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Author Topic: Pretty good deal on Epson 4900 hard to pass up. Converting 3800 to Cone inks.  (Read 5065 times)

dgberg

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Have been researching Jon Cones ink system for quite some time for my B&W work. To convert my 3800 to his system is about $1200 for ink and the empty refillable carts. Not a cheap number by any means and is the present hold up.
Anyone here that would like to share information on this conversion please chime in.
My choice for its replacement is between the 3880 and 4900.
Was really thinking of the 3880 until I found out Shades of Paper has the price for the 4900 at $1750 with a $500 mail in rebate from Epson. On top of that since I purchased my previous printer from them they are giving an additional $250.00 discount plus $100.00 worth of media. That makes it real darn close to the 3880 price. Problem is there are not that many left and I was not planning on making that decision this week.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2012, 05:14:13 pm by Dan Berg »
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Mark D Segal

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Dan, before spending all that money I think it would be worthwhile digging up any research you can find on whether, these days, the Cone ink system adds commensurate value to B&W results relative to converting the file to B&W in Lightroom, Photoshop or Silver EFEX Pro and printing using the Epson RGB driver or the ABW driver. And when you do this research I recommend only listening to trustworthy people who have actually made the same image side by side using both Cone and conventional Epson inks, and have measured the DMax on both. You would also want to know a lot about how the printer tolerates those inks from people with experience. There was a time years ago when Epson's black was not pure enough and the Cone inks really had an advantage. I wonder to what extent that is still the case.

Concerning the choice between a 4900 and a 3880, much depends on whether you want roll paper capability and the volume of printing you do. If the answers are no and not much, the 3880 may be the preferred option. Print quality from both is excellent.Based on my experience with the 3800 and the 4900, the 3800 could sit for longer without the need for cleaning, but for volume printing the 4900 is a real work-horse with more economical ink (larger cartridges so lower $/ml). You can read my review of the 4900 on this website. Both are fine printers. The 4900 embodies Epson's latest technology, whereas the 3880 is several years back and its gamut is slightly smaller, to judge from reading my profiles in ColorThink Pro; however, at the output quality level of these machines, differences between them really don't hit you in the face.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2012, 04:12:30 pm by Mark D Segal »
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Ken Doo

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Dan,

I would send out for print samples from Jone Cone, particularly of the B&W inkset that interests you most.  You can even send in your own image to be printed.  It's a worthwhile cost to pay before committing to the price of the conversion.  I do think the 3800/3880 would be ideal to convert.  I would pay close attention to the workflow and media choices, though you can pay for having other media types profiled.  Since acquiring the 9900, I'll probably be converting my old 9800 to B&W piezography in a month or so.  4900 sounds like a great deal right now with the rebates...

ken

In retrospect----after converting my 9800 to K7 Piezography, I would not select a 38** series printer to convert to piezography, as there may be issues with pizza wheel marks left by this series of printer.  I think it is more of a design flaw as opposed to the inkset.  I would not hesitate to convert the larger carriage printers from Epson to Piezography.  The B&W prints from my K7 Piezography MPS selenium inkset are fantastic.  They are a step beyond what my 9900 can produce.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2012, 09:29:35 pm by kdphotography »
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dgberg

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Thanks Mark.
Read your review and thanks for your efforts.
The Cone project is still an interesting project for me but the cost versus benefit ratio just may be a killer.
I print through Lightroom and also have silver Efex Pro which i really like. I got my money's worth out of my 3800 as it has been my best printer to date. Since selling my 7900 I really miss having a second roll printer set up with the different blacks. If I get the 4900 I would probably leave a 17" roll of canvas on it all the time.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2012, 04:03:09 pm by Dan Berg »
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Light Seeker

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When I bought my 8300 a year ago I decided I would dedicate my 3800 to black and white printing. It was a good way to upgrade from the 2200 that I've used for dedicated b/w work for years, and it would allow me to make larger prints. I have the refillable carts from InkJet Mall and will soon be loading them up.

Over the last few months I set out to confirm that I still needed a dedicated printer. The 8300 produces excellent prints, and my quest was to see if this platform was "good enough" for b/w for me. I have run Cone Piezography inks for years, both his matte and glossy variants, and I've been very happy with them.

I selected a set of benchmark images and made prints using Canon's b/w mode, True Black and White on the 8300 and Cone Selenium. These were all done on the same paper, Epson Exhibition Fiber, to ensure "apples to apples". I've been in a gloss space lately, btw.

Concurrent with this I also mixed a custom set of b/w inks based on HP's PK (5 dilutions), and most recently I developed something similar using Canons BK and GY (their PK and LK equivalents). Part of what drove me this direction was that Cone's Selenium is too warm for me on gloss. I prefer split tones, with a mix of sepia shadows and neutral highlights. I am right now madly building QTR curves for the Canon based ink-set, and it appears I will be able to do exactly that. I can make prints without the need for colour toners, that I expect to be very lightfast, that for all intents and purposes are neutral. I can warm the shadows and split from there to neutral highlights. It also looks like I will be able to go from cool shadows to warm mid-tones, into neutral highlights. For me, these toning options are part of my creative process.

When I laid all the prints out I observed the following:

  • Prints made with Canon's b/w mode looked nice, until I set the print beside one done using True Black & White. The b/w mode print clearly had a colour cast, one that I did not find particularly attractive. To be fair, this was not a Canon paper, which may or may not have made a difference. I had also tried Epson's Advanced b/w mode in the past and found it to be OK, but not great (relative to Piezography prints).
  • True Black & White prints looked very nice. They were without a colour cast and to my eye appeared neutral. My spectro tells me they are slightly on the cool side, but not by much. Canon has done a good job creating a neutral set of blacks and a very deep black, which is what prompted me to experiment with dilutions of their inks. I could be reasonably happy making b/w prints on my 8300 with True Black & White. You can ensure for example, that prints are made using only the black inks. With Epson's Advanced B/W mode on my 3800 some colour had to be added to create a neutral print.
  • When I placed either of the above prints next to my 2200 Cone selenium prints they both fell short. To my eye the Cone inks produce a print with more detail, depth and punch. IMHO, the Cone inks produce output that is visibly better than the OEM based solutions, Canon in this case.
  • My last benchmark was laying prints made with my own ink mixes next to the three above. I had wondered if 5 dilutions would be enough. Prints made with the HP dilutions are very close to the Cone prints, but not quite as good. With the Canon dilutions I don't see much difference at all. The Canon PK is very deep, which may account for the improvement.

I will be loading my 3800 with a 5 dilution ink-set, based primarily on Canon inks. To my eye, 5 dilutions is now within spitting distance of 7, and the extra two spots mean I can load (for example) different carbon pigments for toning. This flexibility is a big part of why I've chosen to go this direction. I am also encouraged by how well Canon (and HP) have done in the Aardenburg testing (and by extrapolation my dilutions), and I feel I will be in a better place in terms of light fastness.

How much is "good enough" is very individual. I hope that I've broken my thoughts down enough to be useful for those with a different set of priorities.

BTW, if memory serves me right I was getting a Dmax of 2.15 to 2.20 with Cone selenium on glossy media. I believe Epson is in and around 2.30 (depending on media). My Canon based dilute ink-set produces a Dmax of 2.45 on Platine. it looks like I will get upwards of 2.7 on Harman Gloss Baryta, assuming numbers that high are actually valid for my spectro (yes, it's really black!).

BTW, I need to acknowledge Paul Roark for his pioneering work, and on-going help, with the dilute OEM PK approach.

Good luck with your decision. It's a great time to be making black and white prints! We have a number of legitimate options now, to suit a variety of needs.

Terry.
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Light Seeker

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The Cone project is still an interesting project for me but the cost versus benefit ratio just may be a killer.

Have you thought about going with a set of 4 oz bottles and refillable carts, rather than the 8 oz bundle? That would reduce your costs.

Terry.
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dgberg

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Have you thought about going with a set of 4 oz bottles and refillable carts, rather than the 8 oz bundle? That would reduce your costs.

Terry.

Terry,
Thank you for your in depth response. Good stuff!
I believe I may have been looking at the 16 oz. sizes. It was about $850.00 for the ink.
I will go back and look at the smaller quantities.
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