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Author Topic: Old vs New technology  (Read 4074 times)

Martin Ocando

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Old vs New technology
« on: February 02, 2012, 08:57:56 am »

Hello everyone. Long time since my last post here.

I'm on the look for a camera body for my older son (19 years old), he has become very fond with photography, have been reading and studying a lot, and mostly borrowing my 60D. I was looking into the used market for a Rebel line, but an opportunity just appeared to get a 5D, not the Mark II, but the first one. If it is like they claimed, mint condition with no stains, marks or wear, it might be a good option. They sell it for 730 $.

I wonder, is the 5D sensor good enough, or today's sensor technology is so better, in image quality, dynamic range and noise performance, that it'll be much better to get a reduced frame camera with today's technology than an old FF?

Thanks for your help
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Martin Ocando
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Jim Pascoe

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Re: Old vs New technology
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2012, 09:13:11 am »

The original 5D is an excellent camera and very comparable in image quality with the newer cameras, including the Mk2 and the 1Ds line, let alone the cheaper cameras.  I should think the important consideration would be the effective focal lengths of the lenses he wants to use because obviously there is quite a big difference between full frame and the APS size sensors.  Noise is very low up to 1600.

Jim
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Martin Ocando

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Re: Old vs New technology
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2012, 09:26:28 am »

Actually we have a couple FF lenses, and two more M42 old lenses with an EOS-M42 adapter. We are aware of the focal length difference, and, being a film user for many years, I'm thrilled to go back to the standard focal length. In fact, I'm expecting to give the 60D to my son, and keep the 5D myself.

I think is a good move anyways.
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Martin Ocando
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jalcocer

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Re: Old vs New technology
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2012, 10:43:10 am »

Well, if you already set your mind to it, do it, it is what's gonna make you feel right. If this was my case I would get him a lower end canon dslr and keep the 60d for a while until the oportunity for a 5d, the mark III is around the corner so the chances are the price for the mark II will go even lower.
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Martin Ocando

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Re: Old vs New technology
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2012, 10:58:37 am »

Well, if you already set your mind to it, do it, it is what's gonna make you feel right. If this was my case I would get him a lower end canon dslr and keep the 60d for a while until the oportunity for a 5d, the mark III is around the corner so the chances are the price for the mark II will go even lower.
You got a point there, since it might be difficult to get rid of the 5D, once the 5DIII gets out. Or I'll have to re-sell it really cheap.

I've still haven't made my mind. I'm thinking on a Rebel XS at 300$ and use the extra money for a lens, a 70-200 f:4L maybe.
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Martin Ocando
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jalcocer

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Re: Old vs New technology
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2012, 01:11:12 pm »

You got a point there, since it might be difficult to get rid of the 5D, once the 5DIII gets out. Or I'll have to re-sell it really cheap.

I've still haven't made my mind. I'm thinking on a Rebel XS at 300$ and use the extra money for a lens, a 70-200 f:4L maybe.

That sounds like a good option, the 70-200 f4 would be a good adition and the xs at 300 is a good price also, will help your son to improve his skills so that when you have the 5d II at a good price you can then give him your 60d.

And told you about the 5d II because I'm waiting for the prices to drop and see if I can find a body at a good price.

Good luck
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mbaginy

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Re: Old vs New technology
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2012, 02:56:33 am »

I'm still using my 5D and enjoy almost every aspect of that fine camera.  Be aware of one issue - NO SENSOR CLEANING as with your 60D.  You may not consider this a major issue at the moment, but it is a factor which frustrates me quite often.  I admit, the only cleaning operation I perform myself is, to use a blower when changing lenses.  But quickly, the sensor accumulates dust which can't be blown off with my hand-operated blower.  My local dealer cleans the sensor for free while I enjoy a coffee at a nearby café.  The 5D's sensor is a dust magnet!

While many L lenses are built dust protecting seals, dust will accumulate even without changing the lens.  I suggest you be aware of this issue and somehow come to grips with the sensor-cleaning issue.  I#d not buy another camera body without the ultrasonic sensor cleaning function.  My sisters use the 60D and 450D and have never encountered sensor dust problems.  Even my 20D was less prone to this than the otherwise excellent 5D.

Oh, and one more deficiency: no dedicated mirror lockup button.  You need to dive into the menu.  But that's a general Canon issue.  Their engineers can't seem to design such a fantasy feature (ideally a mechanical MLU switch).  Only Nikon (as far as I know) seem to know that secret.
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K.C.

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Re: Old vs New technology
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2012, 03:13:18 am »

I'm still using my 5D and enjoy almost every aspect of that fine camera.  Be aware of one issue - NO SENSOR CLEANING as with your 60D.  You may not consider this a major issue at the moment, but it is a factor which frustrates me quite often. 

I couldn't scroll to the bottom of the thread fast enough to post. The lack of sensor cleaning makes the parity of image quality of the original 5D a moot point. You'll learn quickly what a huge step forward automatic sensor cleaning was and is should make the investment in a 5D.
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marcmccalmont

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Re: Old vs New technology
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2012, 03:51:01 am »

The Original Eclipse (Eclipse 1?) and sensor swabs, problem solved!
Marc
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Marc McCalmont

Jim Pascoe

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Re: Old vs New technology
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2012, 04:23:58 am »

You got a point there, since it might be difficult to get rid of the 5D, once the 5DIII gets out. Or I'll have to re-sell it really cheap.

I've still haven't made my mind. I'm thinking on a Rebel XS at 300$ and use the extra money for a lens, a 70-200 f:4L maybe.

As often happens when these "What camera should I get" questions come up, the list of wants and original aims tends to drift.  Of course a 5D mk2 is a better camera, and the Mk3 will be better still.  And yes a built in dust cleaner is an advantage, and the bigger screen is better, the battery lasts longer between charges, it has more pixels etc.  But the point is that the 'old' 5d will still take pictures of a quality that exceed the vision of most people using it.  The limiting factor will be the photographer and not the camera.  Once you get to that level anything more is not necessary but just nice to have (which we all like).  So, if you want a full frame Canon DSLR and want one as cheaply as possible, then the 5D will not be a disappointment I can assure you.

Jim

PS Alternatively you could have my 1Ds for £600
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Rob C

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Re: Old vs New technology
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2012, 09:06:31 am »

As often happens when these "What camera should I get" questions come up, the list of wants and original aims tends to drift.  Of course a 5D mk2 is a better camera, and the Mk3 will be better still.  And yes a built in dust cleaner is an advantage, and the bigger screen is better, the battery lasts longer between charges, it has more pixels etc.  But the point is that the 'old' 5d will still take pictures of a quality that exceed the vision of most people using it.  The limiting factor will be the photographer and not the camera.  Once you get to that level anything more is not necessary but just nice to have (which we all like).  So, if you want a full frame Canon DSLR and want one as cheaply as possible, then the 5D will not be a disappointment I can assure you.

Jim

PS Alternatively you could have my 1Ds for £600




The greatest truth in the whole of photographic theory.

Rob C

Jim Pascoe

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Re: Old vs New technology
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2012, 11:47:42 am »




The greatest truth in the whole of photographic theory.

Rob C

Thanks Rob, now if I could just listen to my own advice I could save up for a pension!

Jim
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Martin Ocando

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Re: Old vs New technology
« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2012, 01:56:54 pm »

This is not a newbie "what camera should I get" question. I don't know which "level" that I haven't reached you are talking about. We are always learning. In my case, I've been using film from 1976 (photo & lab), when I got my first camera, a Nikon FE, and I've been longing to have a full frame sensor to use the focal lengths that I like, the way it should. I mean, I want a 55mm to behave like a 55mm, not like a 85mm telephoto. And I don't care about deep DOF. I love shallow DOF. Sadly, when I was robbed a couple of years ago, they took my computer and drives and I lost all my scanned slides, but I did my tad of learning (and still do), back when photography was much more harder and expensive than today. Shooting almost blindfolded, only trusting your meter and your instinct.
I did my homework, and I noticed the 5D have better numbers than the 60D in some areas, being noise performance one of them. It lacks a bit on dynamic range, but just a tiny bit, according to DxOMark. I just wanted to hear from current users of both systems about their personal experience and opinions.

Remember that my original post was that I'm looking for a camera body for my Son, not for me, but if is going to be a FF, then I might use it more than my APS-C. But I will still use both, depending on the subject I'm shooting.


As often happens when these "What camera should I get" questions come up, the list of wants and original aims tends to drift.  Of course a 5D mk2 is a better camera, and the Mk3 will be better still.  And yes a built in dust cleaner is an advantage, and the bigger screen is better, the battery lasts longer between charges, it has more pixels etc.  But the point is that the 'old' 5d will still take pictures of a quality that exceed the vision of most people using it.  The limiting factor will be the photographer and not the camera.  Once you get to that level anything more is not necessary but just nice to have (which we all like).  So, if you want a full frame Canon DSLR and want one as cheaply as possible, then the 5D will not be a disappointment I can assure you.

Jim

PS Alternatively you could have my 1Ds for £600
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Martin Ocando
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Jim Pascoe

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Re: Old vs New technology
« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2012, 02:01:49 pm »

This is not a newbie "what camera should I get" question. I don't know which "level" that I haven't reached you are talking about. We are always learning. In my case, I've been using film from 1976 (photo & lab), when I got my first camera, a Nikon FE, and I've been longing to have a full frame sensor to use the focal lengths that I like, the way it should. I mean, I want a 55mm to behave like a 55mm, not like a 85mm telephoto. And I don't care about deep DOF. I love shallow DOF. Sadly, when I was robbed a couple of years ago, they took my computer and drives and I lost all my scanned slides, but I did my tad of learning (and still do), back when photography was much more harder and expensive than today. Shooting almost blindfolded, only trusting your meter and your instinct.
I did my homework, and I noticed the 5D have better numbers than the 60D in some areas, being noise performance one of them. It lacks a bit on dynamic range, but just a tiny bit, according to DxOMark. I just wanted to hear from current users of both systems about their personal experience and opinions.

Remember that my original post was that I'm looking for a camera body for my Son, not for me, but if is going to be a FF, then I might use it more than my APS-C. But I will still use both, depending on the subject I'm shooting.



Martin, I was not having a go at you personally, just that these threads often go on and on and in the end bear no resemblance to the original question.  If you like full frame then seriously consider the 5D because it is a great camera.  We have the Mk2 as well and also the 1Ds Mk3, so I can compare easily.  Of course the newer cameras are 'better'. but my point was that if you are on a budget then you will not find the 5D is really a limitation on your photography. 

Best wishes

jim
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Martin Ocando

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Re: Old vs New technology
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2012, 02:14:28 pm »

Got it Jim. Thanks. I feel that, if a push a bit more, and if the new MkIII really goes out on Feb 7th, I might bring that 5D a bit lower, if the buyer waits for me, but definitively I want to make the jump. Is a good chance at that price.

I'll keep you posted, and report my findings. Thanks for all your help. Really appreciate it.

Martin, I was not having a go at you personally, just that these threads often go on and on and in the end bear no resemblance to the original question.  If you like full frame then seriously consider the 5D because it is a great camera.  We have the Mk2 as well and also the 1Ds Mk3, so I can compare easily.  Of course the newer cameras are 'better'. but my point was that if you are on a budget then you will not find the 5D is really a limitation on your photography. 

Best wishes

jim
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Martin Ocando
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Wayne Fox

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Re: Old vs New technology
« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2012, 11:41:12 pm »

The Original Eclipse (Eclipse 1?) and sensor swabs, problem solved!
Marc
and plenty of time ...
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Eric Myrvaagnes

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Re: Old vs New technology
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2012, 12:27:24 am »

and plenty of time ...
Amen!

I have spent many hours (cumulative) cleaning the sensor on my 5D when I could have been out taking pictures.
Within the past month I just finally got myself a 5D Mark II, not becase I wanted more pixels (though I don't mind them) or even better noise levels, but mainly because I wanted the built-in sensor shaker.

The original 5D does take great photos, too, however, and if I hadn't used it in the middle of a sand storm at White Sands, I might not have had as bad sensor dust problems.

Eric
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wolfnowl

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Re: Old vs New technology
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2012, 01:57:22 pm »

This may be OT, but my first 35mm camera (when I was 15) was my dad's old Argus - 4 f/stops, 5 shutter speeds, no light meter and 'guess focusing' on the fixed lens.  I used that camera for 3 years before I bought my first SLR (Pentax Spotmatic F).  A lot of the time I couldn't afford film so I just took the camera out and composed images without film.  It taught me how to see.  The point is, if he's serious about photography he'll learn to appreciate the quirks, limits and abilities of whatever camera he has in his hands, and over time he'll trade that camera up to something else.

Evelyn Glennie is a percussionist, a conductor and the only solo percussionist (ever?) for the London Symphony Orchestra.  She's also completely deaf.  She conducts barefoot and she senses vibrations in different parts of her body. When she was a girl and her parents took her to a music teacher, she wasn't sure what to expect.  He looked at her, gave her a drum and told her to come back in a week.  She invested that week exploring the drum, how it felt to hold it, tap on it, what it weighed, what it's dimensions were...  Give your son a camera and tell him to come back in a week.  See what he does with it.

My $0.02

Mike.
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If your mind is attuned t

ErikKaffehr

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Re: Old vs New technology
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2012, 05:15:15 pm »

Hi,

I'm most impressed by your talent for finding interesting stuff and most thankful that you are sharing with us.

So, now I go and find some recordings by Evelyn Glennie...

Best regards
Erik

This may be OT, but my first 35mm camera (when I was 15) was my dad's old Argus - 4 f/stops, 5 shutter speeds, no light meter and 'guess focusing' on the fixed lens.  I used that camera for 3 years before I bought my first SLR (Pentax Spotmatic F).  A lot of the time I couldn't afford film so I just took the camera out and composed images without film.  It taught me how to see.  The point is, if he's serious about photography he'll learn to appreciate the quirks, limits and abilities of whatever camera he has in his hands, and over time he'll trade that camera up to something else.

Evelyn Glennie is a percussionist, a conductor and the only solo percussionist (ever?) for the London Symphony Orchestra.  She's also completely deaf.  She conducts barefoot and she senses vibrations in different parts of her body. When she was a girl and her parents took her to a music teacher, she wasn't sure what to expect.  He looked at her, gave her a drum and told her to come back in a week.  She invested that week exploring the drum, how it felt to hold it, tap on it, what it weighed, what it's dimensions were...  Give your son a camera and tell him to come back in a week.  See what he does with it.

My $0.02

Mike.
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Scott O.

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Re: Old vs New technology
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2012, 02:18:06 pm »

Your title should probably be "Old vs Older Technology".  In my always humble opinion, we are on the cusp of a paradigm shift much greater than when we switched from film to digital.  At least then the cameras were the same size!  With the advent of top quality small cameras - the Fuji-X? and Sony NEX-? lines come to mind - within the next couple of years the large cameras will be relegated to the Smithsonian. If you check what is being done with tiny little mobile phones you will see what I'm talking about.  If you want cutting edge, you will get a camera with a electronic viewfinder, interchangeable lens and a very small footprint.  About the only thing they don't have is the "professional image"!
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