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Author Topic: Epson 7900 from the inside - out  (Read 1082870 times)

clic

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #380 on: February 17, 2012, 08:34:44 pm »

Actually I have gotten the Data on Lula as well, foraging through all the posts since June 2011. Ideally I would have gotten back to Oct 2008, when these printers got out, but I was starting to get a headache and this issue seems to have started to get strong last summer.  I have also gotten data from AIS and ASMPFA.  

I could do a litany of things, but at some point one's time become better used somewhere else.  About Lula, the presumption is that anybody who comes on Lula these days and has a relevant problem is likely to see this thread and express her/his case on it, since it has been consistently on the top of the list.  This is how I actually found 2 other cases on top of Eric. I found another two on another thread which has dried now.  

If somebody wants to disprove my case by coming up with a verified list of people having had head failures with Cyans, Magentas, Yellow, Blacks, Orange, (so far I only have Eric for Yellow and Black) please step up to the plate, and I will stand corrected in total humility.  Until then I'll have to assume that my theory has legs.

Of course if those cases were to surface, the cause would then seem to have more possible origins, but the problem would still remain, only bigger with a larger pool, because no matter what, there does not seem to be such a percentage of head failures that require a head change in previous generations.  In those days if you had a terrible clog, worse case scenario you would used some cleaner in a cartridge and that would take care of it in 99% of the cases, and the remaining 1% would get cured by a manual unclogging.  Most of the time letting the head sit on Windex for a while would have put you back in business in the first place.


Does anybody know if it possible to find out how many people have come to this thread, of course only counting once the folks who came 29 times?
« Last Edit: February 17, 2012, 08:38:18 pm by clic »
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enduser

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #381 on: February 17, 2012, 09:43:39 pm »

Shouldn't the problem be identified as clogging or electrical before going much further with this discussion?
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #382 on: February 17, 2012, 09:46:56 pm »

Shouldn't the problem be identified as clogging or electrical before going much further with this discussion?

You think after 23 pages of inconclusive discussion with close to zero probability of resolution about exactly these issues it shouldn't kinda get to wind-down yet?
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Eric Gulbransen

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #383 on: February 17, 2012, 11:23:16 pm »

Shouldn't the problem be identified as clogging or electrical before going much further with this discussion?

I understand you enduser.  And I agree.  When my head gets back here after this ultrasonic head cleaning procedure, and it still has clogs (if it still has clogs) - we will then have some concrete evidence as to whether or not these "clogs" we have been discussing are even clogs at all.  My bet is if this is the case, these 23 pages of inconclusive discussion might actually arrive at some helpful "resolution".  That would be great actually.  And that is the single greatest reason I sent my head out for this procedure earlier this week.  Enough guessing already...

Mark D Segal

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #384 on: February 18, 2012, 08:20:17 am »

I understand you enduser.  And I agree.  When my head gets back here after this ultrasonic head cleaning procedure, and it still has clogs (if it still has clogs) - we will then have some concrete evidence as to whether or not these "clogs" we have been discussing are even clogs at all.  My bet is if this is the case, these 23 pages of inconclusive discussion might actually arrive at some helpful "resolution".  That would be great actually.  And that is the single greatest reason I sent my head out for this procedure earlier this week.  Enough guessing already...

Eric, nothing I said above diminishes the value of the step you have taken to send the head for another round of intervention, because at this point I sense you have little to lose. That procedure either works or it doesn't, and then you always have the choice of taking the matter up with Epson's authorized service facility to see whether that could yield any useful outcome at a reasonable cost. If the ultrasonic cleaning works - yes in that case it would be reasonable to conclude it was just extremely stubborn dried gunk. But my skepticism about that goes right back to the beginning of the sequence of events underlying this whole saga. And if it is not dried gunk that this outfit succeeds in dislodging, I'm afraid what I said above may be the bottom line at this point. But as you say, let's see..........and for your sake I hope for the best.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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rmyers

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #385 on: February 19, 2012, 02:31:46 pm »

If the head comes back from the ultra sonic cleaning and still doesn't work, will that prove that the head is not clogged with ink or other substance(s)and that it is an electrical problem, or could it also cast doubt on the effectiveness of the ultra sonic cleaning?  An autopsy may be required to actually see if the head has no ink or other residue in it.  Not sure this is even possible as I don't know how the head is constructed.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #386 on: February 19, 2012, 02:58:19 pm »

If the head comes back from the ultra sonic cleaning and still doesn't work, will that prove that the head is not clogged with ink or other substance(s)and that it is an electrical problem, or could it also cast doubt on the effectiveness of the ultra sonic cleaning?  An autopsy may be required to actually see if the head has no ink or other residue in it.  .........

I agree. Unless it comes back working, we don't really know what the problem is or how it started.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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chaddro

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #387 on: February 19, 2012, 04:14:45 pm »

I did some reading on the ultrasonic cleaning. Some head designs are very suitable for the process especially solvent based printers where the size of the nozzles seem to be much larger. But it also appears that the Epson heads can be damaged during this cleaning process if too much pressure is applied during the flush/back flush so there is STILL a chance that a nozzle can be obstructed because the force necessary to clear the clog would damage it.

Interestingly, these heads are designed by physicists, and diving further into the science and design behind piezoelectric heads, I found that the nozzles should have a life span on the order of 1 Billion to 10 Billion drops (this higher limit was described as zero failure acceptable). Another reference described this life span as about 5,000 hours. Also, Piezoelectric heads do not suffer from heat like bubble jet (bubble jet heads deteriorate with time due to the affects of high heat and eventually need replacing), so the idea that the Epson nozzles over heat and fail seems insignificant. Nozzle failure was attributed almost entirely to air trapped in the nozzle, or dried ink obstructing the nozzle usually cause by poorly capped heads. I found very little reference to "electrical failure" and the couple that did gave no further explanation.

From an industrial point of view, I found machines using the "older" heads (with 1 to 4 heads in the machines!) and some with recommendation to replace heads every 1-1/2 to 2 years. These industrial machines have been designed with head replacement in mind. I think most of us would be printing FAR FAR less and should expect years of use from our machines. New head: $700.

The 9900 and newer 9890 have been around for 3 years, right? In that time we've seen issues with ink carts being bad and Epson swapped these out without question until FINALLY changed the packaging. Even so, I haven't found a definitive explanation as to why these cartridges were getting damaged. Oh, and there were some firmware updates that were supposed to help with unrecognized carts. I myself have had 4 cartridges exchanged since my purchase last August.

Of more interest to THIS thread is the recent (Nov 2011) firmware update that now allows for Paired Power Cleaning - but it did take them some three years to get around to adding this! I can imaging endless complaints to Epson's Techs when told "Please Sir, do a power cleaning... Still one color clogged? Well, then do another power cleaning. No, no way to clean just that one color, sorry Sir." The new firmware was a small concession to the fact that a nozzle pair can get really fudged up!

Hey Eric!
Perhaps when you shinny clean head comes back you can give us some pictures of how well that capping station covers the heads? It looks like there is a seal for each color pair. I wonder how resilient that seal is to damage and if it can be knocked out of alignment somehow.



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Eric Gulbransen

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #388 on: February 19, 2012, 06:59:57 pm »

Chaddro the google mercenary of hidden information, strikes again. 

If this head comes back with clogs I plan to do an autopsy on it.  Have to figure out how to take pics of things so incredibly small.  Since all my gear was stolen in December all I have to shoot with is my wife's D700 and an 18-200.  I am open to ideas if anyone has any.

Back to the capping station making a proper seal on the face of the head - if you ask me this aims a finger back at having a good wiper blade.  Splooge left on the face will definitely compromise your capping station's seal. 

Yes I plan to take pictures Chaddro.  Video too.  I've been working on camera angles up inside the machine.  The capping station moves differently than the wiper cleaner assembly.  The wiper travels up and down.  The capping station moves forward and backward.  This will all be clear soon enough.  Right now I'm saving my ink for cleanings with a purpose other than just filming.  Waiting to hear back from my friend Vladimir on Monday.  He should have our head by now.

Eric Gulbransen

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #389 on: February 22, 2012, 01:50:41 am »

UPDATE:

1 - Vladimir from printheaddoctor.com contacted me this morning.  They are designing/building a bracket to mount the X900 head to their cleaning machine now.  No idea how long this will take, but things are in motion on the printhead cleaning front.

2 - Who did I say is the google mercenary?  Chaddro?  Well guess who emailed me last night with a hot tip on a brand new printhead listed on ebay - for 800 bucks?  That's right.  Chaddro.  So I instantly shifted my ever so calculating money saving mentality into high gear and contacted the seller.  I don't know what's wrong with me, like I'm not broke enough already with this flipping (beautiful, sorry) Epson 7900 from the Twilight Zone.  So I emailed the seller and asked for a break.  Told him I'd send him cookies if he said yes.  "Mo's" response was classic.  "I have been there, and I totally get it.."  Next email I got was the sale going through at Mo's discounted price.  

...and here is where it gets interesting;

I thanked Mo this morning by telling him a bit about our story here, on Luminous Landscape.  I just came home to his response - apparently he read this entire thread - "Dude I'm hooked!  I can't wait to see what happens next!"  And then Mo went on to tell me that his father actually lives in Oakland (thirty miles from here), and has worked in the service/repair industry for thirty years.  You wanna know what's been his specialty for the past decade?  

Come on dammit I know you want to know.

That's right, Epson printers.  Mo's dad has been one of the only two (that's right, I said 2) Epson service techs serving ALL of California, parts of NV and OR.  The story actually gets better.  In fact it gets way better, but it's not my story to tell.  Let's just say for now, maybe I better get on this head swapping video tutorial sooner than later.

Thank you Chaddro

raydee

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #390 on: February 22, 2012, 06:19:50 am »

You sure know how to keep tension in an evolving storyline... keep the updates coming ;)
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na goodman

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #391 on: February 22, 2012, 08:21:45 am »

I can't believe it! This may make up for your "genius" friend taking his paper home. That was heartbreaking. I can hardly wait. I'd tell you my gut feeling of what is going to happen but I'll keep that to myself. I hope they get that bracket built fast.
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eleanorbrown

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #392 on: February 22, 2012, 10:50:18 am »

Yellow yellow yellow! I have had to do so many power cleans to clear JUST the yellow on my 7900 it's pathetic. In addition, I've had numerous 350 ml carts of all colors that...brand new...wont  work...bad chips. In addition the button that loads the paper is tricky...sometimes I have to wiggle it back and forth a little to get it to connect.

I also have the 9880 and 7800 and by far have more problems with my 7900. Eleanor

Actually I have gotten the Data on Lula as well, foraging through all the posts since June 2011. Ideally I would have gotten back to Oct 2008, when these printers got out, but I was starting to get a headache and this issue seems to have started to get strong last summer.  I have also gotten data from AIS and ASMPFA.  

I could do a litany of things, but at some point one's time become better used somewhere else.  About Lula, the presumption is that anybody who comes on Lula these days and has a relevant problem is likely to see this thread and express her/his case on it, since it has been consistently on the top of the list.  This is how I actually found 2 other cases on top of Eric. I found another two on another thread which has dried now.  

If somebody wants to disprove my case by coming up with a verified list of people having had head failures with Cyans, Magentas, Yellow, Blacks, Orange, (so far I only have Eric for Yellow and Black) please step up to the plate, and I will stand corrected in total humility.  Until then I'll have to assume that my theory has legs.

Of course if those cases were to surface, the cause would then seem to have more possible origins, but the problem would still remain, only bigger with a larger pool, because no matter what, there does not seem to be such a percentage of head failures that require a head change in previous generations.  In those days if you had a terrible clog, worse case scenario you would used some cleaner in a cartridge and that would take care of it in 99% of the cases, and the remaining 1% would get cured by a manual unclogging.  Most of the time letting the head sit on Windex for a while would have put you back in business in the first place.


Does anybody know if it possible to find out how many people have come to this thread, of course only counting once the folks who came 29 times?
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Eleanor Brown
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Ken Doo

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #393 on: February 22, 2012, 10:51:34 am »

You just have to love the character names in this dramatic saga (okay, so maybe everyone is snoozing except those of us with 79/99** printers), Vladmir and Mo...  Next scene opens with Eric walking down a dark seedy alleyway, Mo's shadowy figure seen just ahead.  "Hey buddy, wanna buy an Epson printhead?"   ;D

I look forward to hearing/seeing the next installment, Eric.  Thank you for the great video---while I would not myself dig into my 9900 as you have, I certainly have adjusted my maintenance/attention paid to my 9900.  Inspecting, cleaning, and/or replacing the wiper assembly is very easy, and something I'll be doing every few months.

I'll be chipping in a small donation to your 7900 repair----or perhaps more aptly, filming the maintenance pointers videos for the 79/9900 series printers.   :)
Fyi for others wanting to help with Eric's printer exploits, Eric's paypal address from his video is:  eric@GoTagTeam.com

Ken
« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 12:48:43 am by kdphotography »
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na goodman

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #394 on: February 22, 2012, 11:13:46 am »

Eleanor are you talking about when it says to push the pause button to load? One thing I have learned over the years is if you want your paper to load correctly never push the pause button. I've been on site with Decision One techs and they say the same thing. If that is your situation try without pushing the pause button. I tell all my clients never push the pause button, just let the printer load the paper. If you don't push it the printer just goes ahead and loads correctly.
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eleanorbrown

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #395 on: February 22, 2012, 11:17:58 am »

I didn't even know you could push the pause button to load...what I push is the bottom arrow button below the "OK" button in the center.  Is this correct? thanks, Eleanor

Eleanor are you talking about when it says to push the pause button to load? One thing I have learned over the years is if you want your paper to load correctly never push the pause button. I've been on site with Decision One techs and they say the same thing. If that is your situation try without pushing the pause button. I tell all my clients never push the pause button, just let the printer load the paper. If you don't push it the printer just goes ahead and loads correctly.
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Eleanor Brown
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na goodman

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #396 on: February 22, 2012, 11:23:15 am »

I don't want to distract from this thread so I'll send you a PM if that's ok.
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chaddro

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #397 on: February 22, 2012, 02:47:10 pm »

Eric! I gotta say man, you're making me blush! LOL! I hope Mo's dad can fill in some of the gaps of our knowledge!

Unfortunately, I've only touched the tip of the iceberg. I broke up with my gal some time ago and no longer have access to Korean, Japanese and Mandarin/Cantonese - she was multi-lingual, and her father was a retired translator... we here in the west have no idea the amount of info out of our reach in those markets.   

Anyway, here's something to ogle at while we wait on your head: The MOTHER LOVING GODZILLA of all CIS!

http://factory.dhgate.com/continuous-ink-supply-system/mdb05003-large-bottled-bulk-ink-system-for-epson-7900-/-9900-printer-continuous-ink-system-ciss-p45531241.html

Click the link for some interesting photos. 1700ml ink tanks!

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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #398 on: February 22, 2012, 05:32:22 pm »

 

Anyway, here's something to ogle at while we wait on your head: The MOTHER LOVING GODZILLA of all CIS!

http://factory.dhgate.com/continuous-ink-supply-system/mdb05003-large-bottled-bulk-ink-system-for-epson-7900-/-9900-printer-continuous-ink-system-ciss-p45531241.html

Click the link for some interesting photos. 1700ml ink tanks!


But the real question is are these inks clog free??????????? ;D
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chaddro

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #399 on: February 22, 2012, 06:27:41 pm »

But the real question is are these inks clog free??????????? ;D

Hi Alan... I have no idea about the quality or archival nature of the ink they make. But it seems few (if any) of these industrial versions of our Epson printers use Epson ink. Of note, they are selling dye, pigment, solvent and dye-sublimation inks. I was just amazed at the size of their CIS unit and the fact it provides a vacuum based system like our cartridges.

Here is the manufacture's site, and the godzilla printer (much like a GS 6000) that they make:

http://www.3vdg.com/en/ITTEN%20Photojet-1620.asp

Of note is this statement: "There is a self-adaption structure between the print head and cap station.When the printer is shut down,the cap station and pump will be sealed automatically so that the print head can be kept in a humid condition."

As I pointed out much earlier in this thread, the Epson piezo heads are being use widely in non-epson manufactured printers. What really drew my interest was the different approach to capping/replacement and repair. From everything I've dug into and read, so much leads me to believe that the capping station is of paramount importance in maintaining a clog free printer and so many of these other market machine have really robust looking capping solutions.

I think so much of the success of the 3800 has been due to a well designed capping station. I had a 4000, and the capping station was easy to knock out of alignment. This is why I am so curious about Eric's Epic. If the capping station is off by 1/2 mm it could have a huge impact on the seal of the head. From what I can see, each nozzle pair has it's own seal.
If this is true, and a single pair is miss-aligned, then you will have trouble with that pair.

My 9890 has had problems with the Yellow (like Elanor's). I've used MORE YELLOW than any other color. Yellow, the blasted color that supposed to outlast every other by nearly double!

It is very easy to examine the capping station on my other printers to make sure the sealing gasket is in good shape... Not so easy on these 79/9900 printers. I was lucky 4000 owner because my machine kept a good seal. Didn't keep it from drawing air back into the ink line when not in use, but these new capping stations appear to be design to give a tight seal. Can the seals be adjusted? Were they miss-aligned by some poor sob working for $2 an hour at the end of his 60+ hour work week?

I see absolutely NO reason for my 9890 to clog any more than my 3800. It was my amazement with my 3800 that encourage me to get the 9890 over a 9880 to replace my 7800. I expected the same performance if not better.

Off to see the wizard...

[edit] Speaking of capping stations, look at this:

http://www.3vdg.com/en/serviceshow.asp?id=317

« Last Edit: February 22, 2012, 06:33:44 pm by chaddro »
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