Topic: Kayaking and Canoeing (Read 5853 times)

Bert Reimer · « **on:** June 11, 2012, 04:37:06 pm »

I used to have a Pentax W60 which was great because accidental dunks weren't a problem, but image quality was a problem. That camera has since died so I am asking what you use. A waterproof camera and the loss of IQ that goes with it or a "real" camera in some sort of waterproof bag/enclosure which only comes out as needed.

LesPalenik · « **Reply #1 on:** June 11, 2012, 05:13:43 pm »

About thirty years ago, I flipped my first canoe and submerged a small Nikon. The following weekend, I upgraded both the canoe and the camera, took a white water course and didn't flip a loaded canoe since then. Though, I swam many times downriver after the overturned canoe without the camera.

I like to paddle a 16-18 ft canoe. A bigger boat with a round or V-shaped bottom is more stable than a boat with a single keel or even those three-keel wonders (especially on a swift river or rough waves on a lake). Smaller boats tend to be more tippy. Pay attention also to even weight distribution, and avoid partners over 250 lbs.

Nowadays, I use both, the Pelican cases and whitewater waterproof bags. Fortunately, I never had to test the waterproofness of the cases. It depends if are just carrying your gear to your destination spot, or if you plan to shoot from the boat, and need the cameras ready.

When kayaking, I strap the Pelican case on the deck in front of me.
In a canoe, I carry usually several Pelican cases in front of me, plus a tripod. Also a medium-size cooler, which, if stays upright, would also protect its contents.

kencameron · « **Reply #2 on:** June 11, 2012, 05:26:21 pm »

I lost my first digital camera 10 or so years ago, a Nikon P-something which I loved, while trying to climb out of a canoe on the shore of Tuross Lake, around here. Since, I have used waterproof cameras and paid the not insiginificant IQ penalty and never even come close to getting one wet, except when I have intentionally dipped them in to get an underwater or half submerged shot. I currently have a Sony Cyber-Shot TX-10, a pretty little thing with an excessive 16 megapixels, that lives in the front pocket of my lifejacket. I mostly paddle a small, fat, slow canoe that is very stable so it works well for fishing as well as photography and that weighs only 17kg so I can get it on and off my car easily.

LesPalenik · « **Reply #3 on:** June 11, 2012, 05:38:08 pm »

Quote

I mostly paddle a small, fat, slow canoe that is very stable so it works well for fishing as well as photography and that weighs only 17kg so I can get it on and off my car easily.

17kg is a dream weight, great for putting it on a car and for paddling on calm waters. My old Mad River Explorer, after having added some whitewater essentials, weighs over 80 lbs. In the water, you don't feel its weight, but when heaving up on the car or on a portage, very much so.

Although those small, fat canoes with flat bottom have a good "initial stability", they can overturn easily in waves (even in a wake caused by a nearby motor boat).

Bert Reimer · « **Reply #4 on:** June 11, 2012, 06:00:54 pm »

Thanks for the info. So far we haven't dumped our canoe, but with my wife and 2 other kids plus me in the canoe and another in the kayak, theres usually water flying around!
On a slightly different topic, how much IQ do you lose shooting through an "affordable" underwater case?
I guess I should mention that my Ricoh GX100 is on its last legs so my 1500 bucks I have available this year needs to get me a camera/lens and whatever basic accessories I need before this years camping season.

AFairley · « **Reply #5 on:** June 11, 2012, 06:18:35 pm »

You could look around for one of the Canon Powershot Sxxx series cameras and an underwater housing. IQ is first rate for a point and shoot, and the housings are compact enough so that you can carry them around without awkwardness when you're off the water. If you are looking for somewhat better IQ, full manual control, RAW, etc., look at the Powershot S90/95/100, there are housings for them too. The housings for all the powershots are generally around $200 I believe, turn up for less used on eBay. Amazon is selling the S100, housing and spare battery for around $600. The housing also is great to protect the camera if you are going to have the camera on a strap and it is banging around on stuff.

LesPalenik · « **Reply #6 on:** June 11, 2012, 08:10:03 pm »

I have taken some pictures with Canon A90 and their waterproof housing, but I found the operation a little bit awkward and the results in northern lakes less than spectacular.
Clear water, but no colorful reefs or fish. All the color is on the surface.

John Camp · « **Reply #7 on:** June 12, 2012, 01:07:10 am »

When I was younger, I solo-paddled a 17-foot Peter Pond canoe from Lake Itasca (the source of the Mississippi) some 2400 miles to New Orleans. I never rolled it, or even came close, despite some pretty hefty thunderstorms and the six-foot backwash from river towboats (and the fact that the canoe was considered fairly radically sleek for its time.) Controlling a canoe isn't hard, if you do a little training. I also took my two young kids and wife on some substantial trips in the Boundary Waters, without incident. My feeling is, that is the normal course of events. Rolling a canoe is a severe accident (unless you're deliberately courting it, by running whitewater.) An acquaintance of mine rolled a canoe right after ice-out in the Boundary Waters, and died of hypothermia; the general judgment of his friends and enemies alike was that what he'd been doing (using an antique side-mount motor) was stupid...

All of this to say that if you have sensitive equipment it's probably wise to waterproof it during travel, which can be done with a relatively inexpensive whitewater bag. Or, if you don't want to do that, some big Ziplocks can do the job, but don't last. But, don't be afraid to take the camera out, either, and without protection. Tell the kids to stop splashing around while you're shooting (my kids were as raucous as any, but they learned to pay attention in canoes -- a real necessity for safe travel.) If I were you, and on your budget, I'd buy a m4/3 camera and a couple of lenses, like the 14-45 and the 45-200, which would give you good high-quality shots in a compact kit, with the 35mm-equivalent reach of 28-400mm. (I never found ultra wides to be of that much use in a canoe. Your mileage may vary.)

Don't trust "stable" canoes. They can be treacherous. They will stay flat, flat, flat and then boom! they flip over. A "tippy" canoe with a rounder bottom profile can often be tipped (if you're kneeling in the bottom) until the rail almost touches the water, without going over.

kencameron · « **Reply #8 on:** June 12, 2012, 02:57:31 am »

Quote from: LesPalenik on June 11, 2012, 05:38:08 pm

Although those small, fat canoes with flat bottom have a good "initial stability", they can overturn easily in waves (even in a wake caused by a nearby motor boat).

Not my experience with this one. It has been through plenty of waves, both natural and from passing boats, and I have tested its limits by deliberately tipping it. But then, it doesn't have a particularly flat bottom.

NancyP · « **Reply #9 on:** June 12, 2012, 04:18:05 am »

Great thread. I have been contemplating learning to kayak to reach oxbow islands and sandbars in the shallows of the Mississippi, Missouri, and Illinois Rivers for birding. I would like to be able to take a light birding telephoto in a waterproof floatable case and also strap on a tripod in a waterproof bag, for use on land or mudflat. I take it that Pelican is the standard waterproof floatation case - I see them in the boating/camping/hunting stores.

LesPalenik · « **Reply #10 on:** June 12, 2012, 05:32:07 am »

I find Pelican cases ideal for canoe tripping. They are sturdy in boat or on the land, waterproof, and you can open and close them them quickly and easily, even with one hand. The whitewater waterproof bags are cheaper, but more complicated to open or close. One possible problem with the hard cases is, that many cameras and lenses are quite heavy, and if you put them into a small Pelican case, the whole case can sink. It is always better to buy a larger case, and test it out fully loaded.

If you want to protect the camera only for the journey, and won't shoot from the boat, you can even rig up a waterproof enclosure from a couple of garbage bags and a canvass bag on the outside.

Petrus · « **Reply #11 on:** June 12, 2012, 07:05:13 am »

Quote from: NancyP on June 12, 2012, 04:18:05 am

Great thread. I have been contemplating learning to kayak to reach oxbow islands and sandbars in the shallows of the Mississippi, Missouri, and Illinois Rivers for birding. I would like to be able to take a light birding telephoto in a waterproof floatable case and also strap on a tripod in a waterproof bag, for use on land or mudflat. I take it that Pelican is the standard waterproof floatation case - I see them in the boating/camping/hunting stores.

Before committing to buying a kayak do some test runs with a canoe, sit-on-top kayak and a real touring kayak. You might find that shooting from and even trying to store normal sized photo gear in a real kayak is difficult and holding your balance when turning around with a long lens is difficult or even impossible (or I am just not experienced enough). A canoe is much easier and safer in this respect. And it there is a place where you can put your paddle without a danger of it falling off... It is also vastly easier to get on and off the vessel even on muddy shores.

We used to hold "canoe camps" with our kids about ten years ago for about 5 years running, and even with 2 adults, 6 kids aged 6 to 15, 2 shepherd dogs (and a kitten once...) and a weeks worth of camping supplies in two or three canoes (first 16 & 17 foot Mad River Explorer/Duck Hunter, later a 14' Mad River Guide also, modified as a kid's tandem canoe) we, or the dogs, never managed to tip them over.

Ken Bennett · « **Reply #12 on:** June 12, 2012, 08:56:08 am »

There are plenty of good sit-on-top kayaks out there that are made for kayak fishing. They generally have plenty of storage space, amazing primary stability, and can handle a heavy load. Yeah, they tend to be heavy and aren't the fastest boats in the water, but as a photo-gear load hauler or a shooting platform, they work pretty well. Also, they aren't expensive.

My boat is a 16-foot Wilderness Systems Tarpon, which you'll see all over the coast of Florida as an open water fishing boat. The length gives it some speed, so I can keep up with my wife in her sleek little touring kayak. It'll carry a ton of camping and photo gear and remain stable and easy to paddle even fully loaded. A set of thigh straps and a good paddle make it a fun experience if you've had any real kayak training (which I recommend -- even a 3-day intro to whitewater course will provide useful lessons for a lifetime.) There are 12- and 14-foot Tarpons, too, and the newer boats have more storage space. The only real downside is getting the thing on the top of my car, as it's quite heavy.

If you don't have a boat, and aren't decided between a kayak and a canoe, then I would second the canoe suggestion -- I shot several assignments years ago using a canoe, and it was much easier to shoot from and carried a lot more stuff than a kayak.

I've been carrying my "real" cameras in a drybag inside a hatch, and using a waterproof Pentax while paddling (with mediocre results,) so I'm happy to see some suggestions on this thread. Thinking about a small Pelican case to hold a m4/3 body with a normal zoom, and see how that works strapped somewhere that I can reach it.

NancyP · « **Reply #13 on:** June 12, 2012, 10:20:50 am »

Yes, I intend to take some courses from the local river wilderness and canoe/kayak groups. I also need to find another birding boater for safety's sake.

I am familiar with canoes on calm rivers (mostly the Current River in the Ozarks Mark Twain Natl Forest, a favorite destination of St. Louisans and other Missourians), but still a novice. I am not ambitious about speed or difficulty rating, and ease of use and stability are big pluses, as is the ability to take one other paddler on occasion. I haven't kayaked, but thought I might give it a try. There is a definite appeal to having a boat that is easy to store and can be transported by one person. I am an average height woman with a small car that takes a roof rack, with a single garage space. On the other hand, there are canoe liveries and river bank storage areas for canoes and trailers (micro-marinas?). I might be best off just getting a hitch on the Subaru (or maybe Toyota RAV4) I am buying in the next year to replace my faithful 16 year old Subaru Impreza Outback.

I have lived in the St. Louis area for 20 years but just now woke up to the existence of the riverine ecology. An amazing variety of birds pass by the area along the river flyways, and there is a vast amount of Army Corps of Engineers flood lands and state and federal fish and wildlife reserves, much of which is hunter-free.

fike · « **Reply #14 on:** June 12, 2012, 01:03:40 pm »

I use small hard sided boxes to contain my camera or a larger dry bag in which I put my camera bag. The key is to securely attach it to the canoe. I took a swim last year and my 7D kit floated downstream securely attached to the the canoe. The best way to ensure your photo box/bag stays with the canoe is to mount d-rings to the floor of the canoe and attach it to them with straps. Something like this would work.

http://www.nrsweb.com/shop/product.asp?pfid=2098&pdeptid=1215

You could strap these boxes to the thwart, but that makes it hard to access while under-way and it also makes it possible that when the boat is overturned that the gear will flip around and drag in the water (scraping against rocks).

As for kayak hatches: there is no such thing as a dry hatch. They will all get wet eventually. Plan for it.

Colorado David · « **Reply #15 on:** June 12, 2012, 01:35:54 pm »

The practical nature of the canoe has been overshadowed by the popularity of the kayak. In my opinion canoes are far better better at carrying heavy loads. I have often paddled my canoe in the leaned position to shorten the waterline and increase speed. Unfortunately, I'm in the market for a new canoe. A spring storm blew a heavy branch out of one of my oak trees and crushed my canoe. I had taken the seats, thwarts and decks out, getting ready to replace the gunwales so it was pretty vulnerable. It might have survived if it had the extra strength of gunwales and thwarts. I had my eye on a cedar canoe made in Canada, but it is gone now. Still looking. I have photographed from my fly fishing float tube, but feel my gear is more secure in the canoe.

John Camp · « **Reply #16 on:** June 12, 2012, 05:45:38 pm »

NancyP,

The Mississippi between St. Louis and cairo is an amazing place. There are gorgeous white sand beaches that stretch for miles, all kinds of backwaters and sloughs, the most amazing kinds of wildlife. You could spend a lifetime down there and not use it up. You should know that the Corps of Engineers has very large-scale maps of the entire river, so you pin down where you're at at any moment, and see what's ahead. (A GPS is very useful, too.) A couple of cautions: in areas of the Mississippi, Missouri (and Platte, if you ever go to Nebraska) can have stretches of what look like sandbars, but are actually quicksand. Quicksand is just supersaturated sand, but it can be bad stuff -- you can actually paddle into it, and get stuck in it, like getting stuck in syrup. And, the towboats are dangerous. You never want to get stuck in the outside corner of a riverbend when a towboat is going upstream around the bend: the back wash from those powerful engines can wreck your boat by pounding it against the bank. The wake waves can be higher than your head, and very narrowly spaced. So, you have to be careful about towboats. Also, the backwaters and sloughs have copperheads, water moccasins and (I've been told) diamondback rattlesnakes. I saw two moccasins, but no rattlesnakes or copperheads. If you want to see what some of those white sand beaches look like, you can go to Google maps, Perryville, Mo, slide over to the river in satellite view, and then scan up and down the river....

KevinA · « **Reply #17 on:** June 13, 2012, 10:44:34 am »

I took a 1DsIII snorkelling with one of these (http://www.camerasunderwater.co.uk/ewa-slr), the pictures were rubbish but that was down to me being useless. The bag never let in a drop. No reason you could not use it above water.

Kevin.

stpf8 · « **Reply #18 on:** June 13, 2012, 01:36:30 pm »

Kayaks with a cockpit (i.e., not sit-on-tops) are difficult because of the limited space and the small cockpit diameter. I chose an Eddyline Wind Dancer, the equivalent of a pickup truck in boat terms, partly because the cockpit was relative large. I kept a camera between my legs in a rolled-up dry bag that would keep everything dry, at least for a short period of time, if I were to ever capsize. Fortunately, that was never put to the test, and I greatly appreciated having a good camera within easy reach that I could use frequently.

Most of my boating is done on the very muddy Missouri River in central Montana, and getting in and out of a kayak, especially with camera equipment, was very difficult because of the mud. I traded the kayak for a single canoe, and I couldn't be happier. I can hold way more equipment for week-long trips, getting in and out of the boat is much easier, and I haul two camera systems in a couple of Pelican cases that I keep in easy reach from my center seat. For me, it works perfectly and is worry-free.

NancyP · « **Reply #19 on:** June 13, 2012, 03:11:11 pm »

John Camp: Wow! That stretch of the Mississippi near Perryville looks great on google map.
I have a healthy respect for tugboats, as I grew up in Cincinnati and lived at one point overlooking the Ohio River. The river is twisty just east of downtown Cincinnati, and just downstream are several bridges on slightly gentler curves. Seeing as how it takes 0.5 to 1 mile to stop a 5 long, 3 wide tugboat load, I would like to be as far away from them and their wake as possible. I imagine that the Army Corps of Engineers charts would be essential, as the idea is to stay out of the shipping channel.
One floodplain bluffs area I want to see is the "Little Grand Canyon" south of Chester IL on the IL side. It has nothing to do with canoes, but is said to be beautiful. Three cheers for the "60 hikes in 60 miles" (name of city) series, it gives many ideas for day trips.

Author Topic: Kayaking and Canoeing (Read 5853 times)