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Author Topic: Fine Focus Tuning  (Read 5708 times)

alangubbay

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Fine Focus Tuning
« on: July 15, 2012, 05:20:59 am »

I find Lens Align difficult to use.  Without a proper laboratory test bench it very hard to be sure that the camera and target are correctly aligned. Recently I came across the method advocated by Keith Cooper of Northlight images using moire interference patterns on a computer display.  This is very simple.  One focuses very accurately using live view then drops the mirror down and presses the AF button to re-focus whilst watching the lens. Any movement will indicate the error.  Clearly this assumes that the pentaprism live view will give an identical image to that on the sensor.  Is this the case? Will contrast and phase detection always give the same result. What distance should one use? Canon say at least 50 x the focal length. Others say x 30 is adequate and some advocate using a short distance. What is the rationale behind this?  Your comments would be appreciated.
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Tony Jay

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Re: Fine Focus Tuning
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2012, 05:56:49 am »

Alan, perhaps you would be so kind as to outline the issues you experience with LensAlign in detail.
I must confess the alignment issues - camera to target - that you mention do not seem to me to be much a problem, but I am willing to accept that there are things I might not know and understand.

Regards

Tony Jay
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Fine Focus Tuning
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2012, 08:32:35 am »

I find Lens Align difficult to use.  Without a proper laboratory test bench it very hard to be sure that the camera and target are correctly aligned.

Setting up the LensAlign perfectly is a bit tricky, but there is a limit on how accurate one needs to be. One of the benefits of the LensAlign kit is that one also gets a sense of how much of a DOF tolerance one has at the chosen shooting distance.

Quote
Recently I came across the method advocated by Keith Cooper of Northlight images using moire interference patterns on a computer display.  This is very simple.  One focuses very accurately using live view then drops the mirror down and presses the AF button to re-focus whilst watching the lens. Any movement will indicate the error.

I'm the 'designer' of the moiré technique to improve ones AF Micro Adjustment.  It is very accurate, it is based on minimizing optical blur that functions as a low-pass filter that prevents such moiré. Minimize the blur, maximize the moiré, by optimal focusing.


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Clearly this assumes that the pentaprism live view will give an identical image to that on the sensor.  Is this the case?

The pentaprism doesn't play a role. The Live View image comes straight from the sensor that will capture the image itself.

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Will contrast and phase detection always give the same result.

Not necessarily, but the goal is to have good focus in either case. When contrast is low or has a confusing pattern, contrast detect can fail. Contrast detect should be more accurate than phase detect, but it is also slower. Phase detect can fail if the optical system produces different results with the aperture wide open, and when stopped down for the shot itself.

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What distance should one use? Canon say at least 50 x the focal length. Others say x 30 is adequate and some advocate using a short distance. What is the rationale behind this?  Your comments would be appreciated.

The best distance is the one you use most for your actual shooting. However, that may be unpractical for testing. Since many lens designs are optimized for a certain distance (somewhere between infinity and close by), one can use that distance, but we don't know what design distance that is. Some say it's 10 metres, some say it is at 50x the focal length, but we simply don't know. It is also a bit irrelevant if in practice we normally shoot at a different distance, making that distance more relevant to get correct focus at, IMHO.

Also, traditionally one tested resolution and focus by shooting a test chart on a flat wall. In order to find the limiting resolution on film, that required shooting at distances like 100x the focal length to avoid getting everything in focus. Digital sensors usually have lower resolution limits than very fine grain high contrast film, so we can shoot at shorter distances and still have some of the finest detail unresolved. The shorter shooting distances like 25-50x the focal length also make it easier because we don't need as much space/distance. The shorter the shooting distance, the more accurate our test target needs to be, because the magnification factor of the optical projection of that target on our sensor is larger.

To achieve a manifestation of clearly visible moiré, we may need to vary the distance a bit, so I recommend to choose a distance that produces an obvious moiré pattern when in focus, and which is close to your common shooting distance. When that is impractible, (e.g. telelens and your room is not long enough) I would test at a couple of metres distance and later verify with shots taken at common actual shooting distances. There will always be some front or back focus, but we want to remove the front/back bias so that on average the focus is closest to the intended position.

Cheers,
Bart
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texshooter

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Re: Fine Focus Tuning
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2012, 04:17:59 pm »

What I do is autofocus on a crisp dollar bill, take several shots with the camera calibration adjustment dial set at various values, +3,+2,+1,0,-1,-2,-3, and judge the sharpest shot zoomed in on my monitor.

No need for special equipment.
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rgs

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Re: Fine Focus Tuning
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2012, 08:24:04 pm »

What I do is autofocus on a crisp dollar bill, take several shots with the camera calibration adjustment dial set at various values, +3,+2,+1,0,-1,-2,-3, and judge the sharpest shot zoomed in on my monitor.

No need for special equipment.

I'm interested in experienced comments to this post. It looks simple enough and reasonable enough to me except I think I'd like a larger target so I could get more of a middle distance reading.
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Tony Jay

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Re: Fine Focus Tuning
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2012, 12:15:49 am »

Tony Jay
...I'm interested in experienced comments to this post. It looks simple enough and reasonable enough to me except I think I'd like a larger target so I could get more of a middle distance reading...

Hence the design of the LensAlign system.

Regards

Tony Jay
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Fine Focus Tuning
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2012, 08:50:59 am »

What I do is autofocus on a crisp dollar bill, take several shots with the camera calibration adjustment dial set at various values, +3,+2,+1,0,-1,-2,-3, and judge the sharpest shot zoomed in on my monitor.

I'm interested in experienced comments to this post. It looks simple enough and reasonable enough to me except I think I'd like a larger target so I could get more of a middle distance reading.

Hi,

What's there to say, it is a 'brute force' attempt to pick one image out of a whole bunch. It requires a series of test settings to detect a certain optimum in the range of settings. It denies the slight randomness that one will still have around the optimal focus plane, but there may be a pattern of improvement towards a certain setting and a degradation beyond it.

The best we can hope to achieve with this type of user camera calibration, is to take out the front/back-focus bias of the phase detect AF system.

To do a better job at nailing the correct setting, requires to objectively quantify the results of the various settings (by using a testchart that allows to quantify the resolution). That will allow to also get a statistical sense of probability around a found optimum. Then it becomes a question of how much effort one is willing to put in to achieve the best result.

The LensAlign method gives a lot of information, such as the required + or - direction of the correction and the DOF tolerance, in each shot. The Moiré method even works without taking any shots, just by observing the movement (distance/direction) of the AF attempt relative to an optically optimal focus position. A series of shots with different adjustment settings and then picking the best one out of the lot, seems to be inefficient, but it will ultimately result in the same conclusion as the other methods.

One more thing I have noticed that may affect the AF result, is the color temperature under which the tests are done. Shooting under tungsten light may lead to slightly different results than under daylight (it depends on the lens and whether the AF sensor is color filtered).

Cheers,
Bart
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Ellis Vener

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Re: Fine Focus Tuning
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2012, 10:42:10 am »

Shooting under tungsten light may lead to slightly different results than under daylight (it depends on the lens and whether the AF sensor is color filtered).

The AF sensors themselves are not color filtered as far as I know. However more modern cameras (5D mk.3, 1D X, D4, D800/D800s,  and possibly cameras as far back as the D3 and 1D Mark IV) use R/G/B information and algorithms from the light metering system to improve phase based (reflex viewing)  autofocus performance.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Fine Focus Tuning
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2012, 11:50:57 am »

Shooting under tungsten light may lead to slightly different results than under daylight (it depends on the lens and whether the AF sensor is color filtered).

The AF sensors themselves are not color filtered as far as I know. However more modern cameras (5D mk.3, 1D X, D4, D800/D800s,  and possibly cameras as far back as the D3 and 1D Mark IV) use R/G/B information and algorithms from the light metering system to improve phase based (reflex viewing)  autofocus performance.

Hi Ellis,

Indeed. The relatively simple optical system for the phase detect sensors is most likely to exhibit different focal planes depending on the wavelength of light. It is not likely that there is a significant correction for longitudinal chromatic aberration (LCA) without a means to estimate the color. Possibly the additional R/G/B information is used to compensate for that.

A lens with significant LCA can exacerbate the difficulty of the task even further, since phase detect based AF systems use the wide open aperture image, which is where the phenomenon is most manifest.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: July 16, 2012, 11:55:40 am by BartvanderWolf »
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LesPalenik

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Re: Fine Focus Tuning
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2012, 12:13:05 pm »

Bart,

To get the most precision, would you recommend one type of lighting over another?
Or if one shoots primarily in the day light, should be also the calibration done in daylight?

Les
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Fine Focus Tuning
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2012, 02:02:20 pm »

Bart,

To get the most precision, would you recommend one type of lighting over another?
Or if one shoots primarily in the day light, should be also the calibration done in daylight?

Hi Les,

I would try and reduce as many variables as possible, so yes. Of course when you use an LCD display for the moiré target, then it may already be set for 6500K.

Once calibration has been done, one can try to focus under markedly different light conditions and see if it make a difference, just to make sure if it is an issue with a specific camera/lens combination.

Cheers,
Bart
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Ligament

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Re: Fine Focus Tuning
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2012, 12:10:52 am »

Bart, thank you for your moire AF fine tune system.

For a Nikon 28-70 2.8 and D800E, at which focal length would you recommend for fine tuning using your target?

Thank you!
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Fine Focus Tuning
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2012, 04:17:35 am »

Bart, thank you for your moire AF fine tune system.

For a Nikon 28-70 2.8 and D800E, at which focal length would you recommend for fine tuning using your target?

You're welcome. In general I'd fine-tune at the longer focal length, because it has the least Depth of Field and thus is most critical. However, if there happens to be a huge difference in required adjustments between the different focal lengths of a zoom lens, then perhaps an average would be more appropriate. Just check at different zoom settings to see if there is such a difference in your lens.

It also depends on how one uses the zoom lens. Often the zoom lenses are perdominantly used at the two extremes of the focal length range, or mostly at the wide end (WA zooms), or mostly at the long end (tele zooms). Let your particular way of working be the guide to prioritization. If you use the full range, and there is too much of a difference between zoom settings, maybe an official service center calibration can reduce the spread, which will allow to use one average fine-tune setting for everything.

Cheers,
Bart
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allegretto

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Re: Fine Focus Tuning
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2012, 10:44:23 pm »

Great info!

Which way do you bias? Front focus, back focus or in the middle. Personally I go for a 1:2 ratio front to back just because I'm usually taking pictures of people and sometimes the focus falls on the most anterior feature

But with the wealth of knowledge/experience here I'm interested to hear what you think...
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Fine Focus Tuning
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2012, 04:43:29 am »

Great info!

Which way do you bias? Front focus, back focus or in the middle. Personally I go for a 1:2 ratio front to back just because I'm usually taking pictures of people and sometimes the focus falls on the most anterior feature

But with the wealth of knowledge/experience here I'm interested to hear what you think...

Depending on the shooting distance, usually middle. You can check with a decent DOF tool, at much shorter distances than the hyperfocal distance for the wide open aperture, the DOF distribution is close to e.g. 49/51 anyway. Besides, there will still be some variation around the average you'll set, so it seems best to have the camera focus where you point it at.

Of couse that is a basis from which one can deviate depending on the scenario, and one can allways dial in deliberate front or back focus.

Cheers,
Bart
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