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Author Topic: D800 hyperbole  (Read 39650 times)

marcmccalmont

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Re: D800 hyperbole
« Reply #60 on: March 22, 2012, 08:56:30 pm »

For what it's worth, Amazon lists D800 as #1 selling camera currently. Where is Canon 5Dm3?... 16th place!
Many of us were hoping for a 5DIII with a sensor that would compete with the best of Sony's. Because of this disappointment many are switching to Nikon arguably a better camera and definitely a better sensor. In 3 years with a 5DIII I'd be shooting with a sensor using 6 year old technology, with the D800 it will only be 3 year old technology. I'm willing to pay $1000/year for the latest sensor technology but Canon wants me to pay $1,167/ year for what? No wonder the sales for the D800 are so good.
Marc
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Marc McCalmont

BJL

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Re: D800 hyperbole
« Reply #61 on: March 22, 2012, 10:01:44 pm »

For what it's worth, Amazon lists D800 as #1 selling camera currently. Where is Canon 5Dm3?... 16th place!
Those Amazon sales numbers can show some curious spikes ... Maybe a burst of pre-orders that are easy to cancel has been driven by multiple recent favorable stories about the D800 on a little photographic site owned by Amazon: DPreview. The Olympus OM-D E-M5 had some stunning Amazon rankings after its recent favorable DPreview coverage too.

Still, I am not disputing the widespread sentiment that Nikon is producing impressive, inovative new products while Canon has become a complacent market leader, just "punching the clock" on some its recent products.
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ndevlin

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Re: D800 hyperbole
« Reply #62 on: March 22, 2012, 10:41:53 pm »


Amazon or not, I will say this, the same file of the ubiquitous DPREVIEW still-life had me sit up and pay attention....
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Nick Devlin   @onelittlecamera        ww

dreed

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Re: D800 hyperbole
« Reply #63 on: March 23, 2012, 12:15:34 am »

Many of us were hoping for a 5DIII with a sensor that would compete with the best of Sony's. Because of this disappointment many are switching to Nikon arguably a better camera and definitely a better sensor. In 3 years with a 5DIII I'd be shooting with a sensor using 6 year old technology, with the D800 it will only be 3 year old technology. I'm willing to pay $1000/year for the latest sensor technology but Canon wants me to pay $1,167/ year for what? No wonder the sales for the D800 are so good.
Marc

This pretty much covers me but what I'd like to know more about the D800 and its lens requirements before I start splashing around with cash. $3000 for a camera, ok. But if it's $10,000 for camera+stuff, I'll think again. I suspect that it won't be $10,000 but that it will be more than $3000.
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Ray

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Re: D800 hyperbole
« Reply #64 on: March 23, 2012, 01:17:10 am »

I know it is not the point, but for the sake of historical correctnes, VR was in fact released in a Nikon compact camera first and was later followed by Canon in DSLR lenses.

Cheers,
Bernard


Was this the Nikon Zoom 700VR QD 35mm film compact camera released in 1994, Bernard?

If so, Canon gave us the first image-stabilised zoom lens for the SLR just a year later, the EF 70-300/F4.5-5.6 IS USM. It took Nikon another 5 years to produce their first VR zoom for an SLR, the 80-400/F4.5-5.6 D, in 2000. That was rather slack of Nikon, don't you think?  ;D

They lagged behind Canon to the same degree regarding full-frame DSLRs. Canon produced the 11mp 1Ds in 2002. 5 years later Nikon announced its first full-frame DSLR, the D3 with only 12mp.

But that's history. I think Nikon have truly caught up with Canon; even streaked ahead.

I don't know if VR II is better than the latest Canon IS, but the claimed 4 stop shutter speed advantage is really impressive. If there's no movement in the scene, one should be able to use a shutter speed as slow as 1/6th sec with a 100mm VR lens as opposed to 1/100th without VR. That's a huge advantage. Who needs a tripod! (Okay! I know you still need one for really slow shutter speeds on a moonlit night  ;D ).

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ErikKaffehr

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Re: D800 hyperbole
« Reply #65 on: March 23, 2012, 01:42:59 am »

Hi,

I now have a Sony Alpha 77 SLT a 24 MP APS-C camera. In full frame this would correspond to 54 MP. With that camera I can see that some lenses don't keep up, but some do quite fine. The 16-80/3.5-4.5 normal zoom seems to keep up fine but 70-300/3.5-4.5 APO zoom seems to "fall apart" at longer focal lengths, but that lens didn't really impress on the other cameras either.

I general, I would presume that good lenses are OK at high pixel densities. Indeed some experiments I have may indicate that resolution (LP/mm at 50% MTF as measured by Imatest) scales perfectly with pixel pitch. This test was done on the optical axis, corner figures are probably much worse.

I'd aslo suggest that extracting all available resolution from a sensor/lens combination requires careful and precise work. Exact focusing, camera on solid tripod, mirror lock up or mirrorless camera and electronic camera release.

The final point may be that the sensor outresolving the lens is not a bad thing. If that happens the sensor simple oversamples the image. We get smoother edges with no jaggies, no aliasing and so on.

Best regards
Erik

The pixel density of the D800 is the same as the D7000 and did people suggest that new glass was needed for that camera? These comments come every time a new camera with more megapixels comes around and especially full frame. I remember how the Canon 1Ds mkIII would stress even L-glass according to some reviewers and having in mind that the pixel density is like the old 20D APS-C sensor :) And nobody suggested new glass for that one. Of course there is always the question about sharpness in corners and edges but the lack of sharpness on some glass in these areas will be stressed also by lesser resolving sensors like e.g. the D700 or 5D.
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Ray

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Re: D800 hyperbole
« Reply #66 on: March 23, 2012, 02:39:52 am »

This pretty much covers me but what I'd like to know more about the D800 and its lens requirements before I start splashing around with cash. $3000 for a camera, ok. But if it's $10,000 for camera+stuff, I'll think again. I suspect that it won't be $10,000 but that it will be more than $3000.

Just a few days ago, walking along a beach in Thailand, I came across a few Rhesus monkeys splashing around in their favourite swimming pool.

I was carrying my D7000 with 24-120/F4 zoom attached. I really needed a zoom with a reach of at least 400mm, which would have been 600mm equivalent on the D7000. Nevertheless, I took a few shots with zoom lens set at 120mm, F8 and 1/500th exposure.

Curious as to how sharp such distant images would appear when severely cropped, considering that this lens is not at its sharpest fully extended and not at its sharpest at F8,  I cropped the following image to 2.4MB, which is the equivalent of an image from a 0.8mp sensor of dimensions 5.4mmx3.6mm, using the equivalent of an 800mm lens in 35mm format terms.

As mentioned by others, the D7000 has the same pixel density as the D800, so I can presume that this crop would be similarly as sharp had I been using a D800 with this lens instead of the D7000.

In relation to the D800, I calculate the crop factor of this 2.4MB image to be about 6.7x. (6.7 x 120mm = 804mm).

The crop looks reasonably sharp to me. What do you think?

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Ray

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Re: D800 hyperbole
« Reply #67 on: March 23, 2012, 04:27:14 am »

I forgot to mention the ISO of the above image. Before some of you comment that there is noticeable noise in that 100% crop representing detail at the pixel level similar to what I deduce the D800 would produce, the shot was considerably underexposed at ISO 100.

If I had increased ISO to get an ETTR shot at that shutter speed and aperture, I estimate from the histogram in ACR it would be at least ISO 800. What do you think?

So what we are looking at here is a simulation of a small P&S sensor, smaller than average, with fairly massive pixels for a P&S (just 0.8mp covering a sensor area of about 5.4mmx3.6mm) and a massive telephoto reach of 800mm in 35mm format terms. Furthermore, to achieve the shutter speed of 1/500th necessary to freeze motion, and to get the benefit of a good DoF that F8 provides at the 800mm FL equivalence, an ISO of 800 was required.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 04:45:26 am by Ray »
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marcmccalmont

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Re: D800 hyperbole
« Reply #68 on: March 23, 2012, 06:47:09 am »

This pretty much covers me but what I'd like to know more about the D800 and its lens requirements before I start splashing around with cash. $3000 for a camera, ok. But if it's $10,000 for camera+stuff, I'll think again. I suspect that it won't be $10,000 but that it will be more than $3000.
Well I invested in 2 Leica R's for the anticipated increased resolution in the 5DIII so just a couple of adapters and I'm set (got lucky on this decision), I already have a Nikkor 14-24 for the wide stuff I'll just remove the adapter!
saved myself $200 ordering the D800E instead of the 5DIII and got 2 extra stops of DR and 14,000,000 more photosites!
Marc
« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 07:46:56 am by marcmccalmont »
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Marc McCalmont

BernardLanguillier

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Re: D800 hyperbole
« Reply #69 on: March 23, 2012, 08:00:18 am »

saved myself $200 ordering the D800E instead of the 5DIII and got 2 extra stops of DR and 14,000,000 more photosites!

Assuming that Nikon gets any close to being able to produce the tremendous number of bodies the market seems to be expecting and that the retailers play fair with us...  ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

eleanorbrown

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Re: D800 hyperbole
« Reply #70 on: March 23, 2012, 10:08:35 am »

As a very long time Canon user I think the so called upgrade to the 5D2 to the 5D3 is pathetic and I am seriously considering switching over to Nikon... What in the world was Canon thinking??? Eleanor

Many of us were hoping for a 5DIII with a sensor that would compete with the best of Sony's. Because of this disappointment many are switching to Nikon arguably a better camera and definitely a better sensor. In 3 years with a 5DIII I'd be shooting with a sensor using 6 year old technology, with the D800 it will only be 3 year old technology. I'm willing to pay $1000/year for the latest sensor technology but Canon wants me to pay $1,167/ year for what? No wonder the sales for the D800 are so good.
Marc
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Eleanor Brown
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32BT

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Re: D800 hyperbole
« Reply #71 on: March 23, 2012, 10:30:39 am »

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ndevlin

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Re: D800 hyperbole
« Reply #72 on: March 23, 2012, 11:01:14 am »


Canon is so asleep at the switch right now that it's not even funny.  While Nikon effects a paradigm shift of photography with the D800, Canon is still trying to convince their customers that they've finally fixed three year-old focusing problems.  Ouch.

Maybe the have something up their sleaves. But given their corporate attitude, I wouldn't count on it. 

- N.
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Nick Devlin   @onelittlecamera        ww

eleanorbrown

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Re: D800 hyperbole
« Reply #73 on: March 23, 2012, 11:28:12 am »

For what it's worth (or not worth??)...just noticed that the Nikon D800 now stands at the top of all sensor ratings (incl. above the Phase IQ180) at DXOMark. Eleanor
« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 11:32:47 am by eleanorbrown »
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Eleanor Brown
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dreed

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Re: D800 hyperbole
« Reply #74 on: March 23, 2012, 12:14:31 pm »

For what it's worth (or not worth??)...just noticed that the Nikon D800 now stands at the top of all sensor ratings (incl. above the Phase IQ180) at DXOMark. Eleanor

Yes, and the dxomark website seems to have slowed to a crawl as every man and his dog goes to check it out ;)

But a score of 14.1 EV for landscape... wow. If I'd been silly enough to pre-order the 5DIII, I'd be cancelling.
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nairb

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Re: D800 hyperbole
« Reply #75 on: March 23, 2012, 12:24:34 pm »

"Canon is so asleep at the switch right now that it's not even funny.  While Nikon effects a paradigm shift of photography with the D800, Canon is still trying to convince their customers that they've finally fixed three year-old focusing problems.  Ouch."

I don't know, it seems to me that both Canon and Nikon, with these two cameras, tried to address the desires of their customers. It seems to me that Canon 5DII users rarely complained about resolution and frequently complained about autofocus, and fps speed. Many D700 users, and pretty much all other Nikon users have a seriously pent up demand for a high resolution camera since the 1dsII was announced (was this 2004?), and for an affordable one since the 5dII announcement. I suspect this is the real reason there is so much interest in the D800 at the moment. Many of the 5dII users that were content with their camera purely for it's resolution perhaps still are. Hence the apparent lower demand to upgrade.

I use Nikon and have ordered a D800e because I print and sell large landscape prints and currently use a D3. But I live in and sell my prints in a ski town and so I shoot a fair bit of what I'll call "sportscapes" where both high resolution and shooting speed are handy. Too me, although the D800 will be nice, I could have been very happy with a more all round camera like the 5dIII seems to be.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 12:34:04 pm by nairb »
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: D800 hyperbole
« Reply #76 on: March 23, 2012, 01:31:24 pm »

I forgot to mention the ISO of the above image. Before some of you comment that there is noticeable noise in that 100% crop representing detail at the pixel level similar to what I deduce the D800 would produce, the shot was considerably underexposed at ISO 100...

Ray, that is incredibly impressive, i.e., the sensor ability to pull out so much detail in so underexposed areas (eyes and mouth in particular)!

On a related note, seems to me that in the future (and not so distant) it won't really matter if we exposed correctly (bar blown highlights) or even focused correctly (Lytro technology). It won't even matter if we composed correctly (the CS6 content-aware move etc.). The future will turn the century old "f/8 and be there" into 10% of that and 90 % of a new paradigm: "look ma what I made from this crappy file!" In other words, photographers will become photoshoppographers™ :-\
« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 03:13:47 pm by Slobodan Blagojevic »
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eleanorbrown

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Re: D800 hyperbole
« Reply #77 on: March 23, 2012, 01:42:13 pm »

Forgive my ignorance here.... but how can this new Nikon CMOS sensor out perform a medium format CCD sensor like that in the IQ180 which is supposed to have "better ?" pixels??  I'm really curious, being the owner of the Phase P65+, which it also beat in the new DXO tests... I'm wondering if the D800 and D800e will have creamy smooth files at base iso like medium format sensors too.....thanks, Eleanor

Yes, and the dxomark website seems to have slowed to a crawl as every man and his dog goes to check it out ;)

But a score of 14.1 EV for landscape... wow. If I'd been silly enough to pre-order the 5DIII, I'd be cancelling.
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Eleanor Brown
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Ray

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Re: D800 hyperbole
« Reply #78 on: March 23, 2012, 02:00:27 pm »

For the benefit of those who are having trouble connecting to the DXO results, or who are not familiar with the site, I'll provide a brief summary of what I've found so far.

(1) The D800 pixel has very similar performance to the D7000 pixel in terms of SNR at 18% grey (skin tones), Dynamic Range, Tonal Range, and Color Sensitivity, as predicted and as assumed in my arguments relating to my D7000 images above.

At equal print size, the D800 is of course better in all parameters.

(2) Compared with the D3s at equal print size, the D3s still retains the low-noise-at-high-ISO title. Above ISO 1600, the D3s has better DR by amounts ranging from 0.4EV to almost 1EV at ISO 12,800 and 25,600, at equal print size.

However, the 0.4EV DR advantage of the D3s at ISO 3200 and 6400 is not nearly as significant as the 2 &1/3rd stop DR advantage of the D800 at its base ISO of 100, compared with the DR of the D3s at its base of ISO 200.

(3) At equal print size, the D800 outstrips the D700 in every respect. SNR is over one stop better at base ISO, and about one stop better at ISO 12,800 and 25,600.
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Ray

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Re: D800 hyperbole
« Reply #79 on: March 23, 2012, 02:39:45 pm »

Ray, that is incredibly impressive, i.e., the sensor ability to pull out so much detail in so underexposed areas (eyes and mouth in particular)!

Well, thank you, Slobodan. I sometimes wonder how these images might appear on a well-calibrated monitor, because I'm processing them on a Dell notebook, because I'm currently travelling.


Quote
On a related note, seems to me that in the future (and so distant) it won't really matter if we exposed correctly (bar blown highlights) or even focused correctly (Lytro technology). It won't even matter if we composed correctly (the CS6 content-aware move etc.). The future will turn the century old "f/8 and be there" into 10% of that and 90 % of a new paradigm: "look ma what I made from this crappy file!" In other words, photographers will become photoshoppographers™ :-\ 


I think you might be right. I'm reminded that certain great painters of the past would sometimes make notes of what they saw when travelling, with regard to their impressions of color, detail and shape etc, then on return to their studio would refer to such notes when painting the scenes from memory.

I consider the RAW image to be an extremely detailed set of notes, and Photoshop a terrific paint brush, figuratively speaking.  ;D
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