 now. ..


Whew.. no one can find anything wrong with that without being labeled a cynic.. 

[Ray]

I don't think anyone wants to pay for the healthcare costs that come from a persons bad habits such as smoking or obesity or drinking.. 

I think we can agree on that point, yet it is my belief that most of the costs of health care are for that very purpose, wherever the money may come from. We live to be merry, and that includes eating and drinking for pleasure with narry a thought for the consequences.

Should the government also pay for life-threatening conditions to our homes, cars, and other aspects of life?

You're referring to inanimate objects here, aren't you? In so far as these inanimate objects are life-threatening, then of course the Government has a role to play. Roads should be designed and constructed so they are safe to drive on. Houses should be built in accordance with certain standards to withstand the onslaught of hurricanes and floods, if they are situated in areas frequently subjected to hurricanes and floods, and when infrequent disasters of record-breaking severity occur, as recently with Sandy, then the government has to step in, as your great President Obama has vowed to do, without interference and delays from red tape.

Many doctors would tell you.. you can't separate the health of the body from dental health. Infection carried to the hearth, going septic, blood conditions.. all dental related. In all seriousness, I cannot see from a medical standpoint how any one-payer system can claim to be treating their patients thoroughly WITHOUT also covering dental. But Australia and the UK don't.. not sure about Canada.

Just for the record, I might have misrepresented the situation regarding dental care for the uninsured in Australia. I suspect dental care in Australia for the uninsured is probably similar in quality to the general medical care in America for the uninsured. You state,

Anyone in our country and yours can walk into a hospital at any time, including non-citizens, and be treated for life threatening conditions.

In Australia, that also applies to any dental situation which any individual thinks is an urgent problem, such as a tooth ache or a filling which has dropped out. Our hospitals have emergency dental clinics. To get attention one has to turn up at the dental clinic at 7am, or earlier if you want to be first in the queue. The clinic will probably open at 8am or 8,30am, and you might be lucky to see a dentist by 10am. The problem tooth will be extracted or refilled, but any other matters that need attention will require one to be put on a long waiting list for an appointment. By long, I mean 6 months or more.

This situation is far different from a visit to the doctor for whatever reason. Those who do not have private insurance in Australia do not have to self-diagnose themselves as having a life-threatening condition before getting a speedy appointement with a doctor. Nor do they have to queue up for long hours in the early morning, at least not where I live.

All that is required is a simple phone call to make an appointment, which can usually be the same day. Sometimes there may be a slight wait beyond the time of the appointment; sometimes not. The problem can be quite trivial, such as ears getting a bit blocked up with wax, a cough that won't go away, or a pain in the arse. One usually has to pay a small amount for any medication that is prescribed.

Hope I've managed to enlighten you, Steve, on the qualities of a good health system. 

[jeremypayne]

3.  Saying it over and over again doesn't make it true.

Ok ... then I will say it.

All your numbered lists have shown us is how uneducated and cynical you are. 

[Bryan Conner]

Ok ... then I will say it.

All your numbered lists have shown us is how uneducated and cynical you are. 

And your reply above have shown us how mature you are.

[jeremypayne]

And your reply above have shown us how mature you are.

Maturity is over-sold.  Some of my best friends are little kids who can't even say maturity.

... and if you and Steve are mature and I am not ... I can definitely live with that.

[Bryan Conner]

Maturity is over-sold.  Some of my best friends are little kids who can't even say maturity.

... and if you and Steve are mature and I am not ... I can definitely live with that.

I am not agreeing with Steve...or you completely for that matter.  I was simply stating my opinion on you making the debate personal.  You were doing well with your points and your reasoning until then.  I know that I am not always mature, I think that sometimes that is a positive thing.  In this case, it is not. 

[Steve Weldon]

I think we can agree on that point, yet it is my belief that most of the costs of health care are for that very purpose, wherever the money may come from. We live to be merry, and that includes eating and drinking for pleasure with narry a thought for the consequences.

You're referring to inanimate objects here, aren't you? In so far as these inanimate objects are life-threatening, then of course the Government has a role to play. Roads should be designed and constructed so they are safe to drive on. Houses should be built in accordance with certain standards to withstand the onslaught of hurricanes and floods, if they are situated in areas frequently subjected to hurricanes and floods, and when infrequent disasters of record-breaking severity occur, as recently with Sandy, then the government has to step in, as your great President Obama has vowed to do, without interference and delays from red tape.

Just for the record, I might have misrepresented the situation regarding dental care for the uninsured in Australia. I suspect dental care in Australia for the uninsured is probably similar in quality to the general medical care in America for the uninsured. You state,
In Australia, that also applies to any dental situation which any individual thinks is an urgent problem, such as a tooth ache or a filling which has dropped out. Our hospitals have emergency dental clinics. To get attention one has to turn up at the dental clinic at 7am, or earlier if you want to be first in the queue. The clinic will probably open at 8am or 8,30am, and you might be lucky to see a dentist by 10am. The problem tooth will be extracted or refilled, but any other matters that need attention will require one to be put on a long waiting list for an appointment. By long, I mean 6 months or more.

This situation is far different from a visit to the doctor for whatever reason. Those who do not have private insurance in Australia do not have to self-diagnose themselves as having a life-threatening condition before getting a speedy appointement with a doctor. Nor do they have to queue up for long hours in the early morning, at least not where I live.

All that is required is a simple phone call to make an appointment, which can usually be the same day. Sometimes there may be a slight wait beyond the time of the appointment; sometimes not. The problem can be quite trivial, such as ears getting a bit blocked up with wax, a cough that won't go away, or a pain in the arse. One usually has to pay a small amount for any medication that is prescribed.

Hope I've managed to enlighten you, Steve, on the qualities of a good health system. 

1.  We can and further I agree.   Most doctors I've observed spend a good 70-80% of their day treating self-inflicted issues.  Diabetes, heart disease, respiratory diseases, hypertension, addiction, and more..  mostly brought on a poor lifestyle.

2.  I suspect our President is finding it's not so easy when the shoe is on the other foot, even with a relatively minor disaster when compared to Katrina.   Again, I don't blame the Presidents at all.  Not even for the perceived lack of response.  I blame the people (as I do for healthcare) for not being prepared and having the discipline to have backup plans and supplies in place THEY can effect.  This includes a minimum 2 weeks worth of supplies to include foods, cooking fuels, medicines, and so forth.  For the first two weeks following a disaster we should only be hearing from the injured, elderly, or those who have been victimized n some way.  Everyone else should be sucking up not being able to watch television, staying out of the way so emergency crews can work, and living off their supplies.   And of course it's the same people who haven't prepared by having health insurance who haven't prepared for disasters..

3.  It's nice you have the dental service.. wonder what it costs your government?   Our family visited the dentist twice this year.  In each case I was curious if it would be cheaper to pay for it out of pocket like some guy walking in off the street without insurance.. or paying whatever my insurance required.  Well.. they wanted $920 for a veneer for me and $2700 for four wisdom teeth extracted on my son.. walk in prices that the clinic would have billed a customer/patience without insurance.  We chose insurance.  A few weeks later we got a bill from the clinic(s) that they charged my insurance $182 for the veneer and $423 for the oral surgery.   This is a major part of our problem.  People who could otherwise afford their own dental without insurance can no longer do so because the prices are inflated.. I asked why?  They said to cover the cost of those  who said they'd pay and didn't, or couldn't, etc.  I asked why that cost isn't shared among the insurance as well.  They said they refused.  But a guy without insurance can't refuse.  It's a broken system that heavily pushes people to participate in the insurance game.

4.  And it's appreciated.  I'm sure there are pieces of your system we could use in our own, and maybe pieces of ours you guys could use.  Our countries are very different. so not all will translate.. but there's nothing wrong with getting what you can.

[Steve Weldon]

I am not agreeing with Steve...or you completely for that matter.  I was simply stating my opinion on you making the debate personal.  You were doing well with your points and your reasoning until then.  I know that I am not always mature, I think that sometimes that is a positive thing.  In this case, it is not. 

There was nothing to agree with, no information presented, no reasoning, no nothing.. just insults.  This happens when they have run out of everything else.  I don't take it personally.

[Steve Weldon]

The definition of realism is not a judgement made before investigation.

The definition of cynicism is an emphatic negative judgement made before investigation.

You wrote "...is that a program that defines itself by showing how Canada performs against other countries could be anything less than biased...".

That denial, without investigation, of even the possibility that it "could be anything less than biased..." is by definition an expression of cynicism.


You made a definitive statement - "We have no knowledge of funding because they have selected to provide none."

The problem is that we can all see that they did provide the information and you found the information -- your definitive statement cannot be true.

There is no "well reasoned" when you start from a statement that cannot be true.


You claim that it's "a program specifically started to show Canada in a good light" but that is not how the program describes itself -- "How Canada Performs: A Report Card on Canada—assesses Canada’s quality of life compared with that of its peer countries."

We don't need you to tell a story about "might be biased".

We need you to show that you have found examples of actual bias in "How Canada Performs".

1.  I did investigate all that was needed.  I pointed out my investigation time and again.  Just because you personally don't accept it.. doesn't make it untrue.

2.  Again, there have been tons of investigation.  Maybe not the type you'd agree with, but with all the information out there to read and take it, if it isn't presented in a way that meets my personal filters for acceptance then it's "investigation enough."  Credibility is a scarce resource.  I find this study has none.  It's entirely self-serving in concept so I won't be wasting my time further.  Sorry, but next time you try and support an argument use a less biased resource.  Otherwise I personally won't accept it.  And don't fool yourself by thinking I'm a minority.  It's a piss-poor way of presenting information UNLESS and it did this very well.. unless you're catering to your base. And Canada is it's base. Most people in Canada want to believe their system is great and their taxes are being used wisely.. works well there.

3.  You're wrong.  There has been plenty of good solid reasoning and debate, but like a dog with a bone you've ignored it all, refused to answer questions, all in an attempt to make a point you'll never make.

4.  Come on Isaac.. have you been that much programmed that you can't see they're one and the same?   The only reason I've allowed this to go on so long is in the smallest hope you'll see this one point.   

5.  No.  The "study" hasn't earned that much.  In review it fails on it's concepts.  It's as simple as that.  It has to make it through one filter before it goes through another.  This doesn't pass the first smell test.


Anyway.. we're never going to agree on this.. that we can agree not to agree and leave this particular subject behind?   

[jeremypayne]

There was nothing to agree with, no information presented, no reasoning, no nothing.. just insults.  This happens when they have run out of everything else.  I don't take it personally.

Oh please.  I participate in meaningful ways in meaningful conversations.

This has been one long exercise in typing.  I have rarely seen so many words wasted on nothing.

[Steve Weldon]

Oh please.  I participate in meaningful ways in meaningful conversations.

This has been one long exercise in typing.  I have rarely seen so many words wasted on nothing.

We were in this thread.. and you have participated only through insults in this thread.  Surely you knew I meant this thread?  I mean, who would think they've built up enough "points" for meaningful conversation in one thread that they were allowed to only insult in another?

Try this.  Choose a point you agree with concerning the subject matter and tell us what you think.  Try to separate your view on the subject matter from your view of the person.  Who knows, through discussion you just might change your mind about something. 

We've actually learned a lot about the health care systems of each others countries.  We've expressed views.  So far better than most threads. 

[Steve Weldon]

Of course, you are free to decide that no investigation is "investigation enough" for you -- and now we can judge your opinions accordingly.


Without your cynical prejudice we can learn -- "...that relative to its peer countries, Canada’s performance is weak on key indicators. ... Canada has the third highest mortality rate due to diabetes among the peer countries, and diabetes prevalence continues to increase. This should be raising alarm bells, not only among Canadian policy-makers but also among the public."

No "show Canada in a good light" and "assesses Canada’s quality of life" are not "one and the same".

1.  Yes you can.  Thank you.

2.  Well through your home court prejudices we learn that the Mortality Rates Due To Flaws Inherent in Countries Current Health Care System aren't even being discussed.  Have you reached the point yet where you realize what isn't included in a "program outcome" can actually invalidate the entire result?  (come on Isaac.. I've been helping you the entire way, you can do it..)  Kinda like what you don't say can become a lie?   If you put an "outcome" out there masquerading as a "study" and it doesn't even mention the most controversial issues surrounding the subject in question.. well.. that's my number #1 filter.  

If you can't even acknowledge there might be a flaw in the system.. then the system itself isn't being evaluated.  What's being evaluated instead is a list of self-selected indicators which may or may not have anything to do with the program itself.   Even a relatively dull person has to be asking why these indicators and not others: are they (the indicators) balanced, redundant, germane, measuring our greatest concerns, showing our greatest needs, etc, etc.. I'm sure by now you can see some areas of concern on your own.  

In other words Isaac.. and I do thank you for hanging on and the resultant discussion.. if you're going to put a "study" out there for debate.. pick one that means something.  Not just the first one that shows up on Google that supports your personal views.


3.  Ah, but now you can see how it really is.  Or at a minimum how I do.

[Steve Weldon]

Yet another baseless claim. You make stuff up -- and now we can judge your opinions accordingly.

I'm a California resident - I have no association at all with Canada.

Why do you have to be so hostile?   Who said anything about Canada?  If I'd wanted to say Canada then I would have.  Is this the extent of your critical reading skills?  I don't know what position you're coming from because you have refused to answer a single question, so I came up with a generic "place" you're coming from.  I've tried (patiently) to answer every single question you've asked.  You've answered none I've asked.   I've waited patiently for a single piece of reasoned opinion or logic coming from YOU on the subject, while providing plenty of mine.  And again you haven't met the challenge.  If we want to judge opinions accordingly then I say we go with that.


Isaac, stop being lazy for gawds sake.  You took such a lazy man's route to taking a position by posting such an encumbered (biased) study that wouldn't pass the filters of a competent grade school student.  It is that hard to just say what you believe?  No one is trying to win, no one trying to insult, no games are being played.  It's an adult discussion forum.  Let's discuss.  I really don't believe the best you can do is post some study that contributes so little and says not a word about your own beliefs. 

[BlasR]

I did my part, I light a candle for Michael.

About Ins, in Canada, its better then US?

I am moving to Australia, its no one there, just in the middle, no see anyone, in spend my life away from anyone control my CASH, or tell me to work hard the others need me to to get free stuff, I just wish another BHO don't go there..I can't even write his name.

He, was in Chicago, waiting for those the don't like to work, in want ME to pay for their ins, food,tabaco,drug in U name it, they got it all, are those the vote for him...well the luck stop I quit my job...I want free as well. even so, I hate it..BUT maybe Jeff can send me his check?


Michael,  U will be just fine.

God Bless!

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

Judging by your eloquent writing, you've already spent your life "away from anyone," especially schools (I guess you missed the memo they are free).

[BlasR]

I can fly airplane..I went to school for that!  I can write in Spanish so well, I had been a news paper Journalist for over 24 years..Went to school for that as well!(wow)

i was a professional jockey, work like a dog( but a white dog), to earn money, then a professional Boxer (didn't lose a fight in 11 fights) So i can kick your ass as well.  I start working when i was 4 years old..if anyone ask for a favor, I did the favor, no gift can be accepted..A favor was a favor...My father die, because we didn't have money to pay to the Doctor, so he send him home to die..At 43 he was gone..16 kids one Mom..Lets go to work..No favor from NO ONE,,LETS GO TO WORK..Work, like a DOGs,,(I'm the poor one, in still alive 13, in I'm rich) went to war as a Journalist, see the worse, but nothing like now, putting the thing to be president..oh lord! help us all!!!!!

Tmy hard work, I can rest, in now he saying give it to you to smoke?  Get lost!..., now stupid people like U, believed the  my hard working MONEY, I should give to them,(I'm sure 100% plus, U are one of them)..As, I think the only people it doesnt scare and who Obama hussein will be celebrating are the radical muslims, terrosists( look Libia) groups and of course the American commi's as well as the people who are depressed and need someone to hold their hand.  and those the want my hard working money, to use drug with it.

HE IS A LIAR and is BAD for America.

May God bless all.

Oh I forget..I can take photos as well..No bad!

Send me a check, noooo,stick it.....I hate free things..Never accept it, never will...never want it in I will DIE first, if I will jealous of those the work, make million or billion or a cent, in I want to be like them.

Be you, no someone else.
take a shower U need it!!!!!



Watch obama 2016..I did,  look his own Brother, or just find out of the uncle(drunk one) the is here in MA< ask, if Obama help him..Obama want we all be the same..BUT no him...

so why to work anymore?  we should always just drink, in wait for the next check to come...to the hell your F**** Ass will get anything else from me.

I just wish, Michael, feel better don't U?

enjoy life!

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... My father die, because we didn't have money to pay to the Doctor, so he send him home to die..At 43 he was gone...

Isn't it something BHO's healthcare could have helped with?

[BlasR]

NOPE..NOTHING FREE.work for it, or die  with hussein, he work hard, lets take from him, and , lets give it to someone else....Watch Obama 2016, oh BTW, he only give what he take from someone else, no what he got..people are just plain stupid, ...who will pay for it?  We paying over 20,000 since the jerk took office...less then 10, before..gas? over 4, less then 2...like i said in stay "I think the only people it doesnt scare and who Obama hussein will be celebrating are the radical muslims, terrosists groups and of course the American commi's as well as the people who are depressed and need someone to hold their hand.those the don't want to work, in expect the free things, from those the work to be someone"...why to work now?

before someone did a favor, a thank u, was all the ask for...now is can u do me a favor, will cost u an eye..But I understand, free things MUST be great for people like U...So, to bad, will not last

HE IS A LIAR and is BAD for America.

May God bless all