Z3200 ICC Profile Creation Problems

[Jpeters]

after many years of lurking in the dark shadows of the forum. I have a need to step out of the shadows.

Problem: after almost two years of printing on the machine. I have just now tried to create my own profiles for my materials.  I have followed ever so carefully the two guides by Mark and Geraldo.
Printed out 4 charts (1728 RGB) on two different materials.(Canvas and HP photo gloss) i get to the part where it says "measure chart previously printed" and the printer goes into some loop and gets stuck. the printer says it is loading the 1728 file info for hours and the Utility will not cancel i have to force close the program window.  The utility sometimes says that the wrong paper is loaded. i check and double check the settings for roll and paper type. other times the utility tells me that it can not connect to the printer. i know that isnt true because i can submit a print and print just like normal.

So basically i can print a chart out but i can not seem to go through the scan steps and make the printer activate the spectro and scan the print.

I can create new custom paper types and the machine and software will print out the small chart and scan it and then calibrate.

I have updated firmware. I have removed Utility and reinstalled numerous times. I have turned off the printer unplugged it restarted. I have tried printing the chart and and going directly to scanning it instead of waiting to let it dry overnight.

so basically my question is this: is there anyone out there running a Z3200 with HP Utility on windows 10 and able to create profiles? if so what step am i missing?  or is this really a windows problem and i have to go out and buy a computer with windows 7 on it and install HP Utility on that to be able to profile off of?

Specs:
Z3200 44" "B" serial connect directly to my router via LAN
Firmware TR12-RB_16.0.1.1
Windows 10 64 bit
HP Utility 1.17.0.3

Seeking magic in the printer universe. Thanks for any and all help


Jeff
 

[Mark Lindquist]

How about a little more info please.

Did you print the chart on a single roll or several sheets?

You must calibrate the paper first with the same name you plan to use when you scan and create the ICC Profile.

When you load the paper, you must choose that exact paper.

I hate to say it, but I know someone else who has Windows 10 and they have been unable to get a finished scan.

Perhaps others here will say if they have gotten successful scans using Windows 10.

You could uninstall the Win 10 driver for the printer and revert back to a Windows 8 driver.

Sometimes that works:

http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=115437.0

I've recommended that people go back an operating system or two, including Utility, and it often solves the problems.

If you have the time, maybe give it a try.

-Mark

[Geraldo Garcia]

Jeff,

Just a quick clarification in case you got us wrong: All those tutorials are about using the HP Z3200 to create profiles for other printers. You do not need to go through all that hassle to create profiles for the Z3200 itself, just go to the Color Center => Paper Preset Management => Profile paper. The printer will print the target, scan and generate the profile automatically. The only catch is that you will not be able to use 1728 patch charts, only the standard chart that is considerably smaller but produces excellent results on the Z3200.

If you want  to go dow that (troublesome) route to use the 1728 patches, you must make sure you are loading the printed char correctly. Cut it from the roll (in case you used roll paper) and load it as a cut sheet with skew check. If that does not help you I would try to reinstall the HP Utility.

I am using windows 10 without any issues, by the way.

Good luck and keep us posted.

[Mark Lindquist]

Thanks for weighing in about Windows 10 Geraldo.  Man, I have found that the Z3200 is really picky, very finicky about reading the 1728 patches.  Everything has to be just right it seems.  Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't.

Very strange.  But if everything is right, it will come through.  Using sheets can be difficult.

Also, I've found that cutting a roll and feeding it as a sheet can be problematic unless plenty of room is left at the bottom of the sheet.

All in all, however, there is a big difference in the 1728 profile as opposed to the standard profile, so the aggravation is worth it, I think.

Since you do so much profiling, no doubt you've become very good at it.  I'm not as good as you but I am learning by doing and experimenting.

Best -

Mark

[Jpeters]

Thanks for the replies Mark, Geraldo

Geraldo's answer about loading the paper at a "sheet with skew check" was the answer/piece of the puzzle i was missing.

I will answer the questions for posterity and give some more details about the "how" i observed.

Mark:
Chart was printed on single roll
Calibration was performed prior to printing (this brings up an interesting question.  can we calibrate material that is non aqueous? for example a solvent based material. use the tiff file and print a chart on a solvent printer. can we bring that chart and material over and scan it and create a profile for a Seiko, Roland, HP, Mamaki large format solvent printer?)
Paper selection upon loading was checked and rechecked to verify matching
I have not tried going versions of the printer driver and/or Utility

Geraldo:
Not being educated about the spectro and how exactly works on a deep color level...if there is only a small swatch color sampling printed upon calibration would you not get an improved color range from creating a 1728 swatch and printing it if only to create a profile for your own printer? 
i feel like i have been getting nice prints for the last two years on my printer loading material and just doing the calibration. i was curious to see what effect if any creating a profile from a much larger swatch sampling would bring about.  i realize i wont know the answer to that in just 10-12 prints. it would take about a year worth of prints, photo, vector art, b&w to be able to form an opinion.  if anyone has any color gamut charts comparing a "basic" color calibration with a larger 1728 (for example) i would love to see just how good the "basic" calibration is with factual data.  in my minds eye i am envisioning some kind of graph similar to what i have seen done with sRGB, Pro and Adobe color space graphics to be able to compare color ranges.  but again i am speaking from a place of ignorance.

How Details:
My Printed chart was automatically cut from the roll on all 3 of my printed charts. i am unaware, when printing a chart like this, how to turn off the cutter and make it not cut the printed chart automatically. regular print, i know where the "off" selection is, but this wasnt a "regular" print submitted through the job queue.
The load printed sheet with skew solved my issue of the printer/Utility not wanting to scan the print. I am now the owner of a great looking ICC profile. (at least .txt file. I have yet to finish the steps and convert it into an usable file just yet)
The printer when it got to the end of the chart spit out the print like there was not enough material on the back end to advance the chart far enough to be scanned and still have the rollers engaged. i taped an 8" section of blank material and made a "tail" that perfectly aligned across and down effectively lengthening the chart by 8".  Printer then scanned and was able to finish the scanning process without ejecting the sheet completely out.
Geraldo's tip about loading the sheet and advancing the material just so the first row of color tabs is visible under the rollers was huge. i forgot that little bit of information and loaded the paper 3 times trying to figure out why i get everything set just right only to go through all the steps in Utility and then send the file to the printer to have it spit back out again. very frustrating.

I would be interested hearing thoughts/experiences using this to create profiles for vinyl adhesive back solvent printers. I have a corporate customer whos logo is 280C and they are VERY particular about it being exactly 280C.  It has always been a struggle to get the color tuned in when using the suppled manufactures media profiles.   

What benefits, or is there a way to accurately measure benefits of creating profiles for your own printer, versus loading a new material in and creating a new media preset and small swatch calibration.

also interesting to note that the calibration small swatch for the photo paper was 10 hexagons wide x 16 deep and the calibration swatch for the canvas material was 11 hexagons wide x 16 deep. the canvas and matte cotton paper charts had an added row of black/grey at the end of the chart where the photo paper chart ended in yellow hexagons

Thanks for the brain storming


-Jeff

[Geraldo Garcia]

Jeff,
Just a quick answer from my phone, tomorrow I will write a proper answer from the computer, but I wanted to point you a possible mistake from your side: I believe you are mistaking the "calibration" as the basic and automated profiling capabilities. There are 3 different things:
1) calibration (linearization, does not produce an ICC profile)
2) automated profiling, easily prints and scans a chart automatically with a few hundred patches and produces an ICC profile.
3) manually printing, reading and creating a profile as we told on the tutorials. It allows working with larger charts and also creating profiles for other printers.

A target chart with a larger number of patches may allow the creation of a more precise profile for a less linear paper/printer combination, but for a "good" paper/printer combination the difference from a large chart to a smaller one is not so noticeable. It is waaaay better to have a good custom profile from a smaller chart than a canned profile.

[Geraldo Garcia]

Just completing my answer from yesterday:

If you check the HP color center, under the "Paper Preset Management" you will find several options and among them "Calibrate paper", "Profile paper" and "Color Measurement".

Calibrate paper is a simple linearization procedure that prints and scans a gradation of density (16 levels) for each ink (10 or 11 depending on the media setting). This is an important feature that must be used independently of the profiling but it is not the same, not even a simplified version, of an ICC profile creation. It simply adjusts the ink deposition level used to achieve some specified tones for each ink, improving the consistency and the reliability of the printer.

Profile paper is the fully automated ICC profile creation option. The printer prints and scans a chart with a few hundred patches and generates an ICC profile ready to use. It is way better than most canned profiles and its so easy that I honestly think it is the best solution for most users that simply want a good profile for their Z3200 printer without the hassle of using external software.

Color Measurement is the option that allows you to print and scan larger charts and also scan charts printed on other printers, but it requires the use of an external profiling software. As it is less automated it allows a greater level of control of the parameters used for the profile creation. That, along with the larger chart, may render a more precise profile if if the paper/printer combination is "tricky" and the user knows very well what he is doing. A profile from a larger chart does not mean that a larger gamut will be achieved.

About using the Z to generate profiles for solvent prints on vinyl, I can't see why not. The question is more about how consistent is the solvent printer. I saw some signage equipment in the past that had a quite large difference from print to print with the same settings, that would render the profile almost useless. But if the printer is consistent it may help you achieve your goal.

Regards.

[Mark Lindquist]

Here is a technical Newsletter on profiling and calibrating with the Z3200.  (Courtesy our friend from the Netherlands)

Working with other comercially avaiable papers - Z3200

[Jpeters]

Thank you both.  Outstanding resources.

I will let you know how the profiling goes.

-J