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Author Topic: Old 5D versus new APS-C  (Read 7109 times)

lowep

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Old 5D versus new APS-C
« on: February 18, 2012, 06:26:31 am »

In the 6 years since Canon introduced the 5D has technology advanced far enough that the IQ of current generation aps-c cameras is just as good?
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Walter Schulz

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Re: Old 5D versus new APS-C
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2012, 07:02:35 am »

Do you own the 5D? If so, I would like to put the evaluation in your hand. Otherwise the famous can of worms might be opened.
12 bit vs. 14 bit
12 megapixel vs. 18
Sweet spot optics vs. full format's corner issues.
Able to keep a flame war alive for some time.
Therefore, if possible, rent a 7D or 60D and shoot some photos, examine them and decide.

Ciao, Walter
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Guillermo Luijk

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Re: Old 5D versus new APS-C
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2012, 07:25:15 am »

The only advantage of the old 5D over modern APS-C cameras is the format (FOV of 35mm lenses, shallow DOF). In all IQ parameters, the 5D is now and old fashioned device.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2012, 07:26:47 am by Guillermo Luijk »
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lowep

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Re: Old 5D versus new APS-C
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2012, 10:27:34 am »

Walter, you are right. I used to have a 5D and may buy one of the many APS-C cameras floating about today -- though probably not an 7D.

Thanks Guillermo for your expert answer. You have forgotten more about this stuff than I will ever learn so appreciate your frank assessment. 
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DeeJay

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Re: Old 5D versus new APS-C
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2012, 11:02:43 am »

I still use the old 5D occasionally. It has a certain look that I sometimes want.

It's still, despite it's age, is a very capable camera.
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stever

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Re: Old 5D versus new APS-C
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2012, 06:17:35 pm »

although my 5D has been replaced by a 5D2, i'd still take the 5D IQ over an APSC, particularly for wide angle.  however the lack of liveview and a few other modern touches limit the usefulness of the camera which is why i decided not to keep it even as a backup
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scooby70

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Re: Old 5D versus new APS-C
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2012, 07:10:38 pm »

After years with a 300D and then a 20D I recently got a 5D. For me although there is a slight improvement in image quality I'd say that after processing it's minimal and the main advantage is returning to 35mm field of view. I expected great improvements in higher ISO performance but after processing I'd say that the improvements aren't that great, less than a stop maybe, but I think that 5D images do hold up better under heavier processing. Another advantage is that 5D viewfinder is certainly bigger.

There are a few disadvantages, there's vignetting but that is relatively easy to correct, there's no built in flash and although the 5D is within a couple of mm of my 20D in all directions once a lens is added it's a bulkier and heavier package.

One other difference that I noticed very quickly, actually the first time I used the 5D, is that the wider field of view means that camera to subject distance needs to be reduced to get the same framing and that affects the depth of field (I think that it's important to remember that if you're using the same focal length and aperture the DoF isn't affected by the sensor size as such but by the reduced camera to subject distance as you move closer to get the composition that you want.) As the DoF may therefore be reduced you may end up using smaller apertures and that could have a knock on effect to shutter speeds and ISO settings.

On the general topic of image quality. Some time ago I had a little shoot off, my 20D+Siggy 50mm f1.4 against someone with a 5DII+L zoom and we both agreed that the 20D combo produced the better images. This annoyed the 5DII user no end  ;D I think that technique, choosing the right settings and processing carefully can close any equipment gap or even overcome it.
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JohnBrew

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Re: Old 5D versus new APS-C
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2012, 08:41:20 pm »

Just as in film, there are still artists who can achieve more from a digital file than others. And artistry still matters  :)

marcmccalmont

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Re: Old 5D versus new APS-C
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2012, 08:50:54 pm »

In the 6 years since Canon introduced the 5D has technology advanced far enough that the IQ of current generation aps-c cameras is just as good?

I owned an original 5D upgraded to the 5DII and have a Pentax K5
The K5 sensor is the best I would go for a camera with a Sony APSc sensor
Marc
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Marc McCalmont

lowep

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Re: Old 5D versus new APS-C
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2012, 05:24:00 am »

Just as in film, there are still artists who can achieve more from a digital file than others. And artistry still matters  :)

Henri Cartier Bresson was a great photographer. His work helped sell a lot of Leicas before he died aged 96 in 2004. I wonder how many opt for the X1 because of people like him? I almost did.

« Last Edit: February 19, 2012, 05:32:53 am by lowep »
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seanesopenko

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Re: Old 5D versus new APS-C
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2012, 02:09:57 pm »

I bought a 5D classic on the used market a while ago and used it for two years.  I like wide angles a lot and the wide angle lineup is so much better for full-frame cameras than any of the cropped sensors.  I picked up a Nex-5N out of curiosity (it was only $600 or so) and saw the image quality met or exceeded the 5D.  But the lens lineup wasn't that great meaning while I could get sharp images with some good tones I couldn't get them in the field of view I prefer.

If you like wide angle and want to build up a nice lens collection then I'd highly recommend a full frame camera.
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eronald

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Re: Old 5D versus new APS-C
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2012, 02:33:50 pm »

The 5D has an interesting "look". If you like that, you want one.

Edmund
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DaveCurtis

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Re: Old 5D versus new APS-C
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2012, 07:12:36 pm »

Also keep in mind that the 5D3 is rumored to be annouced over the next few days.

See Canon rumors "CR3"
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Ray

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Re: Old 5D versus new APS-C
« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2012, 02:51:15 am »

In the 6 years since Canon introduced the 5D has technology advanced far enough that the IQ of current generation aps-c cameras is just as good?

Your question specifically addresses IQ. As you probably know, the larger sensor has an inherent advantage regarding lower noise due to its greater light-gathering capability, all else being equal.

Of course, all else is rarely equal when comparing cameras. The more recent cropped-format cameras from Canon, such as the 50D, 7D and 60D, all seem to have a slight dynamic range advantage compared to the 5D, but only at low ISO's.

By ISO 800 the DR advantage has disappeared, and above ISO 800 the 5D has a slight DR advantage.

But what's interesting, according to DXOMark tests, is that the 5D still retains a slight IQ advantage in terms of SNR at 18% grey, Tonal Range and particularly Color Sensitivity at all ISO's. The fact that the 5D doesn't have an ISO setting beyond 3200 is only significant as regards the LCD review image, which will appear too dark when underexposing at ISO 3200.

So, in summary, I would say that the IQ of the current generation of Canon cropped-formats is, on the whole, not quite on a par with the 5D at equal print size.

http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Cameras/Compare-Camera-Sensors/Compare-cameras-side-by-side/(appareil1)/619%7C0/(brand)/Canon/(appareil2)/272%7C0/(brand2)/Canon/(appareil3)/176%7C0/(brand3)/Canon
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Keith Reeder

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Re: Old 5D versus new APS-C
« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2012, 02:21:10 pm »

So, in summary, I would say that the IQ of the current generation of Canon cropped-formats is, on the whole, not quite on a par with the 5D at equal print size.

Sorry, Ray - I've printed 5D and 7D files, and the 7D files are better across the board, at any ISO.
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Keith Reeder
Blyth, NE England

MatthewCromer

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Re: Old 5D versus new APS-C
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2012, 08:23:16 pm »

I bought a 5D classic on the used market a while ago and used it for two years.  I like wide angles a lot and the wide angle lineup is so much better for full-frame cameras than any of the cropped sensors.  I picked up a Nex-5N out of curiosity (it was only $600 or so) and saw the image quality met or exceeded the 5D.  But the lens lineup wasn't that great meaning while I could get sharp images with some good tones I couldn't get them in the field of view I prefer.

If you like wide angle and want to build up a nice lens collection then I'd highly recommend a full frame camera.

Hmmmn.  Just picked up the Sigma 8-16.  It is an awesome ultrawide, just about flawless.
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Ray

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Re: Old 5D versus new APS-C
« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2012, 09:22:46 pm »

Sorry, Ray - I've printed 5D and 7D files, and the 7D files are better across the board, at any ISO.

No need to apologise. Such results could be truly remarkable. You should provide full details, including methodology. I'm sure DXO would be very interested to learn that their testing may not be relevant to real-world results.

DXOMark testing would indicate that only shadow noise at ISO 400 and below would appearto be slightly better in the 7D. In all other parameter, at all ISO's, the 5D has slightly better image quality.

However, it's understood that an 18mp sensor is capable of delivering slightly higher resolution than a 12.7mp sensor, but this is also dependent on choice of lens and aperture. If one is using an EF-S lens on the cropped format, the advantage of better edge and corner resolution may disappear.

If one is striving for a shallow DoF requiring use of the lens at its maximum aperture, the 5D will likely produce a shallower DoF. If the lens used on the 7D has a sufficiently wide aperture to match the shallow DoF of the 5D, the 7D's resolution advantage will likely be completely negated because lenses at maximum aperture tend to deliver poorer resolution. The significantly denser pixel pitch of the 7D requires use of better lenses to deliver its potentially better resolution, not worse lenses.

Nevertheless, the 7D clearly has more advanced features than the 5D. I admit it is quite possible that in any critical comparison of the two cameras, the advantage of the Live View feature on the 7D, allowing for more accurate focussing, could give the impression the 7D is producing images which are consistently sharper at the plane of focus. But this is more an issue of technique and methodology, rather than fundamental image quality.

Another factor to take into consideration is that F/stop multiplier of 1.6x, required for equal DoF on the 7D. This works out to around 1&1/3 stops, or 1&1/2 stops wider aperture for the 7D, but my own tests comparing the 50D with my 5D indicate that in practice it can be closer to a 2 stop difference for close subjects, such as portraiture. In other words, one might need to use a lens at F3.2 or even F2.8 with the 7D to get the same DoF that the 5D produces at F5.6, using different focal lengths of lens of course to achieve the same FoV.
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