Epson 7900 from the inside - out

[eheffa]

Not really. Take for example professional camera shutters rated to last hundreds of thousands shots. Some of them fail just after a few thousand and some last longer than they are supposed to.  The fact that a few customers have experienced premature shutter failure after the warranty has expired has not put any camera maker out of business.

A number of years ago, the shutter on my 1 1/2 year old 1DsIII failed at about the 40,000 actuation mark.  I bought the camera used so I was out of warranty but Canon Canada replaced the entire mechanism for the price of the basic service fee & no charge for parts.  They didn't have to do that as I technically had no more warranty; but, they won some very valuable loyalty & gratitude from me.  I continue to purchase their lenses & system parts with the belief that they will back their products up with good after sales support.  How much is that worth to them?  I would say that in the final balance, it has paid off very well for them. 

Happy customers = long term brand loyalty = good business.

-evan

[DeanChriss]

A number of years ago, the shutter on my 1 1/2 year old 1DsIII failed at about the 40,000 actuation mark.  I bought the camera used so I was out of warranty but Canon Canada replaced the entire mechanism for the price of the basic service fee & no charge for parts. ... Happy customers = long term brand loyalty = good business.

I also had an out of warranty 1DsIII in which I noticed an odd focusing problem. In poking around on the Internet I found Canon issued a service bulletin for this problem long ago. I contacted them and was told they'd fix it for free. I sent the camera in and had it back in days with a new mirror box and a list of other parts that were replaced. The camera worked great and I was happy.

Should Epson be responsabe for repairs out of warantee?....

No. By definition a warranty defines when the manufacturer is responsible for repairs and what kinds of repairs they are responsible for. It's nice when they go beyond the warranty, but nothing obligates them. Canon used to be strict with their warranty policies but they had what I'd call huge quality issues in successive generations their flagship camera models. The service bulletin list was extensive and included mirrors falling out of 5D bodies and a host of focusing problems on their 1-series. They were so unhelpful with their original LF inkjet printers that users had to form their own self-help Internet Wiki. It's my guess (and it's only a guess) that they saw a huge public relations tsunami coming and that caused them to do a U-turn. They started being extremely helpful, and also started repairing cameras out of warranty and replacing printer heads out of warranty. My guess (again, a guess) is that this was done for survival, not as a gesture of kindness. I doubt Epson is facing such massive problems in multiple product lines, all of which are purchased by many of the same users. In short, they don't have the same incentive.

[Mark D Segal]

Precisely!

Should Epson be responsible for repairs out of warantee?....

David

It depends. If the cause of the failure is a generic product defect, then I would say they should repair gratis out of warranty. This happens all the time with motor vehicles, where the manufacturers sponsor recalls. If it is not a generic defect, it then becomes the company's judgment as to whether flexibility with out-of-warranty issues would be in their interest. They aren't obligated in this instance.

[bupalos]

There have been a number of good responses here and I'm glad to see the thread is out of it's rut. Hopefully folks can understand the point of view of the folks who have been stuck with lemons (if that's what we're talking about) and realize that trying to rationalize the problem away or minimize it by the 'drop in the bucket' defense only makes lemon owners feel worse. Conversely, we lemon owners ought to realize that we may come off as attacking a brand and company and printer that other folks believe in and/or want and/or need to believe in.

If this problem really were as restricted as some think, Epson would be insane not to take care of us squeaky wheels, it would be the best advertising bang for the buck they could get. Mine was out of warranty a few weeks when the first one went. I went in with a very mild attitude, assuming a company I believed in and patronized over 8 years would take care of me. Not only did they steadfastly refuse to fix it as it stood, they refused to let me pay to extend the warranty unless I paid an unknown amount (likely around $2000) to have decision one do the repair and then recertify it. That attitude says to me they feel they have to take a hard line on this, which says to me they feel it's not a tiny QC issue. Also I have to add that none of the tech people I talked to at Epson or the vendor were the least bit surprised I've had two heads failures in less than 2 years. You'd have to hear how unsurprised to get what I'm talking about.

I'm still hopeful for Eric's cleaning attempt, but my six year honeymoon with Epson is over regardless. Canon Lucia EX has caught up to them by all technical measures, and after rebates from both sides I can get a 42" printer with a thousand dollars of ink in it and a nice printing utility for the same price as Epson's 24" with $250 of ink, most of which will be wasted on cleanings over it's first year anyway. So it's time to get real. I'm frankly glad to be over my "belief" in Epson, even as I hope current happy patrons continue to have no reason to lose theirs.

[chaddro]

It depends. If the cause of the failure is a generic product defect, then I would say they should repair gratis out of warranty. This happens all the time with motor vehicles, where the manufacturers sponsor recalls. If it is not a generic defect, it then becomes the company's judgment as to whether flexibility with out-of-warranty issues would be in their interest. They aren't obligated in this instance.

I think this is much easier to do with a company that does their own repairs, like Canon. I had an OLD Infrant ReadyNas NV+ I bought off ebay for my bro (I had one myself). It turned out it had a bad power supply. But Netgear honored Infrant's "recall" with no questions asked. They sent me a replacement for cost of shipping only.

I wonder how many ink cartridges Epson has had to replace because of all the bad ones. There must have been literately thousands of bad cartridges. They redesigned the packaging twice and issued new firmware to help address it. On the PLUS side, Epson customer service has been great to replace any bad (non-expired) cartridge you have at no cost to you (and also paying for return shipping). Obviously Epson is capable of stepping up to fix a bad situation when it arises.

None of us know for CERTAIN that there is a specific defect in either the design of the new heads, or the (IMHO) overly designed capping station. Yes, there are "lemons" it seems. And this is a great concern for any stuck with one.

Just remember, this thread was started with the intent of trying to learn to fix these things ourselves should we find ourselves in just this predicament.

I don't think that Epson ever admitted any kind of fault for the 4000's constant clogging issues (which was most certainly a result of the capping stations design that also let air draw back into the lines). How did they fix it? They didn't... they came out with a replacement model.

We may never get any admission from Epson the 9900 series printers, but we may eventually get a new printer. For myself, I was of the belief that we had the ultra super sweet printer of all time .... and that my 9890 would have any updates/fixes found wanting in the 9900 release years earlier.

Hopefully all the time, effort and money that Eric has spent will come to fruition, and there will be an answer to these "clogged" nozzles.

BTW: After reading my warranty, I find it unpleasant that should Epson come out to replace your head under warranty, that THEY get to keep all the old parts.

[John R Smith]

What I find puzzling is that Epson have for some time produced a virtually clog and trouble free photo printer - the 3800 and 3880 series. You would have thought that the basic design principles which seem to work so well on the 3800 could simply be applied to the larger models too.

John

[DeanChriss]

What I find puzzling is that Epson have for some time produced a virtually clog and trouble free photo printer - the 3800 and 3880 series. You would have thought that the basic design principles which seem to work so well on the 3800 could simply be applied to the larger models too.

I believe the Epson wide format printer using the same technology as the 3800 is the 7800. Both were introduced sometime around 2006. Typically the new technologies originate on the larger models and migrate toward the smaller ones. AFAIK in this case modified technology from the 11880 appeared in the 7900 and 9900, and has since migrated to other printers including 9890, 7890, 4900, etc. Someone please correct me if I've screwed up some facts, but that's my recollection.

[tmphoto]

We may never get any admission from Epson the 9900 series printers, but we may eventually get a new printer.

Off topic but they already due for new printers.  I bet they are working on a 12-line printer with a dedicated line for the MK and PK.

[chaddro]

I believe the Epson wide format printer using the same technology as the 3800 is the 7800. Both were introduced sometime around 2006. Typically the new technologies originate on the larger models and migrate toward the smaller ones. AFAIK in this case modified technology from the 11880 appeared in the 7900 and 9900, and has since migrated to other printers including 9890, 7890, 4900, etc. Someone please correct me if I've screwed up some facts, but that's my recollection.

Hi Dean,

The 3800/3880 both use the "new" pressurized ink system. The 7800 did not. The heads of the 3800 are different than the 9900, and the capping station is also very different. Eric can explain better with his Hands ON experience, but the capping station on the 9900 has a rubber seal for each color pair, while the 3800 uses a single seal for all nozzles (not 100% positive on this- it may be a pair of seals). In the 9900 the capping station MOVES out of the way and the wiper assembly takes it's place during cleaning and printing. However, the 3880 uses a single wide rubber squeegee unlike the little rubber "flap" of the 9900.

-chaddro

[DeanChriss]

chaddro,

Thanks for the clarification. I guess I was thinking about how the head technology migrated through and from the X900 series while  forgetting there's a lot more to a printer than the head! Thanks again.

[Ernst Dinkla]

I believe the Epson wide format printer using the same technology as the 3800 is the 7800. Both were introduced sometime around 2006. Typically the new technologies originate on the larger models and migrate toward the smaller ones. AFAIK in this case modified technology from the 11880 appeared in the 7900 and 9900, and has since migrated to other printers including 9890, 7890, 4900, etc. Someone please correct me if I've screwed up some facts, but that's my recollection.

The big 180 to 360 nozzles per channel step in the development from the 7880 > 7900. It took them 8 years from the Epson 10000 to the 11880 to double the nozzle quantity.  The 11880 has 9 of the 10 channels with 360 nozzles in function, one channel is just not opened up in that head, the x900 generation have all the ten active. For the 7890 generation two channels have been removed. That step from 180 to 360 nozzles per channel was possibly still made too fast but competition from thermal head models with way more nozzles per channel and so more speed did not offer more time. This thread is more directed to failing nozzles but there is also a group of users that can not create the promised speed on the x900 and 11880 printers because banding at lower print resolutions force them to use higher print resolutions.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst
Shareware too:
330+ paper white spectral plots:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm

[Eric Gulbransen]

UPDATE:

The end of March came.  The end of March went.

No ultrasonic cleaning, no printhead in the mailbox.

Today I got a response from my Monday's grumbling email to Vladimir the Printhead Doctor - "The 7900 adapter is expected to arrive on April 16th from our machine shop.  Please be patient, it always takes time."

April 16th will be two months that our 7900 printhead has been in Canada.  Pardon my impatience, in my world this is two month's time

...not this

Again, printing is not my business.  I will give Vladimir the patience he requests, once more, to build his X900 printhead adapter for his ultrasonic cleaning machine.  Not everyone wields their own saw - I get that.  But this is the last stretch for me and Steve.  If the story remains the same after the 16th of this month I am resorting to plan....   

well, let's see, how many alternate printhead cleaning plans has it been by now? 

Five? 

Could we be on the verge of plan 6???

[SacredEarth]

Oh, man this cliff hanger is almost unbearable! A friend of mine who is a master in color management said I could probably purchase a good rip and bypass the clogged green ink and never miss it. (using the cyan and yellow mixture) interesting idea, but isn't a good rip almost the same price as a head replacement? Did i mention he is also in the business of selling hi-end rips? I guess my patience is wearing thin as well.... I am on the verge of reposting my 9900 as-is on eBay again.

[Eric Gulbransen]

Oh, man this cliff hanger is almost unbearable! 

...I guess my patience is wearing thin as well.... I am on the verge of reposting my 9900 as-is on eBay again.

Think of the nice drive through our nation's countryside I will get to enjoy if your patience runs out and you sell me your 9900.  You do realize my stretch of stupidity is not nearly tapped out by now, right?  I've got loads more left.  Why end my insatiable dream of printing dropouts at 24"?  I could double that easily with your machine! 

[SacredEarth]

Funny! It all depends on how good of a April I have! Eric, you will be the first to know if I have some jobs fall through and I get desperate to sell! But my faith is still resting in Vladimir's hands.

[chaddro]

Eric! That's Plan 9 from Outer Space and Bela and Vampira have your head hostage! LOL! 

[Jim Coda]

UPDATE:

The end of March came.  The end of March went.

No ultrasonic cleaning, no printhead in the mailbox.

Today I got a response from my Monday's grumbling email to Vladimir the Printhead Doctor - "The 7900 adapter is expected to arrive on April 16th from our machine shop.  Please be patient, it always takes time."

April 16th will be two months that our 7900 printhead has been in Canada.  Pardon my impatience, in my world this is two month's time

Vladimir is beginning to remind me of the customer service guy in the Discover Card ads ("Hello, my name is Peggy.")  If you haven't seen the ads, just google "My name is Peggy."

[Eric Gulbransen]

Eric! That's Plan 9 from Outer Space and Bela and Vampira have your head hostage! LOL! 

I fear I've lost my head..

[gwhitf]

A friend of mine who is a master in color management said I could probably purchase a good rip and bypass the clogged green ink and never miss it. (using the cyan and yellow mixture) interesting idea, but isn't a good rip almost the same price as a head replacement?

I wonder if a RIP like ColorBurst could bypass the LLK?

[tmphoto]

Think of the nice drive through our nation's countryside I will get to enjoy if your patience runs out and you sell me your 9900.  You do realize my stretch of stupidity is not nearly tapped out by now, right?  I've got loads more left.  Why end my insatiable dream of printing dropouts at 24"?  I could double that easily with your machine!

Thinking about a  short drive to your place if you then sell me your 7900.