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Author Topic: coating for display with no glass  (Read 3605 times)

mstevensphoto

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coating for display with no glass
« on: February 04, 2012, 01:33:57 pm »

Hi all,
   I'm still on the fence with a cold laminator. this one http://www.drytac.com/finishing-equipment/roller-laminators/648mm-25-5-manual-laminator-drytac-magnetic-tape.html was recommended in an earlier thread and it is the right price for me. The rep from Coda assures me that the hand crank ones will be next to impossible to get a smooth lamination on anything bigger than an 8x10. I simply don't have $2k for one of their machines. so I have a couple of questions:

- how hard is it to get a perfect coating on a 20x30 with a hand crank laminator?
- does anyone think I can get a nice gloss coat if I did something like print on Optica One, then roll with Timeless and then spray another coat or two for the extra sheen?

I outsourced one of these last week and ended up with 4 redo's, one bubble in the laminate, the other three were printed less than how I'd want it....the worst part was that I went from the lovely Optica One to the much lower contrast Kodak paper on a lightjet.

many thanks
Mark
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bill t.

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Re: coating for display with no glass
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2012, 03:00:52 pm »

I feel your pain.  Bottom line...Glamour II, Timeless, Clearshield, and all those water based canvas coatings just aren't the right stuff for smooth print surfaces.

I often use gloss spray cans from Lowe's for quick proofing on canvas and once in a while on Canson Rag, and I have to say those finishes look absolutely terrific.  Very glossy, no veiling at all, and the snap is wonderful.  And very easy to apply super smooth coatings with just the crummy little plastic nozzles, or at least with the ones that have a fan pattern versus a circular pattern.  And the fumes will lead to brain death within 6 prints.

So I'm thinking we need something more like a solvent based gloss for matte papers, maybe even an enamel.  What are the long term consequences?  Dunno, but please don't anybody say I'm recommending Deft Gloss from Lowes, because you're on your own if you use that stuff.  I'm planning to look into some of the UV, solvent based canvas coatings out there.  I bet Dan knows a thing or two about this stuff.

Beyond that, the tiniest piece of dust or sliver of paint skin or any defect at all on a smooth glossy surface just trashes the whole piece aesthetically.  It's worse than facemount, which might actually be a better alternative if it's the deep-gloss look that you're after.

I have laminated a few 13x19's on manual roller presses over the years and don't recall issues with visible ripple.  The pros I have seen using those machines tend to run the pieces through relatively fast (compared to a motorized machine) so maybe inertia has something to do with it.  They also run the piece through several times starting from different sides.  I saw a cheap mechanical roller with a 10 pound weight lifting ring attached to the handle, maybe that helps when trying to go slow.

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Robcat

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Re: coating for display with no glass
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2012, 10:52:58 pm »

Well, you're certainly not going to get anywhere rolling coatings on smooth paper. It just doesn't go on anywhere near what anyone would like in terms of smoothness. You need to spray. Dan Berg, http://www.bergscanvasgallery.com/index.html has done some nice test prints for me using Clearjet on both Ilford Gold Fiber Silk and Harman/Hahnemuhle FB gloss baryta. But Dan has a cabinet maker's spray booth and guns. I'll let him tell you more details should he wish. Dan also laminates canvas, but don't know if he's done papers or not.
Rob P
www.porterartphotos.com
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Peter Le

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Re: coating for display with no glass
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2012, 11:05:59 pm »

    I don`t see why Timeless would not work fine.....but....why not call Breathing Color and ask Paul Morales their tech guy.......or ask him on their Blog. I have found them very helpful and honest when I have a question.......Peter
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Peter Le

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Re: coating for display with no glass
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2012, 11:13:05 pm »

Well, you're certainly not going to get anywhere rolling coatings on smooth paper. It just doesn't go on anywhere near what anyone would like in terms of smoothness. You need to spray. Dan Berg, http://www.bergscanvasgallery.com/index.html has done some nice test prints for me using Clearjet on both Ilford Gold Fiber Silk and Harman/Hahnemuhle FB gloss baryta. But Dan has a cabinet maker's spray booth and guns. I'll let him tell you more details should he wish. Dan also laminates canvas, but don't know if he's done papers or not.
Rob P
www.porterartphotos.com
        Not so........I have rolled this very paper.....but not with gloss. I do agree though that with gloss it would be better to spray a lot of fine coats......Peter
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tim wolcott

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Re: coating for display with no glass
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2012, 11:21:09 pm »

If your not to far away I'm selling one of coaters its 54 inches and it coats the whole thing at one time.  You just need to make sure you have a place to lay the print flat while it dries.  BUt works well.  Its true rolling just does not works well.  Best way is to coat it all at one time.  I live in California if you are interested.  Tim
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bill t.

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Re: coating for display with no glass
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2012, 12:37:29 am »

The canvas varnishes have always looked a little veiled to me, not perfectly 100% transparent.  And I have tried all the variations from many coats to 1 coat, from thick to thin, through special top coats, and everything in between.  It goes beyond surface characteristics, it's in the paint itself.

That veil may be a compromise that comes from having to maintain "stretchability" for wrapping.  For most canvas users that's the most important thing, and little else seems important when your corners are cracking.  But to my eye, the solvent based coatings are more transparent, and and seem lay down very easily on smooth surfaces with almost no fuss at all.

I need to do some more tests, of course!  But when I started seeing what those cheap solvent spray cans were doing for both my canvas and Canson Rag test strips, it gave me cause to think.

Of course, roll laminates also have a veiling effect, or at least the ones that I have seen, especially when viewed with light to my back.  So for my money, solvent sprays will probably give the best looking coating results, while being in all other ways pure evil.
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a.lorge

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Re: coating for display with no glass
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2012, 01:38:18 am »

Another option:  Cheap Motorized Chinese Laminator I purchased a laminator similar to this about 5 years ago and it's still going strong.  Hand cranked models are fine for mounting prints to boards, but if you are applying overlaminate films you definitely want to have a motor.  Moving the substrate at a consistent speed is important, and it's helpful to keep both your hands free.
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Johnny_Boy

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Re: coating for display with no glass
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2012, 03:14:41 am »

I would be careful about those cheap motorized Chinese laminator from eBay. I just purchased one, and the whole thing is really cheaply made. I am working with the seller (not the one posted above) on the issues at this moment. I've spent about 8 hours so far re-fabricating parts and retuning assembly, so it will work decently. I have machining equipment (lathe and mill), so I can fix things, but if you are not mechanically inclined, I would be careful. They are pretty sloppy. Now I know why Drytac and Seal machines cost so much. I will be looking into those units, once my business has enough cash flow.   

I also have one of those 25" manual ones, and I would say it is hard to do it smooth for large sizes. You will need two people to do it. One to turn the crank evenly while you fiddle with feeding and peeling lamination films and etc. Motorized would definitely help.

BTW, why print on Optica One (matte finish) and cover with glossy film? You will loose that matte pastel look...
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Johnny_Boy

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Re: coating for display with no glass
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2012, 03:25:58 am »

       Not so........I have rolled this very paper.....but not with gloss. I do agree though that with gloss it would be better to spray a lot of fine coats......Peter

I actually rolled on  Timeless Gloss on Ilford Gold Fiber Silk, and it did not come out smooth at all. Also, I had problem of ink coming off the print on to the roller with Timeless and Gold Fibre Silk. I would recommend spraying, if you want smoother finish.
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dgberg

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Re: coating for display with no glass
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2012, 06:18:51 am »

The most cost effective way to start is to buy a 12oz can of the Clearjet 2000 and do several tests.
No additional equipment required. It is a solvent product so make sure you are outside or in a well ventilated area. With 2 pretty good coats you will use about 1 oz. of spray per square foot of media. So your cost is about $1.00 a square foot. I use it  on Lexjet metallic,Exhibition Fibre,Premium Lustre and Hanamuhle Baryta with excellent results. I also spray it on several matte papers but not to change the sheen. Epsons Hot Press Bright takes 2 light coats without altering that nice velvety finish. Gives it some protection makes the image pop a little more and that's all I want to do. Any more coats with these matte papers just doesn't look natural.
I may get someone that disagrees with me on this and that's fine. You just cannot get that pristine finish on a gloss paper with any water based varnish,spray or rolled. Strain it filter it and it still will leave some kind of unwanted specks of crud. The biggest reason I do not use water based finishes in my cabinetry business is drying time. The solvent based finishes flash dry in under several minutes. The water based finishes can take 10 minutes.
Rarely discussed is solvent versus water based drying time. (These comments refer to gloss paper coatings,not canvas.)
You can have the best filtered spray equipment made but if your drying time is 10 minutes for water based finishes your chances of having something foreign getting on your finish go up 10 fold.
 I buy the Clearstar by the gallon and spray it through a dedicated pressure pot and HVLP system to keep contamination to a minimum. Being a spray guy I spray everything pinned at a slight angle in the booth.
Nothing laying flat. If you try spraying prints laying flat and then leaving them flat to dry expect to throw some away as they will be a magnet for any dust in the air.

Film/vinyl roll laminating has a learning curve,like everything else I guess. Not sure how that small manual machine will work with large prints. All I can tell you is it's not easy to over laminate with gloss laminates even with the best machines.
I started using Seals Print Shield Ultra gloss on several different papers. I was not happy with the gloss finish on most of the papers. The Print Shield product also had a slight texture it added to the paper.
Purchased a roll of polyester gloss film which is as clear and textureless a material as you can find.
You think other laminates are tough to put down this stuff attracts anything and everything in the air.
Static issues you now have to deal with,that's another story.
If you can get some good ones done the finish is beautiful. I just found it not worth the effort,besides I got tired of making 2 prints of everything.
In my search to find the smoothest paper for gloss laminating I ended up with Lexjet Metallic and for a smooth texturless white based gloss paper,Pictorico White Film. Not inexpensive but makes a beautiful print.
These are the 2 papers I use under plexi for face mounting.

Edit to add. The Clearjet solvent products works great on canvas mounted to flat boards where no wrapping is required.
Do not try it on canvas that you stretch unless you want to throw it away.
After spraying regardless of when you go to stretch it the ink will crack through to the base.
1 hour 1 day or 1 week,same results,throw away.
I sent a sample piece of canvas to the Clearjet folks with 3 coats of Clearstar FA that was folded to show them how the ink cracked. A nice letter attached,received no response.

DISCLAIMER: As always your results may vary.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2012, 10:27:01 am by Dan Berg »
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mstevensphoto

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Re: coating for display with no glass
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2012, 11:19:33 am »

wow, thanks for all of the great info.

How do the spray solvent finishes actually stand up for cleaning/durability? The nice thing about some of the canvas finishes is that I feel comfortable selling it as a long term print that can be dusted and cleaned (damp soft cotton cloth only).

My choice of Optica One is for a few reasons - I'll be doing very high contrast BW images and 1)I've got it on hand (one can only stock so many papers before going broke or crazy) 2) I far prefer it's look/feel/range to any of the lightjet papers and 3) I've also never had nice results rolling or spraying a high gloss paper.

I guess that I should clarify that I'm not so much after a high gloss finish (although it would be nice to know how to produce that too) as a solid durable finish for glassless display.

Mark
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dgberg

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Re: coating for display with no glass
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2012, 11:57:50 am »

Now if we are talking wood I can answer this question.
Solvent based finishes have been around pushing nearly a hundred years with proven results.
Water based finishes around 20 years ,but so far they match up pretty well.

One thing the solvent finishes do not give you on canvas is that elasticity/flexibility thus the ink cracking issue.
I personally feel if you sprayed 4 or 5 coats of solvent finish  on canvas you would not have nearly the problem with ink cracking when stretching. The stuff is  just too expensive so I have no plans on trying it. ($100.00 a gal.)
Most non catalized solvent finishes (Like Clearstar) have less then 10% solids which means when you spray a coat 10% sticks and 90% evaporates. You have a very thin finish but still a very good protectant.
Your water based finishes have a much higher solids content probably around 40%.
If the water based finishes are truly 40% solids it will take 4 coats of solvent finish to equal 1 coat of water based varnish.
Another plus for the solvent finishes when spraying paper prints. 2 light solvent top coats will give the print protection and added pop but does not build up a to thickness that starts to affect the overall look and feel of the paper.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2012, 12:05:16 pm by Dan Berg »
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bill t.

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Re: coating for display with no glass
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2012, 01:02:48 pm »

The reason I've been talking about gloss surfaces for unprotected prints is durability.  Painted matte surfaces show scuffing pretty easily, and you can be sure somebody will wipe it down with a dry paper towel sooner rather than later.  I have small, mounted test canvas out in the kitchen that is coated with a super glossy topcoat enamel from Lowes.  It's been wiped a lot of times, dropped on the floor, slid across the counter, splashed with coffee, etc. and the surface still looks good.  Will have to see if cracking or other weirdness develops, that's the scary part.  That high gloss totally pops the image up into baryta-land, it's making me crazy. 
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Kanvas Keepsakes

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Re: coating for display with no glass
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2012, 02:26:50 pm »

I've used both Timeless and Glamour II both gloss and I don't think I like the high shine I get when you hang the print and light points at it.  You can't even see what the print is because of how high the shine is.  I'm thinking Matte varnish instead?  Anyone know if it's a difference in the gloss shine when light points at it?
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Ken Doo

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Re: coating for display with no glass
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2012, 03:07:50 pm »

Mark,

If you're set on using Optica One, and want to protect the print without glass, try hand-rolling with Breathing Color's Timeless.  I've found that Timeless works well on matte fine art papers---I won't use anything else.  It's weird that for some reason, hvlp spraying doesn't work as well for me---the foam roller allows you to really work the Timeless into the paper.

ken

mstevensphoto

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Re: coating for display with no glass
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2012, 05:42:53 pm »

just to revisit this - I've got a high key image that i printed on Lasal Exhibition Luster and sprayed with Moab varnish. after almost dying from the fumes I noticed a small run and re-printed and re-sprayed, this time I can see what looks like more and less coated areas. it's darn hard to perfectly overlap coats on a white background for the entire 24x30" piece -I either put on enough to see and it runs or have to hope that I'm getting it. I'm now three prints in and keep trying to do light coats and rotate 90 degrees as the can says and it still looks uneven. any ideas short of a solvent hvlp spraying system (currently I only spray water based)?

on a related note my local lab said they wouldn't cold laminate my own prints even if I released them from liability. they say that it'll life ink as they position and reposition the laminate. I don't really see that happening with an RC paper - thoughts or ideas?

I'm not set on using optica one, but I've got it and timeless and it seems like a better way to get a better coat. The Lasal Luster looks damn good with the varnish on it, too bad I'm a little sick of wasting material to get one I feel good about giving to a client.
Mark
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Gemmtech

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Re: coating for display with no glass
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2012, 08:28:48 am »

Solvent based finishes have probably been around for a couple hundred years, certainly since the 1800's, shellac cut with ethyl alcohol is most definitely solvent based.  Lacquer is approaching 100 years.  I've only been using them for 40 years.  The water based finishes just aren't there yet as far as durability, though we will have to learn to live with it because car finishes, hard wood floor, furniture are all going water based. :-(.   I'm not so sure we will ever achieve the longevity of the solvent finishes or the chemical resistance, only time will tell.  

A spray can is a good start, once you graduate to a spray gun and compressor you can achieve a consistent, even finish every time.  Just always wear a mask (fresh air if possible) and spray in a booth.

One thing I would be tempted to try is a flex additive like the ones we add to the car finishes to paint the plastic parts, I would imagine it should work great on canvas.  Or just use an automotive acrylic urethane since they tend to be quite flexible.

  
« Last Edit: February 14, 2012, 09:51:43 am by Gemmtech »
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